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So, I've decided to compile a list of everything I dislike about Far Cry 2

-It's set in Africa but there's everyone but Africans there. I mean there's Brits, Irish, Yanks, Aussies, Russkies and the like. They've even got Punjabs, Asians, a heap of Latinos and a goddamn Hungarian born Israeli. But for an African country there seems to be a distinct shortage of, well, Africans. Thank you unneccessary outrage over Resident Evil 5.

-Despite playing a veteran Soldier/Intel officer/cop/whatever turned Merc, you can't seem to keep a gun running for more than five or six fire-fights without having to a) go and pick up a brand new replacement from the gun-dealer or b) buying a maintenance manual (which only extends the life of the weapons) from the gun-dealer. Both of which are a simply RIDICULOUS price (when the price of a maintenance manual for a car is measured in double-digit quantities of raw diamonds, then you know that the local market needs some readjusting. And when you have a jam, what do you need to do? Pummel the reload button until you can clear it. Stupid. The worst though? A "jam" on an RPG. Where the rocket hang-fires, drops to the ground infront of you, then ignites, suddenly spinning and carooming off everything until it detonates (usually under your feet/car).

-The world is too static/elastic. And yes, I know that makes little sense. The world is far too elastic in it's attempts to remain static - guard posts are repopulated mere minutes after being cleared (even if you are still there, the new shift mysteriously teleports in), you can't kill anyone important or do anything to risk the story. I mean really, there's the gun-dealer in his little store out in the middle of the wilderness (actually, he's magically in whichever of his 9 or so stores you happen to go into - I want to get his mode of transport), so what's to stop me from popping him, then blowing/prying open the door and going into his backroom where I can see all those lovely goodies on display? Instead of just being forced to purchase low rent crap until I've done his fetch quests.

-On PC the buddy system is fairly pointless, but I feel I should use it. Because you can quicksave anytime (instead of just at safehouses), the rescue system (where a friend you've made will rescue you when injured) just seems like a waste of time as you can just quickload instead. I should probably let it go through though, just to see what happens.

-The safehouses also become irrelevant due to the "save anywhere" mechanic, but that's not my biggest issue with them. Why do I have to buy a special "weapon storage crate" from the gun-dealer (again for an extortionate price) just to be able to create a weapon stash at my safehouses. Why can't I just use the shelves which are already in the safehouses? And on that note, why do I have to buy a primary weapon storage crate, a secondary weapon storage crate and a special weapon storage crate, when I'm fairly sure that with some rudimentary Tetris skills I could fit them all in one.

-Everyone hates you. There are no friendly forces in this game (except for your buddies who appear when you are "killed"). There are not even neutral forces (except in the main city which is under ceasefire, but everyone there will still shoot you in a heartbeat should they get the opportunity). No, every single goddamn person in this game is your enemy and will attempt to kill you on sight. Oh and every single goddamn person in the game world is also a heavily armed mercenary. Nothing drives you nuts more than driving along and seeing an old, rusted Nissan Bluebird coming towards you and suddenly screeching to a halt and the Merc driving it then jumping out and lighting you up with his Minimi. So you can either blaze past (can't shoot while driving), or hop out and get in a fight with him. Either way, you're losing some health.

-Everyone is faster than you. The aforementioned Nissan Bluebird which looks like it would fall apart if the last few flakes of paint fell off will easily catch up to your offroad buggy. So will the rusty old Land Rovers w/the Minimi mounted on the cab. And so will every other vehicle in the game. Even when you blast through a manned checkpoint at 100km/h, before you know it, suddenly the rusted old Landie which was parked there with no one in it will be pulling a Pitt-maneouvre on you while the gunner lights you up. You can outrun people on foot, but that really doesn't help when everyone is in a vehicle.

-Why the hell have people decided to leave 221 briefcases with uncut diamonds in them around the area? And why are they fitted with radio transponders and a low-frequency audio beacon? On the plus side, this must be the first time in a LONG LONG time (since Vice City IIRC, wait no - Crackdown, but in that game, it was the whole game) that a collectible hunt actually had a definite in-game effect, in that it is one of your major revenue streams.

Add to these things like some occassionally poor combat (how many shots in the face with a G3 can someone take), the terrible voice acting and a concerningly slow/loose plot... And I wonder, why the hell am I still playing this game? And why the hell am I playing it to the exclusion of nearly everything else?

