StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Apparently this has been released, although amazon still says it's only available for pre-order.

Anyway. Who's going to get this? Does anyone have a copy already?
I've already pre-ordered one, even if my expectation for it are somewhat low after Dark Heresy.


-Gunhead

I picked up a copy and Gencon, and it's pretty good, but if you didn't like Dark Heresy, it might not be for you.

Things are a bit different in Rogue Trader, due to the change in scale. Counting individual rounds in your ship's supply is abolished, you can make purchases for things in the thousands, and money itself is abstracted into its own attribute.

And you can fly around in ships up to Imperial Cruisers.

What is it you didn't like about Dark Heresy?

Well, the fluffy bits are good in DH but....

Straight percentage system. I don't like these as doing things is either too damned hard or too easy. The middleground is almost none existant
Talent / skill system is not to my taste. I prefer skill based systems with more clear definition between advantages and skills.
And not as a major issue but still. "In the darkness of the 41th millenia, there is only illiteracy". Yeah, I know it's not a big issue as such. But this is just stupid "medieval grimdark".

Combat system. There are many who beat the drum how great it is, well I don't care for it. It's not really cinematic, but not aimed at realism either. The damage system produces odd results and it has that wonderful dissappearing armor rule. Which is just bad game design.

I'm not saying it's D20 bad. It just has, to me, so many fundamental problems I don't think I'm going to even try at making modifications to it. It's just easier to use a different system. The books are nice for fluff and other stuff and since I got a huge euro to dollar discount on them it made them worth my while.
Which is I hope is the case with Rogue Trader too.

I know they've haven't changed the basic system to a great degree, but I'm mostly after more neat stuff to rip and exploit to my own twisted ends.

-Gunhead

Not really related to the OP, but what other systems do you like gunhead?
Non-d20 related games get so little coverage.

Artemas wrote:Not really related to the OP, but what other systems do you like gunhead?
Non-d20 related games get so little coverage.

Heavy Gear, GURPS, Ars Magica for magic thingies, Praedor (which is in finnish, but is a totally kick ass system and setting for grimdark fantasy), Paranoia (sure as shit not for the system though ) and still have a soft spot for Cyberpunk for being the first system we had after giving up D&D. Also had some good times with D6 Star Wars but haven't used it in ages.

I usually modify or do my own whenever I'm the GM. Which is often.


-Gunhead

Are the systems close enought to make conversion from one to the other quite easy? I'm in the middle of a dark heresy campaign at the moment and I'm intending to pick up rogue traider as soon as I have the money. The party is actually on a ship at the moment and are likely to be there for a while (part of the geller field failed while in the warp and something got on board ).

I'll be picking it up after x-mas, provided I can get it off Chapters. DH has turned out to be pretty popular on DITL and I think there will be interest enough for a Rogue Trader game. If not, there is bound to be enough fluff to give me ideas for DH.

Bedlam wrote:Are the systems close enought to make conversion from one to the other quite easy? I'm in the middle of a dark heresy campaign at the moment and I'm intending to pick up rogue traider as soon as I have the money. The party is actually on a ship at the moment and are likely to be there for a while (part of the geller field failed while in the warp and something got on board ).

I think they are set in adjacent sectors, though I don't know how far apart that makes them.

Gunhead wrote: Straight percentage system. I don't like these as doing things is either too damned hard or too easy. The middleground is almost none existant

I guess you never read the sections about situational modifiers?

DPDarkPrimus wrote:

Gunhead wrote: Straight percentage system. I don't like these as doing things is either too damned hard or too easy. The middleground is almost none existant

I guess you never read the sections about situational modifiers?

I guess you completely missed what I'm talking about. Situational modifiers or no, DH has the basic quality of a straight percentage system. Beginning characters are incompetent and not until they reach level x are can they be expected to handle a given situation with any consistency without the GM helping them along all the time.


-Gunhead

Except how situational modifiers mean that your starting mechanic (at say 40-60%) should be performing tasks with a +20% modifier routinely? What kind of percentile system starts characters at an incompetent level? Please remember many non-percentile systems start players with near-useless characters.

Stark wrote:Except how situational modifiers mean that your starting mechanic (at say 40-60%) should be performing tasks with a +20% modifier routinely? What kind of percentile system starts characters at an incompetent level? Please remember many non-percentile systems start players with near-useless characters.

