Wallrunning out of Death's reach.

[weemadando]

A bit of a rant, but I feel it needed to be said.

I want to compare and contrast two games with a similar design but different motivations. These are Mirror's Edge from Dice by way of EA and Prince of Persia from Ubisoft. Both of these games have a focus on running, jumping, sliding and acrobatically puzzling your way through an environment with a very distinctive art style. Both have received their fair share of positive and negative reactions. And to be honest, I'm not sure which I've enjoyed more than the other.

A disclaimer first - I'm playing both on PC, using the 360 gamepad for Prince of Persia and mouse and keyboard for Mirror's Edge. I had tried the Mirror's Edge demo on the 360 and just felt a bit let down by the controls. The game seems to require amazingly tight control - especially when jumping for pipes, ladders and the like and I just could not get it happening on the 360 controller so I decided to wait for PC so I could use the mouse and keyboard.

I've heard on a lot of podcasts and read on a lot of sites that Prince of Persia has very forgiving controls - I must be some kind of freakishly untalented player then, because I just am yet to get the hang of them - perhaps I'm yet to learn the rhythm of the game as I am very early on still.

Again, contrary to the touted opinions, the control's of Mirror's Edge have been wonderful - very tight and intuitive and it is probably my many years of playing FPS games with arbitrary platforming sequences on PC which has made me much, much better at such a thing than those gamers who have never had such an experience. There have been the occasional irritation (such as trying to time an up-wall-run to sideways leap to grab), but for the majority of the game the movement and controls mesh perfectly.

The main point I wanted to reach on this however is the accusation that Prince of Persia is too easy. Which I first want to point out is a stupid opinion to hold. These people say that the removal of death means that there is no challenge. Death hasn't been a challenge in games since quick-saving was introduced and before that - when limited lives went out the window. In fact, thus far in both Mirror's Edge and Prince of Persia I'm yet to be hindered by death. In both, when you fuck up, you die. Prince of Persia then quickloads you back to the last checkpoint with a graphic of Elika grabbing your hand. Mirror's Edge quickloads you back to the last checkpoint courtesy of a loadscreen.

There is no fundamental difference here aside from the fact that some people must think that having a load screen means that there is in fact a penalty for death. Actually - I've only seen the Elika animation a few times and already the music and animation is getting old. I think that's a going to be a bigger punishment in the long run than a white loadscreen.

Using the logic implied in the "not being able to die makes it easy" argument I can make any game as easy or as hard as I want now because the death mechanic has been negated by saving. I could go through a game saving only every 2 hours and thus have a big punishment for dying, in the form of being forced to replay a significant chunk of the game again. Does that make a game better? No. Does that make a game fun? No. Does that actually make the game longer? No. This is one of the reasons why I hate Ninja Gaiden.

People need to understand that the inherent nature of the death mechanics in gaming has been undercut by saving. If I wanted to I could play through the whole of HL2 and both episodes and never "die", because I can quicksave and quickload at will. It's a puerile argument to say that just because you can't die means a game is simple. If you want to stick with that argument then Planescape Torment would like to say: "Hello and fuck you buddy."

And even if it is "easy", does that make it bad? No. No it doesn't. Not every game needs to be ruthlessly hard and with a decade between checkpoints - no matter how emotionally repressed, dateless and with hours and hours to waste you might be - you should be able to recognise this as simply bad game design. Sure artificial inflation of gameplay length is probably my greatest pet peeve, but even looking at this objectively you are kidding yourself if you think that such inflation actually makes a game better.

Personally I'd like to see more games pick up on the negation of the traditional death mechanic that Prince of Persia has introduced. Sure, the setting of Prince of Persia makes it a perfect contender for the implementation of such a device, but there's no reason it couldn't be adapted to other settings or genres with a bit of work. Just look at what Far Cry 2 with it's death mechanic - it removed the traditional punishment for death and introduced a "rescue" mechanic which I've already found useful for expanding my contacts and knowledge.

If within the next few years we can see the elimination of my need to compulsively quicksave and quickload (thanks Halflife) and replace the traditional punishment of "You Died. Game Over. . . . Press space to load your last save." (how FUCK is that "Game Over" then? Stupid fucking 1980s gameplay hangover!) then myself and my HDD will be happier for it as I won't have to worry about accumulating literally thousands of quicksave files over the course of games.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Agree 100%.