And a final question - at any point do actual factions develop (ie, some dudes are friendly and others enemies) depending on how you play/who you back? Or is it always just everyone trying to kill you regardless?

Welcome to ... two months ago? lol. Did you even read the old thread? Everything has already been mentioned.

Hilariously you can't even read a manual; to clear a jam you just HOLD the reload button. Tapping it would only make it take longer.

Bad AI and SoD breaking game mechanics in a Far Cry game ? That's as impossible as invincible Trigen monkeys that can telekinetically punch you from ten feet away.

1. Allot of your complaints about not making sense can easily be explained by one thing: balance.
More powerful guns break down to balance you using them. Though, the quickly-respawing guardpost thing has been acknowledged by the developers. However, that's why the diamond prices are there. Yes, they're bloated but you are playing a game, not real life. Same goes for the cases.

2. What do you mean there are no africans? Have you even played the game? Allot of the local militia are africans, plus the leaders.

3. Yes, you can't kill certain characters, with the exception of your buddies. How many other games allow you to do that again and don't suck because of it?

4. Why are there 221 briefcases scattered around? Because its war and sometimes stuff like that can get lost in it.

Zixinus wrote:1. Allot of your complaints about not making sense can easily be explained by one thing: balance.
More powerful guns break down to balance you using them. Though, the quickly-respawing guardpost thing has been acknowledged by the developers. However, that's why the diamond prices are there. Yes, they're bloated but you are playing a game, not real life. Same goes for the cases.

Forgive me Zixinus, but that's a rather half-assed rebuttal. You can't simply wave "it's game balance" as some kind of magic wand. The problem is that it is unnecessary and / or intrusive attempts at game balance. Else it would have fit in seamlessly, and we wouldn't have cared.

4. Why are there 221 briefcases scattered around? Because its war and sometimes stuff like that can get lost in it.

I'm sorry, but I cannot for an instant buy that no-one but me in this war-torn country actually possesses a goddamn receiver? Like it or not, for all the Jackal's machinations, the driving force in a mercenary war at ground level is money. There should be a shitload of incentive for people to hoover up these things as soon as possible (but no; apparently, it's no even a secret that the suitcases are out there!)

I would hardly say that Far Cry 2 is perfect, but its pretty damn solid, especially when compared to other shooters released recently.

Forgive me Zixinus, but that's a rather half-assed rebuttal. You can't simply wave "it's game balance" as some kind of magic wand. The problem is that it is unnecessary and / or intrusive attempts at game balance.

Which ones were? The fact that your guns wore down and jammed? What else could be as effective and simple?

I'm sorry, but I cannot for an instant buy that no-one but me in this war-torn country actually possesses a goddamn receiver?

They do, judging by the fact that you often find corpses next to briefcases.

There should be a shitload of incentive for people to hoover up these things as soon as possible (but no; apparently, it's no even a secret that the suitcases are out there!)

Yes, however there is another shitload of incentive to not try their luck: namely the two very hostile factions, both ordered to shoot first and ask questions later. Anyone snooping around is likely to get shot, thus diamond collecting is a bit discouraged.

Zixinus wrote:

Forgive me Zixinus, but that's a rather half-assed rebuttal. You can't simply wave "it's game balance" as some kind of magic wand. The problem is that it is unnecessary and / or intrusive attempts at game balance.

Which ones were? The fact that your guns wore down and jammed? What else could be as effective and simple?

A system that actually simulates jamming in a reasonably accurate or plausible manner, instead of a caricature thereof (and one that ties into the utter weirdness we see in the arms dealer system, to boot).

I'm sorry, but I cannot for an instant buy that no-one but me in this war-torn country actually possesses a goddamn receiver?

They do, judging by the fact that you often find corpses next to briefcases.

Indeed, you sometimes find that. Mostly, however, I've only had to stroll over to an abandoned house, kick in the door, and take the stuff. One of those were even next to the mercenaries' compound. Idiotic.

Yes, however there is another shitload of incentive to not try their luck: namely the two very hostile factions, both ordered to shoot first and ask questions later. Anyone snooping around is likely to get shot, thus diamond collecting is a bit discouraged.

I've only played the game for a couple of hours, but mostly, there was zero risk taking involved; thus, unless the game changes later on, your statement is simply incorrect.