Except DH starting character has a maximum rolled characteristic of 40 which is usually lower. Average roll is +10 which would give you a 50/50 chance of making it.
While the inherent suckiness of starting DH characters is not directly related to the system, I do think it doesn't help the issue either.
Now I'm not privy to every gaming system that measures stats / skill roll from 1-100 roll under with a d100, but WHFRP did this, Rune Quest does this as far I recall. I vaguely remember few others but I can't recall them them at the moment.
What I forgot to add that the other major reason I don't like straight percentage systems is the D100 itself. I very much favor systems that average the results through rolling mechanics.
One more thing, I'm not saying DH style systems are inherently bad or unplayable. I don't like them or haven't come across one that I'd give a go. I mean if I could come up with a dice mechanic I like that could be implemented straight into DH, I might be more inclined to run it.
Stark you're correct about other systems starting characters out as complete pussies. I freely admit I don't play those either or our starting level is above people sucking if the system is good.

-Gunhead

Bedlam wrote:Are the systems close enought to make conversion from one to the other quite easy? I'm in the middle of a dark heresy campaign at the moment and I'm intending to pick up rogue traider as soon as I have the money. The party is actually on a ship at the moment and are likely to be there for a while (part of the geller field failed while in the warp and something got on board ).

Yes, Rogue Trader characters are basically Dark Heresy Characters at, say, 5,000 XP or so at start. It's pretty easy to move the rules around and such and if you're clever, to make a hybrid between Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy. Just know that by moving over to Rogue Trader completely there's going to be a significant shift in tone to the game.

Gunhead, in D&D the odds of successfully attacking an enemy that is proper level for your party to encounter is pretty much the same as you shooting a guy with a DH/RT character with ~35 Ballistic Skill and favorable situational modifiers. But since D&d doesn't use an easily-read straight percentile system, you can pretend that it's easier for you to hit an enemy than in Dark Heresy.

Gunhead wrote:Except DH starting character has a maximum rolled characteristic of 40 which is usually lower. Average roll is +10 which would give you a 50/50 chance of making it.
While the inherent suckiness of starting DH characters is not directly related to the system, I do think it doesn't help the issue either.
Now I'm not privy to every gaming system that measures stats / skill roll from 1-100 roll under with a d100, but WHFRP did this, Rune Quest does this as far I recall. I vaguely remember few others but I can't recall them them at the moment.
What I forgot to add that the other major reason I don't like straight percentage systems is the D100 itself. I very much favor systems that average the results through rolling mechanics.
One more thing, I'm not saying DH style systems are inherently bad or unplayable. I don't like them or haven't come across one that I'd give a go. I mean if I could come up with a dice mechanic I like that could be implemented straight into DH, I might be more inclined to run it.
Stark you're correct about other systems starting characters out as complete pussies. I freely admit I don't play those either or our starting level is above people sucking if the system is good.

-Gunhead

What I'm saying is that it's not the rolling system that determines early-game ability, but the game itself. Percentiles are easy to read, easy to modify, and don't suffer from the 'moving points value' of other games (where at extremes new skill points are less valuable due to averaging effect). I mean some percentile systems (ie, decent ones) start players with skill levels up to 80% in things they're supposed to be good at - the ones that start lower are the ones based on levelling over time, which is the real issue here. Your character starts okay in games like Pendragon and gets better, and that progression is part of the game.

Amazon still doesn't recognize blood bowl either.

It's a long time since I've read or had any dealings with pendragon Stark so I'll take your word for it.
And Darkprimus I really don't know all that much about D20 odds of success since I don't touch it with the proverbial 10-foot pole. DHs problems to me aren't in the combat odds as such. It's all the non combat rolls.

It would seem amazon finally has this in stock.

-Gunhead

What's wrong with being un-successful at a skill test outside of combat? In D&D you can be very successful at a few skills, but the other ones are nigh-impossible to succeed at - representing a character's specific set of knowledge, just like skills in DH/RT. But if you don't like d20, then what systems DO you enjoy?

Modifiers apply to non-combat tests as well, so if you're trying to do something rather ordinary or simple, you're pretty much guaranteed to succeed. If you're attempting something more complex/difficult, or making an opposed skill test, then of course there's more room for failure.

It almost sounds to me like you can't stand the thought of an RPG where the player can't automatically succeed at anything they set out to do. Why bother role-playing, in that case?

d20's odds of success are entirely based on your skill modifiers and the target number. For example a first level D&D 3.5 character is asked to make a skill test versus a target number of 10, he maxed out his starting skill in the area he's making the test for for a +4 bonus to his roll, he also has a natural aptitude for it due to his high ability score for another +2, to succeed her needs to roll 4 or higher on his d20 giving and 80 percent chance to succeed at his task. In D&D 3.5 you can also take a ten on tasks in non-critical situations meaning the the example character could always preform a task requiring a roll of 16 or less assuming the situation was calm and non-life threatening. In the same situation you can also spend twenty times as long, taking a 20 in place of rolling, to get an automatic die roll of twenty for a 26. This is commonly used when searching a seemingly important room that has been cleared of enemies.