We talked about this in one of my classes last term, and almost everyone in there (being the uncultured, pedestrian Halo 3 players they are) raged on Prince of Persia exactly because of that game mechanic... while I was just about the only one supporting the new death system while at the same time being critical of the tedious glowy-orb collection stuff.

But then, it shouldn't be all that surprising - a lot of the mainstream console-oriented gaming media is populated by those same idiots for whom the height of art and literature is Halo 3, pitifully stuck in the 1990s world of gaming.

[Stark]

Ironically I've never seen anyone else actually work out what the buddy system was for in Far Cry 2; console gamers can't quicksave whore like a PC gamer, so it's an on-site respawn to allow you to play on after disaster without having to reload or take a penalty. Design systems to remove downtime without breaking the game?!

But remember, things like carrying healthpacks or healthpacks everywhere or regen health dumbs games down. Just so you know.

I haven't actually heard any complaints about Prince's death-avoidance; as you say, it doesn't help you get through a puzzle, it just stops you throwing the controller across the room.

[weemadando]

I haven't actually heard any complaints about Prince's death-avoidance;

Are you seriously saying you haven't encountered any of the moronic: "LOL! Itz soo ezy bcuz u kant dai1" shit that has been dogging this game?

Ironically I've never seen anyone else actually work out what the buddy system was for in Far Cry 2; console gamers can't quicksave whore like a PC gamer, so it's an on-site respawn to allow you to play on after disaster without having to reload or take a penalty. Design systems to remove downtime without breaking the game?!

That's not to say that I don't quicksave something FIERCE in Far Cry 2 (a combination of having random crashes and sometimes not wanting to bother with trudging for 5 minutes on foot after losing a vehicle) and have about 150 quicksaves cluttering me up, but once I figured out that the rescue system does more than just rescue you and in fact expands your relationship with that contact I haven't quickloaded after dying since.

[Stark]

No, but I don't read blogs/youtube comments/etc. I haven't looked at any reviews for that game either, but Sands and the new Prince game seem pretty damn popular to me.

[weemadando]

No, but I don't read blogs/youtube comments/etc. I haven't looked at any reviews for that game either, but Sands and the new Prince game seem pretty damn popular to me.

I've mainly been encountering it on podcasts - I just find it funny that people can have a problem with the same mechanic that every other game uses being used in this game, but putting it in a different wrapping.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I didnt even know FC2 HAD quicksave. Frankly if it does and you use it you're a cunt.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Mirror's Edge controls just fine with the 360 gamepad. But the game has a bit of a learning curve.

I submit that you were not, in fact, very good at the demo, and instead of getting better at it you decided to blame the console controls.

[Ford Prefect]

I must admit that I was annoyed by the Elika animation, simply because I was trying to teach myself the controls in a late part of the game on a friend's computer. I died something like thirty times before I managed to work out what button did what and where.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Grumble schmumble. (Thought it was about me ).

How is the new PoP game compared to the old ones? I quite liked the Warrior Within, although I couldn't stand the control scheme in the "Two Thrones".

[weemadando]

Mirror's Edge controls just fine with the 360 gamepad. But the game has a bit of a learning curve.

I submit that you were not, in fact, very good at the demo, and instead of getting better at it you decided to blame the console controls.

Fuck no. I played the demo about 5 or 6 times through and the precision jumps (such as off a ramp onto a ladder or pipe) had such a narrow margin of error that I was having to do them 10+ times each as I kept missing the intended location by a very small amount (as it smacking my face into the wall 3cm to the left or right of the pipe/ladderand fucking falling to my death, despite my hands still being EASILY in range and even touching the pipe/ladder. I just don't do precision on a gamepad that well in this case. Not sure why, I just couldn't get it nailed down. But on mouse and keyboard I had no problems right from the start.

[Peptuck]

The main point I wanted to reach on this however is the accusation that Prince of Persia is too easy. Which I first want to point out is a stupid opinion to hold. These people say that the removal of death means that there is no challenge. Death hasn't been a challenge in games since quick-saving was introduced and before that - when limited lives went out the window. In fact, thus far in both Mirror's Edge and Prince of Persia I'm yet to be hindered by death. In both, when you fuck up, you die. Prince of Persia then quickloads you back to the last checkpoint with a graphic of Elika grabbing your hand. Mirror's Edge quickloads you back to the last checkpoint courtesy of a loadscreen.