The game does change quite a bit later on - I look at it as the mercs were probably charged with guarding the house containing the diamond - perhaps they don't even know there are diamonds in it - just that they must protect the briefcase. Also from the banter I've heard, the mercs are being WELL paid (Finish this tour and you'll be able to send your kid to any private school in the world, et. al) plus - who would go rooting around the bush in a place like that looking for diamonds - again it's likely the diamonds actually belong to someone who is going to retrieve them at a later time - also they may be broadcasting on a frequency that - unless you have a certain kind/brand of GPS, you would not normally use.


Though the magical arms dealer teleportation device is interesting. I expect the HAB will be interrogating the shop owner momentarily. SIERED does not take kindly to people posessing superior tactical tech without sharing it.

A system that actually simulates jamming in a reasonably accurate or plausible manner, instead of a caricature thereof (and one that ties into the utter weirdness we see in the arms dealer system, to boot).

Great. How?

How would it be possible to simulate weapon degradation in a digital game accurately and plausibly? I have not fired much military-grade weapons, so I don't know how they jam and what you do when it does. Do you?

Because saying "It's not my job to know that or figure that out" isn't exactly a valid argument.

Indeed, you sometimes find that. Mostly, however, I've only had to stroll over to an abandoned house, kick in the door, and take the stuff. One of those were even next to the mercenaries' compound. Idiotic.

So? You expect EVERY diamond briefcase to be expertly placed so it makes 100% sense? Don't you think that you are a bit unreasonable here?

I've only played the game for a couple of hours, but mostly, there was zero risk taking involved; thus, unless the game changes later on, your statement is simply incorrect.

That's because you found diamonds off-road, away from enemies. There are diamonds near enemy bases or within such places, or diamond cases guarded by enemies.

A good deal of the diamonds are just well-hidden, forgotten or simply very difficult to access. There are plenty of diamonds that are I had a map and it was still a pain to get some of the diamonds.

Again, the reason I gave makes sense in-universe. However, as a gameplay mechanic, the idea of collectibles is that it should be easy to collect.

Maybe the diamonds are spred around because....it's a goddamn video game? How many games over the past two decades have placed a number of items in secret locations for you to find? It's easier to find them in Far Cry 2 than in a lot of games anyway simply because you've got the receiver that tells when you're passing by, instead of having to painfully search every nook and cranny or accidently stumble upon a briefcase.

Zixinus wrote:

A system that actually simulates jamming in a reasonably accurate or plausible manner, instead of a caricature thereof (and one that ties into the utter weirdness we see in the arms dealer system, to boot).

Great. How?

Very easily: don't make the weapon completely useless after a few fights. Keep the rest of the mechanism as it is, just don't make guns rot the instant they're in the player's hands.

How would it be possible to simulate weapon degradation in a digital game accurately and plausibly? I have not fired much military-grade weapons, so I don't know how they jam and what you do when it does. Do you?

Because saying "It's not my job to know that or figure that out" isn't exactly a valid argument.

I'm not after simulationism, as should be obvious from reading my position on the matter. You seem to view it as an either/or prospect; it's not. That's the problem with game design, and with Far Cry 2 here for that matter - in these factors, my problem is that the gamist elements are too jarring, not that there are gamist elements (which is pretty much a given for any game).

So? You expect EVERY diamond briefcase to be expertly placed so it makes 100% sense? Don't you think that you are a bit unreasonable here?

I'm getting tired of your strawmen here. I do not expect every diamond briefcase to be placed anywhere, expertly or otherwise - I made no such inclusive statement. I was happy to see that one briefcase placed on a desk under guard. Even if the others had been a bit more off-road, I'd have had no problem. But just placing them squarely in the path of any schmuck following the road would ensure that it'd be gone in short order. Even then, there'd still be no problem if the diamonds weren't tied into the inane arms dealer system, which breaks the illusion in so many ways.

I repeat, the problem I had wasn't with the gamist elements, but with the fact that they in this case don't blend with the rest of the game.

That's because you found diamonds off-road, away from enemies. There are diamonds near enemy bases or within such places, or diamond cases guarded by enemies.

A good deal of the diamonds are just well-hidden, forgotten or simply very difficult to access. There are plenty of diamonds that are I had a map and it was still a pain to get some of the diamonds.

Again, the reason I gave makes sense in-universe. However, as a gameplay mechanic, the idea of collectibles is that it should be easy to collect.

