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Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 05:32pm
by Bluewolf
OK this is more about people and just ideas then gameplay or computers but I think it fits in here. Basically me and two other people have been having the idea of making a game. The general idea for the games subject is werewolves yet we don't know what we want the game to be like or we want it to be about. The other issue is that we really don;t have any proper coding/programming skills except one person.

Now one of us wants to basically ask a forum we all go to for ideas but I am thinking. Should we already have the basic concept of what we want from this game before we toss it out to the public? I am not sure if we should develop what we want the game before we basically toss it out for ideas and suggestions. What should we do?

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 09:18pm
by Ford Prefect
It's certainly beneficial to have more of an idea than 'videogame with werewolves', which basically meaningless. I have, on a couple of occassions, come up with game concepts and they tend to be totally unimplementable fairly well defined in terms of central premise, genre and roughly what the gameplay should look like. Talking about a game with anything less is pretty meaningless.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 09:41pm
by chitoryu12
Definitely agree with Ford. Make sure your idea is well fleshed-out before you present it to anyone. Premise, any good/unique ideas you plan to implement, gameplay, storyline, etc. When you have a complete outline of what the game will be like, feel free to toss it at someone.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 09:43pm
by Stark
Mechanics are more important than vague story ideas; if you can explain how the game will be played and how elements will interact, that's far more useful when talking to others or selling the idea than 'omg werewolves'.

Cooking up mechanics isn't even hard; but it shows that you've considered the practical implementation of your ideas.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 09:49pm
by Dave
Asking the forum for game design and mechanics is essentially the same thing as game creation-by-committee, which almost always ends up being a wreck, usually of Exxon Valdez proportions. Asking forums for technical help is fine; asking for core features or design is probably a recipe for disaster.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-06 11:02pm
by Ford Prefect
Stark wrote:Cooking up mechanics isn't even hard; but it shows that you've considered the practical implementation of your ideas.
Though try to come up with gameplay ideas that seem feasible. For example, I once had an idea about a conversation system which based character responses upon your actions, and then remember them in future. Like you were running around and being a general moron then you would get responses that would reflect this, while if you actually were interested, sticking close to the dude speaking or whatever, then your character would actually respond as though you're interested.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 05:42am
by Covenant
Dave wrote:Asking the forum for game design and mechanics is essentially the same thing as game creation-by-committee, which almost always ends up being a wreck, usually of Exxon Valdez proportions. Asking forums for technical help is fine; asking for core features or design is probably a recipe for disaster.
Lies. Just listen to all my advice and then give me a piece of the action.

You need a design document of some sort, and use this as a reference for further additions (because there will be) and to help you identify those things you find important. It will also help you see just how big of a job you're making for yourself, and realize like all good companies that giving a more focused product leads to a better product. There's a reason they didn't get overly complicated with Diablo's story.

In this document you must describe in some form of direction for all your departments. Basically, design/art/code. Since you are not a big multi-million dollar corporation, this may be a few people wearing multiple hats. But you can't design a game the way you make stone soup. Unless you know what you want it to play like, look like, and sell like, you won't ever get any form of a successful project, and you should just give up now and save everyone the aggrivation. Things will change, you'll get new ideas, and drop old ones, but so long as you have identified a core set of principles, these changes won't break the fucking project.

Three big topcs:

1) Who am I selling this to? What demographic am I appealing to? How will I sell it to them?

If your game about werewolves is marketed to angsty emo gothic fiction readers and furries, your game will absolutely fail, as it is much harder to sell an emotion than an experience. Don't ask what they'll like about the setting, ask what they'll like about the game. There's lots of Star Wars games, but during development they identify demographics they want to sell to, and the setting becomes just a contrivance. Is your Werewolf game a brawler? Side-scroller? Role playing game? How will these people find and buy the game aside from word of mouth? Are there websites, publications, or other marketing venues you can use to target your product, or other games you can compare it to in order to attract cross-over purchases?

2) What's it look like? How does the art save you money? How does the art generate profit?

Do you want it to look 3D? Go die. 3D art is hard and time consuming, but more importantly, programming a 3D game engine that doesn't blow ass can be hard to do, unless you want to wrangle with one that's in existance--in which case you better do things the way that engine likes. How about 2D? Are you using pixels in an isometric world? Sprites in a 3D world? And so on. This decision should be first and foremost about making sure your coders can handle the requirements. If your coders suck, stick with flash sidescrollers and sell the thing online somehow. If your coders are good enough to handle 2D art and such, you may be able to sell it like a real product. Art should never be more demanding than the coders can allow. And art should make you money. If you're selling a beat-em-up and your art is hand-drawn by someone who isn't an excellent artist, then you're a moron, so don't do that. Make sure your art fits the people you're trying to sell to, instead of trying to be true to some fictional "true nature" of your game. Games are products, like hamburgers and underwear. They exist to serve a need, not glorify your vision.

3) What about the game is fun? How does the game keep the focus on the fun? How do you control the game?