There is no fundamental difference here aside from the fact that some people must think that having a load screen means that there is in fact a penalty for death. Actually - I've only seen the Elika animation a few times and already the music and animation is getting old. I think that's a going to be a bigger punishment in the long run than a white loadscreen.

Quoted for truth.

The only times this makes things any easier is when you abuse it to get a few Seeds of Light in hard-to-reach areas. Other than that, its essentially a checkpoint system that sets each checkpoint at the last safe platform you were standing on. The closest you get in PoP to a long time between checkpoints is a few of the Palace platforming segments, where you have to do a chain of about thirty jumps and swings between each safe platform.

I don't know about these other masochistic gamers, but I don't want to spend five minutes getting back to the spot where I died last to give it another go; the less time I spend doing unnecessary things the happier I am.

[Stark]

Grumble schmumble. (Thought it was about me ).

How is the new PoP game compared to the old ones? I quite liked the Warrior Within, although I couldn't stand the control scheme in the "Two Thrones".

Liking Warrior Within might be bad; I understand everyone hated it (lol Prince Aragorn lol) and they've moved away from that style. I'm not sure if this is just art style or playstyle (although this one seems much more like Sands of Time with no sand).

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, it's much more like Sands of Time only with significantly different combat. Where in SoT you might end up fighting six or seven enemies at once, I'm fairly sure all the battles in the new Prince of Persia are two on one. I thinkt he game is pretty solid all round, but I have terrible taste.

[Aaron]

I didnt even know FC2 HAD quicksave. Frankly if it does and you use it you're a cunt.

It is only on the PC version, Xbox and PS3 players have to use the safe houses.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I didnt even know FC2 HAD quicksave. Frankly if it does and you use it you're a cunt.

It is only on the PC version, Xbox and PS3 players have to use the safe houses.

I only played the PC version. I went to the safe houses every time I wanted to save, pretyt sure Stark did the same.

[Aaron]

I only played the PC version. I went to the safe houses every time I wanted to save, pretyt sure Stark did the same.

Unfortunately I only have the PS3 version, I was going off the compliants on the Ubisoft forums about the lack of quick save for consoles. I'm more than willing to take your word for it though.

[Stark]

Oh I played the pc version too; I didn't know there was a quicksave until It was mentioned in the FC2 thread here, by which time I was about halfway.

[weemadando]

I didn't use quicksave initially, but after I had a few shitty crashes I decided to start quick-saving.

[Pulp Hero]

What is really weird, is that even something like 'Halo' has forgiving checkpoints everywhere. And really I've seen more complaints about various games to the effect of "not enough checkpoints/checkpoints too far apart" to take this PoP bitching seriously.

One of the things I loved about Fallout 3 was an automatic quicksave everytime you entered or left a building.

[Molyneux]

The only really major flaws I've seen with Mirror's Edge are the combat and the story...mostly the combat.
As far as Prince of Persia goes? Honestly? I love the thing. I don't understand what the naysayers have been smoking. It's not quite as good as Sands of Time was, but nobody's perfect. And though the Dahaka was scarier than the new monsters, it's better than just about everything else that showed up in Warrior Within.

Then again, I find the Dahaka creepier than Pyramid Head, so...yeah.

[JointStrikeFighter]

A much bigger flaw in Mirrors Edge was all the times where your tooling around inside buildings and airducts instead of jumping from rooftop to rooftop.

[Stark]

Then again, I find the Dahaka creepier than Pyramid Head, so...yeah.

Pyramid Head is creepy? I guess, if you find fanservice creepy that might be the case.

[Molyneux]

Then again, I find the Dahaka creepier than Pyramid Head, so...yeah.

Pyramid Head is creepy? I guess, if you find fanservice creepy that might be the case.

Hey, I saw the SH movie before I played Silent Hill 2. Yes, he's scary as fuck if you haven't been overexposed to him.
Anyway, the Dahaka is the single scariest video-game monster I've ever had to fight.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Then again, I find the Dahaka creepier than Pyramid Head, so...yeah.

Pyramid Head is creepy? I guess, if you find fanservice creepy that might be the case.

Hey, I saw the SH movie before I played Silent Hill 2. Yes, he's scary as fuck if you haven't been overexposed to him.
Anyway, the Dahaka is the single scariest video-game monster I've ever had to fight.

Play Penumbra. I GUARANTEE the monsters in that will be so scary that no other game is scary again.