...and that, again, is the trouble. It's a gamist mechanism, yes. But it's a stupid mechanism to use exclusively, yet you're forced to use it because it's artificially promoted by these ridiculously transparent methods. What's next, bulletproof hyenas jumping you if you leave the designated road? I can almost hear you as you'd be tripping over yourself to explain how it, as a "gameplay mechanic", is vital because we can't have players walking around willy-nilly. It'd make as much sense.

No, you could forgo all that and make a tiered system in which diamonds were simply a very difficult to get resource among others. Instead, you get this sort of pseudo-logic in which there's only one all-coveted method of payment, one that can be found everywhere except in the pockets of the mercenaries who're, you know, paid in it.

I dunno, maybe I'm just being cranky. I tried Far Cry 2 at an Internet café and was at first very impressed by how the intro pulled you into the atmosphere of African civil war. But when the game proper began, its strongly simulationist presentation was such that the gamist contrievances that existed stood out like traffic lights (or traffic signs. Colour coded. In English). These factors could have easily been solved in some other more immersive way, and indeed, in many other respects Far Cry 2 has implemented such solutions. So I guess it's the nature of the game itself that makes it so vulnerable to cracks in the illusion; a sort of Uncanny Valley, if you will.

chitterling wrote:Maybe the diamonds are spred around because....it's a goddamn video game? How many games over the past two decades have placed a number of items in secret locations for you to find? It's easier to find them in Far Cry 2 than in a lot of games anyway simply because you've got the receiver that tells when you're passing by, instead of having to painfully search every nook and cranny or accidently stumble upon a briefcase.

Maybe that's something both I and Zixinus agreed on? Maybe, furthermore, you're just a moron who doesn't even grasp the argument itself - that precisely the fact that it is easier to find is the one I'm complaining about?

No, wait, there's no "maybe" involved, you're just demonstrably a moron.

Actually the signpost thing felt pretty good to me as it addressed two points in one go - first it allowed for easier navigation without a "follow the yellow brick road"/giant glowing arrow approach that wouldn't have fit with the tone of the game, and it also was a natural navigation system that negated the lack of visual fidelity/resolution in games. After all, you couldn't read that sign in game without walking up to it and looking, meanwhile if you were driving past it in real-life you easily read it without a problem, so colour coding just made up for the inability of computers to display things like fine details well.

I'm not spell checking this as it is already fucking midnight.

Very easily: don't make the weapon completely useless after a few fights. Keep the rest of the mechanism as it is, just don't make guns rot the instant they're in the player's hands.

So you take issue when the gun brakes down?

In my experience, with the exception of a few particularly powerful/useful guns (the AR-15 and the silenced sniper rifle come to mind and possibly the SAW) most of the weapons take a while to brake down.

These balances are placed so that you will have to keep the weapon's condition in mind when you choose it. If you lower them, you will wish that they don't have one at all. They give you weapons crates at your safehouses for a reason.

Reliability is a great dimension when balancing guns: you know you can't use that weapon for a long time, but you also know that its very useful as long as you use it. That's why some of the weapons brake down after a few fights.

The more powerful weapons brake down easily, because otherwise you wouldn't bother with their weaker counterparts. Why bother with a AK47 when you could get better weapons?

If I were the developer, I would solve this "problem" by allowing the player to carry a field-maintaince toolset that would increase a weapon's state to a certain point and with limited amount of uses. However, implanting that would be difficult or expensive, especially if you want to make an animation for every gun in the game.

I'm not after simulationism, as should be obvious from reading my position on the matter. You seem to view it as an either/or prospect; it's not. That's the problem with game design, and with Far Cry 2 here for that matter - in these factors, my problem is that the gamist elements are too jarring, not that there are gamist elements (which is pretty much a given for any game).

So you don't think that its the gamist elements are sublte enough?

Or what are you saying excatly? Saying that its "jarring" seems rather vague to me.

But just placing them squarely in the path of any schmuck following the road would ensure that it'd be gone in short order.

If they were looking for one. You are, most people just want to get from one point to another.

I also don't recall many briefcases in the middle of the road or beside them, at least not without being either hidden or guarded.

Even then, there'd still be no problem if the diamonds weren't tied into the inane arms dealer system, which breaks the illusion in so many ways.

I repeat, the problem I had wasn't with the gamist elements, but with the fact that they in this case don't blend with the rest of the game.