Mechanics and design are quite important, second only to code. If your game is about being a badass werewolf who beats up fantasy kingdoms, then skip the bullshit parts that don't involve beating on people. Don't force players to do stuff that isn't fun just because you think it's part of the genre or because you like it as an idea. You're selling an experience. If that experience is beating up monsters, make sure you're doing that 90 percent of the time. I can't sum up game balance, but let's hope you understand the merits of bugtesting, and for goodness' sake make the controls sensible. Most games really only need a D-Pad and 2 buttons. If you find yourself needing more than 3 buttons, re-think your control scheme and ask what all of that is used for. And also ask why you ever need a menu. Picking up coins doesn't need a button--you always want to do it, as an example. Unless it HAS to require a button or a menu or some interface nonsense, don't have it.


The rest of the design comes down to not making an awful game. That's like saying "the rest of writing a book comes down to making a good story." You either do it or you don't, but in truth, that stuff isn't really all that important. If the game plays well, is coded well, isn't overly ambitious and actually can be found and purchased, it'll make money. If you can make it acutally fun to play for more than a little bit, it might actually make a profit. Your idea shouldn't be for a werewolf game, but for a good game, and then onec the basic mechanics are decided on, make it a werewolf game. But if the game doesn't make sense or isn't "fun" without the setting, then it's a bad game.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 05:42am
by Bluewolf
Well the thing is that this idea has been brought up before but it’s always been asked in an odd way. It’s always been “let’s make a werewolf game, who wants to help” without any real idea where they want to go beyond that concept anyway (for reference it’s a werewolf fansite, thus why that idea). To me this is an awfully bad idea. I think that a silly way to do it. As its been said you should have a basic idea of what the game is going to be (side scroller fighter, Rpg etc) and THEN you potentially ask a forum and fish for ideas and help.

The thing is that some people think I am being too secretive with that idea and would rather do it as a community thing by the sounds of it. Frankly though there are some good people on that forum, it has a lot of drama. Personally I am not sure what to say.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 05:52am
by Starglider
Make a graphical adventure game (2D Monkey Island style). It requires almost zero programming (minimal scripting, if you use a game creator program), just art and writing. You can start with just two or three locations and characters, and progressively add more if interest is maintained.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 06:03am
by Eleas
Starglider wrote:Make a graphical adventure game (2D Monkey Island style). It requires almost zero programming (minimal scripting, if you use a game creator program), just art and writing. You can start with just two or three locations and characters, and progressively add more if interest is maintained.
If you take this path, I'd advise you to use AGS, and make a small proof-of-concept in it involving, say, one room and a few puzzles that you must negotiate in order to escape it. That should provide you the focus you need to make something that doesn't founder. If not, then making a longer game isn't for you.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 06:14am
by Ford Prefect
Bluewolf wrote:Personally I am not sure what to say.
Just say what you said here: that you should have a better idea of what you want before you start looking for ideas. Covenant's 'plan' is actually pretty good (I am totally going to use it to make a joke post in testing about a terrible idea) and you should follow it. Answering the question about demographic is important. Though perhaps whati s most important is answering the question 'what do we hope to achieve with this game?'

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 07:24am
by Bluewolf
Cov, though this is meant to be done as more of a fun freeware project, I must say that, that is really a good post and pretty much still applies. Thanks for bringing it up. :)

I will basically paraphrase what you guys have said including Cov's post and see where I can go from, from there.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-07 03:10pm
by Solauren
Bluewolf wrote:OK this is more about people and just ideas then gameplay or computers but I think it fits in here. Basically me and two other people have been having the idea of making a game. The general idea for the games subject is werewolves yet we don't know what we want the game to be like or we want it to be about. The other issue is that we really don;t have any proper coding/programming skills except one person.

Now one of us wants to basically ask a forum we all go to for ideas but I am thinking. Should we already have the basic concept of what we want from this game before we toss it out to the public? I am not sure if we should develop what we want the game before we basically toss it out for ideas and suggestions. What should we do?
Do any of you have any Game Mastering experience with RPGs? Specifcally from the 'make the adventure from stratch?'

If so, my suggestion

Plot out the game's basic plot line from start to finish, into 'Chapters'.
Detail out the Chapters into 'Sub Chapters'
Repeat for Paragraphs

You now have the basic skeleton for a game to work with.

So, bat around ideas and such. Who knows, you might come up with something usable.

And if not, you can always post it on the net as fiction.

Re: Something I want to ask for a potential gaming project

Posted: 2009-05-09 05:29am
by Sarevok
Don't go for 3D.

Seriously the amount of graphics related code will be like a hundred times longer than whatever deals with game mechanics. And it will be an utter soul destroying experience that is guaranteed to make 99 % of people who had an "game idea" stay away from game development forever.

Instead make it a text based adventure. As you gain better coders on the team you could go for 2D eventually. But never forget that even many 3D shooters are very simplistic crap with less "depth" then tetris when you take away the monstrous effort poured into graphics. So focus on the game mechanics first instead of graphics which even though looks nice is very difficult for small teams to achieve compared to good gameplay.