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You know what would be really awesome?

If you could play through Left 4 Dead. As a pyro from TF2.

Mmrrph! Grroomph thrrr rrrichs! *fwoosh*

L4D's a source mod anyway, not like there's a whole lot of difference

What makes L4D a mod besides the fact that it uses the Source engine?

lol what out zod you've pissed off the valve patrol :V

No. I'm actually curious too. L4D includes a lot of mechanics in it that HL2 and such don't, IIRC, and the graphics are a lot better (yes I realize this is just a covering over the physics and mechanics). Are they really that similar to each other?

Stark wrote:lol what out zod you've pissed off the valve patrol :V

WHOOOP WHOOOOOOOP

I OBJECT TO THESE CRITICISMS ON THE GROUNDS OF

ERM

i guess this means that gears is just an unreal tournament 3 mod too

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best Unreal 2 mod.

Ford Prefect wrote:i guess this means that gears is just an unreal tournament 3 mod too

I guess air buccaneers is a 'proper' 2k4 game it has new mechanics LOL


Do I have to play hl2 again
L4d can't really look better
L4d looks AWFUL

this is it? where's the righteous indignation? come on, you people are disappointing me here

ok zod i'll fire em up

valve drones

propose critera for 'mod' and 'game'

'is in a box' and 'valve sells it at full price' are accetpable criteria for 'game'... lol
i'd just like to know so i can establish how many team-based gametype mutators also qualify as 'game'
is the critera 'is team-based gametype and valve spent a pile of money making character models'
is the critera 'was a mod once but valve bought it and thus is now a game'
is the critera 'we already decided tf2 is a standalone game so l4d is too by default'

I think you're the one who's going to have to define what you consider to be the difference between a "mod" and a "game", Stark, since apparently you consider every 'game' made using the Source engine to be nothing more than a 'mod'.

Omg prove it's NOT a 'proper' game

Here dp removes any chance of actual discussion LOL I guess we should default to 'whatever valve says' without explaining why LOL

i want to know more about this alleged 'valve squad', this sounds like a dangerous reactionary force that needs to be dealt with


my toilets must remain clear and free

Stark wrote:Omg prove it's NOT a 'proper' game

Here dp removes any chance of actual discussion LOL I guess we should default to 'whatever valve says' without explaining why LOL

even more hilarious: "Building a "mod" (a game which relies on another game's core technology) " according to Valve

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I think you're the one who's going to have to define what you consider to be the difference between a "mod" and a "game", Stark, since apparently you consider every 'game' made using the Source engine to be nothing more than a 'mod'.

it's probably safe to say that if it started as a mod created by fans

but then was picked up by valve and sold basically unchanged at full price

it is a glorified mod

Uraniun235 wrote:i want to know more about this alleged 'valve squad', this sounds like a dangerous reactionary force that needs to be dealt with


my toilets must remain clear and free

oh man you must be new to the internet

it's like this mang... you got to make people who disagree with you appear silly or foolish in order to woo the swing vote y'know

hey zod since people who disagree with us can't string a fucking position together, i might throw out some more talking points

we got basic-o mods, like say Checkmate for UT2k4, that are just rules using existing assets like models or maps or whatever... i doubt anyone would call this a 'proper game' just because valve decided to charge a hundred bucks for it

then we got slightly more involved 'total conversions' like red orchestra or cs that play similarly but involve all-new assets like maps, guns, etc... these may be sold in shops in a box. are these 'proper games'? at what point did they stop being mods (since RO and CS were both clearly mods at one point, RO even winning a mod compeition)?

we also got TC's that play totally differently (like Air Buccaneers) or are a differnt type of game now, like the platform/top down/car racing games people made in UE2.0 that are still mods of UT2k4...

then we got HELLA NASTY stuff where people have paid licencing fees... I believe Endwar uses UE3.0, is it a mod? Why/why not?

since mods are given a run around licencing since they're not sold, is simply 'being sold' a determinant of being 'not a mod'? what if you're sold but never bought the licence, or are being sold BY the licence-holder (like all the valve mods)??

oh shit we're having a discussion better stop

hey los i see your reply now - but would you say that something like RO, which 'won' a 'mod' competion and gained a free licence and is then sold, is a 'game'? is this a value call based on how early in the lifecycle you encountered it?

i dunno what ro is tbh

but i suppose i'd draw a distinction at the original intent of the project

it's great for the mod team if valve snatches them up and the rights to the mod but it sort of screws the people already playing it, doesn't it?

red orchestra is a ut2k4 mod that won the 'make something unreal' competition a while back and is now sold in boxes and in digital distribution thingos like steam. by winning i believe epic waived the licnencing fees.

Stark wrote:then we got slightly more involved 'total conversions' like red orchestra or cs that play similarly but involve all-new assets like maps, guns, etc... these may be sold in shops in a box. are these 'proper games'? at what point did they stop being mods (since RO and CS were both clearly mods at one point, RO even winning a mod compeition)?

I would say they stopped being mods when they no longer incorporate the original game's content, and stopped being 'total conversions' when they no longer required that the user already own another game in order to play it.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Stark wrote:then we got slightly more involved 'total conversions' like red orchestra or cs that play similarly but involve all-new assets like maps, guns, etc... these may be sold in shops in a box. are these 'proper games'? at what point did they stop being mods (since RO and CS were both clearly mods at one point, RO even winning a mod compeition)?

I would say they stopped being mods when they no longer incorporate the original game's content, and stopped being 'total conversions' when they no longer required that the user already own another game in order to play it.

by content do you mean things like AI routines, level objects, and physics? or something silly like bitmaps and splash effects?

Uraniun235 wrote:I would say they stopped being mods when they no longer incorporate the original game's content, and stopped being 'total conversions' when they no longer required that the user already own another game in order to play it.

That's just a packaging thing in the case of Valve, however - they own the engine and the distribution, so of course they repackage the mods to not need HL2 (moreso since they generally already bought the guys making it). You could buy CS in stores too, and I believe you didn't need HL1 for that to work. Is Beyond the Red Line not a mod because you don't need FS2 to play it (since this example is entirely open-source and has no licencing issues aside from LOL RON MOORE)?

General Zod wrote: by content do you mean things like AI routines, level objects, and physics? or something silly like bitmaps and splash effects?

Content would tend to be everything you would have to supply yourself if you were to license an extant game engine. So for example if you were to download and use Id Tech 3, content would be material which didn't come with the engine.


Commercial engine re-use/licensing has been around forever - even the old Wolfenstein 3D engine was licensed a few times.

edit: hey Stark you replied while I was writing

Stark wrote:That's just a packaging thing in the case of Valve, however - they own the engine and the distribution, so of course they repackage the mods to not need HL2 (moreso since they generally already bought the guys making it). You could buy CS in stores too, and I believe you didn't need HL1 for that to work. Is Beyond the Red Line not a mod because you don't need FS2 to play it (since this example is entirely open-source and has no licencing issues aside from LOL RON MOORE)?

Is Left4Dead actually using Half-Life 2 content? I don't know, since I haven't read up on it. I figured it was just using the engine - I haven't noticed anything that came from Half-Life 2.

My point is that the only thing stopping any mod being distributed without the base game is licencing, and this is obviously not an issue for Valve since it's their engine and their mod/content/etc. Are you saying the determinant of 'game' is 'paying for a licence' or 'being made by the same guys that made the engine'? In this way Red Orchestra would be a 'proper game' since it's sold independently, but it obviously started life as a mod and hasn't really undergone any giant shedding of original content or other changes bar licencing since then (since I don't think they ever used UT2k4 content at all).