The word you are looking for is "immersion". It breaks immersion to buy your guns from a computer rather than from a weapons dealer.

Yeah, I agree with you on that bit. It was really weird. I reckon it was just cheaper and simpler to do.

Problem is, that other ways to sell you arms would likely have been expensive (in either time, money or both) for the developers to do or immersion-breaking in some other way.

...and that, again, is the trouble. It's a gamist mechanism, yes. But it's a stupid mechanism to use exclusively, yet you're forced to use it because it's artificially promoted by these ridiculously transparent methods.

You can also get diamonds by taking assination jobs. I would presume that there were other missions planned, but you just end up going assinating people for diamonds.

That's another way to get diamonds.

Personally, I think the game would have been better if there were LESS diamonds cluttered around. The reason for 100 diamond cases per area is likely some marketing-pushed idiocity. "You can't have 54 diamonds in a world, you have to have a 100! Because 100 is a nice round number." or something along those lines.

What's next, bulletproof hyenas jumping you if you leave the designated road? I can almost hear you as you'd be tripping over yourself to explain how it, as a "gameplay mechanic", is vital because we can't have players walking around willy-nilly. It'd make as much sense.

No, its sudden malaria attacks caused by the heat, even if you go by night. These attacks will not happen if you are running around in the savannah.

Both your and the existing solution however, is better than invisible walls.

Game balancing or gameplay limiting techniques do not always make complete sense. They don't have to.

I dunno, maybe I'm just being cranky. I tried Far Cry 2 at an Internet café and was at first very impressed by how the intro pulled you into the atmosphere of African civil war. But when the game proper began, its strongly simulationist presentation was such that the gamist contrievances that existed stood out like traffic lights (or traffic signs. Colour coded. In English). These factors could have easily been solved in some other more immersive way, and indeed, in many other respects Far Cry 2 has implemented such solutions.

Let me try to boil this down: You were impressed by the initial immersiveness of the game, but you were dissapointed that it didn't keep that level of immersion.

What can I say to that? Fun vs immersion decisions? The priority to optimize effective quality over tangible quality?

Essentially, it boils down to production decisions, something you can't do much against. Production focused on solidity more than immersion, a fine decision in my opinion, because a solid if transparent game is better than a deep but flawed game. You have to sacrifice some features and ideas on the alter of "getting the fucker done on time".

Far Cry 2 is still a hellofalot more immersive than most other shooters out there. So, I think it just raised your standards just a bit too high.

Maybe that's something both I and Zixinus agreed on? Maybe, furthermore, you're just a moron who doesn't even grasp the argument itself - that precisely the fact that it is easier to find is the one I'm complaining about?

Actually, I agree somewhat. The idea behind the diamond collection, is pointless, stupid collectibles that Far Cry 2 just utilised rather well.

Stark wrote:Welcome to ... two months ago? lol. Did you even read the old thread? Everything has already been mentioned.

Hilariously you can't even read a manual; to clear a jam you just HOLD the reload button. Tapping it would only make it take longer.

Actually, according to the PC manual:

Reliability and Weapon Jamming
Every weapon in the game world suffers from varying degrees of wear. You can determine the
condition of an equipped weapon from its appearance. If you can see rust and corrosion, look
out! Poor weapons are more likely to jam. If you suffer a weapon jam, you can clear it by tapping
the reload button (the R key).

What, no mention of fucking snipers that can shoot you when they aren't even supposed to be able to see you through brush?

And then the goddamn C.Gustav enemies who can do the same with a fucking missile?

how about how the guns are all mirrored from the real ones, and eject shells to the left? WHY?

Magical syrettes that can heal you from mortal wounds.

Personally I haven't had a problem with weapon reliability, except that the dart rifle gets rusty and cranky after only about 10 shots. On the original Far Cry thread, I did some destructive testing, and for the most part, weapons will last long enough. Most of the weapons you can pick up off the ground are about 2 magazines away from self-destruction however.

I'm missing the lack of a combat reload. Full reloads for the assault rifles take forever. I get around this by not carrying an assault rifle. (MGL, Minimi and flaregun is my standard loadout, and it rocks.)

I'm bowing out of the argument: in some cases I agree, in others it's a difference of degree rather than kind. Mostly, I've been so completely wasted these last couple of days I couldn't argue myself out of a wet paper bag. Suffice to say FC2 was, on the whole, a pretty good game, and that I feel balance issues should never break immersion, as you said.

On the note of Far cry 2, a question about weapon smuggling:

I get how you can re-use an old weapon from war to war, but how about ammunition? How does ammunition get into illegal markets, particularly into countries that no one should sell war-time materials. The amount and variety of ammunition is a problem alone.

It's just something that I can't wrap my head around.

and that I feel balance issues should never break immersion, as you said.

Huh? Where?

Zixinus wrote:On the note of Far cry 2, a question about weapon smuggling:

I get how you can re-use an old weapon from war to war, but how about ammunition? How does ammunition get into illegal markets, particularly into countries that no one should sell war-time materials. The amount and variety of ammunition is a problem alone.

It's just something that I can't wrap my head around.

Because there's any number of ways to get it in there. There may be old army depots to loot, the neighbouring countries may supply them covertly or overtly, arms companies can make a big profit off ammo sales and so will often sell direct (or through traffickers), then there's the traffickers themselves selling officially or unofficially obtained product and to top it all off there are the various PMCs who are there on security contracts for mines, the gov't, whoever - and who bring along a shitload of ammo of their own.

I tried getting into the game. Spent a week trying. The game just feels like Grand Theft Auto Africa. Constant 4 star wanted level. Everyone hunts you and they can always chase you down. A friend was telling me about the Car of Death. A little Toyota goes flying off a cliff while trying to run my friend down. He was walking under the cliff and somehow the AI saw him and just drove off to try and kill him. He watched the thing crash into a rock and explode.

Stealth does next to nothing. They can see you anywhere and everywhere. You disengage and try running around one of 5 different rocks and they know exactly where you are at all times, no way to hide. They see through everything. Checkpoints respawn in insanely short periods of time. I love the "this mission is so secret our own troops don't even know about it so please kill any of them that get in your way" concept for the first 1/3 of the game.

Sorry, I just could not get into that game.

You just suck. I've stealthed whole missions, and why the hell are you running away anyway? It's trivial to kill the guys that are driving around in cars; even lategame the only challenge is the GL cars. The respawing fucking checkpoints are WAY more annoying.

I love how since every single briefing in the WHOLE GAME includes a phrase like 'and nobody will know you're working for us so ANC will be gunning for you too, remember that china' AND it's hardly unusual for a game to have no allies there's no reason for it to surprise or annoy anyone. The game has serious problems - fuck knows I can't get back into it, and I'm nearly finished - but making up stupid 'it's not what I expected rar sucks' crap is just nonsense. Lets talk about how the weapon system is borked, the massive gun inflation and the linear nature of the game, and not WHY DO I COLLECT RINGS. So much criticism of the game is of this nature; the buddy system is a simple convenience which on console is very welcome, but oh no they gave you npcs AND DON'T LET YOU ORDER THEM AROUND! Holy shit game sucks! Instead of it being a mechanic to make the (quite difficult at times) game more forgiving, it's a 'total failure' because it doesn't meet some nerd expectations.

I have tried stealthing. The moment I fire a silenced weapon they hear it. Fire into the air, they hear it. Kill someone silently, the fucking hear it. It is impossible to stealth a mission. Why am I running away from the bad guys? I am trying to re-enage from an advantageous position. Instead they fucking see me wherever I go.

Yeah, stealthing for me is totally broken, the moment is make any aggressive action, they all know exactly where I am. And all come gunning for me. I can lose them after this point fairly easily, but if I lure a guy off into the jungle and kill him silently with a machete, all of his buds should not be instantly alerted via hive-mind and come after me/start firing RPGs and sniper rifles at my precise X,Y and Z coordinates.

weemadando wrote:Yeah, stealthing for me is totally broken, the moment is make any aggressive action, they all know exactly where I am. And all come gunning for me. I can lose them after this point fairly easily, but if I lure a guy off into the jungle and kill him silently with a machete, all of his buds should not be instantly alerted via hive-mind and come after me/start firing RPGs and sniper rifles at my precise X,Y and Z coordinates.

Don't you know, they have GPS enabled heart monitors on themselves. The moment they die or their heart rate spikes (IE they see you) it alerts everyone near by to your location.

that's odd, cause I can take a dozen or more silenced shots before they know what the fuck is going on.

Yeah, I can snipe a guy in a tower and fire a flare over a building and have them all go round the back to investigate the fire and machete them in the back.

Maybe they broke it for PC? LOL.