I don't mind characters failing. I do mind them failing way too often and especially if the GM has to help them along to get something done in a reasonable time frame. Actually Stark said it already and I agree with him that say a character should have around 70-80% chance of success on a check the character is qualified to do. You don't get that on a starting DH character unless the GM is really throwing you a bone specially with characters that have what is considered an average attribute in DH. Anyway I replied earlier to someone who asked what systems I use / prefer so it's there.
In addition to those there several others I've tried or used a part of someplace else, but I don't even remember them all so no point in putting them here.

To sum it up it's: A system where a qualified person with the required tools / equipment has atleast better than average chance of success when under normal conditions and atleast an average chance of success when conditions / tools etc are less than normal or the attempt is considered difficult.

Now to break it up a bit more. To my experience DH or any other % system I've come across ( and I'm excludin pendragon because I have no reason to doubt Stark) doesn't give me this because starting skills are too low, nothing is averaging the dice result and systems I know are almost totally attribute based.

And if this continues any longer we should make a separate thread for this conversation since it has almost nothing to do with Rogue Trader.

-Gunhead

Gunhead wrote:To sum it up it's: A system where a qualified person with the required tools / equipment has atleast better than average chance of success when under normal conditions and atleast an average chance of success when conditions / tools etc are less than normal or the attempt is considered difficult.

If this isn't the case, the DM is doing something wrong or the player is being stupid. The only way you're going to run into this problem is if the DM requires +0 tests for everything (even under decent circumstances), only allows you to test things once, and does not allow success-but-it-takes-longer as a result of a roll failed by couple degrees.

The DH unmodified attribute set is set up around the difficulty of shooting a moving man-sized target with a snap shot from the effective range of your weapon (between thirty and two hundred meters for a rifle, between fifteen and sixty meters for a pistol, etc) while somebody is shooting at you. A Routine test (+30), which I presume is what you mean by normal conditions (repairing a simple device like a broken wristwatch on your desk with a lamp to shine good light on it, for instance) gives an average character with some knowledge of Tech Use (int 30, Tech Use skilled) a 60% chance of success and (since 3 degrees of failure is usually indicative of critical failure) a 90% chance of not fucking things up beyond the point of being able to continue to attempt repairs. The appropriate tools confer a +10 bonus, elevating it to a 70% chance of success and a 100% chance of getting it eventually if you keep at it. A Tech Use test to repair an item takes one hour minus ten minutes per degree success, which means that an average level-1 character with a modicum of skill in the associated area, using tools, under normal conditions, will take on average 40 minutes to finish the job. A brilliant tech-priest assisted by a pair of servitors (int 50, tech use +20, tools for +10, assistance for +20, +30 on the check) will exceed the +60 maximum situational modifier - which means she will be rolling against 50+60 = 110, and will, on average, fix the watch just by squinting at it in a fixing manner (six degrees success at ten minutes a pop). She can also get the job done in a thunderstorm, on a rainy night, with people shooting at her (-30 on the check, for a total roll against 70), although it will take her as long as a normal character under normal conditions.

Similarly, a skilled sniper (BS 50), with a long-range rifle (+10 range bonus out to 100 meters) and a targeter or laser-sight (+10 bonus), firing against an unaware target (+30 surprise bonus) has a 100% chance of a hit, or an 80% chance to hit exactly where he wants to, with a called-shot penalty of -20. In the rain (-10), at night (-20), between 300 and 400 meters (-10), against an unaware target (+30), he still has a 40% chance of hitting his target.

Some tests require so little time - Search, for instance, at one test per five minutes - that even a level one character with no skill in searching (15% chance) performing a fairly difficult search (+0) with no tools and no help, has an 85% chance of succeeding in his search if he spends an hour working on it. A moderately skilled character in the same circumstance has an 85% chance of succeeding in the same search in half an hour, and a moderately skilled character with the proper tools and some assistance (30+10+20) has an 85% chance of succeeding in only ten minutes.

Feil wrote:
Repairing a simple device like a broken wristwatch on your desk with a lamp to shine good light on it, for instance gives an average character with some knowledge of Tech Use (int 30, Tech Use skilled) a 60% chance of success and (since 3 degrees of failure is usually indicative of critical failure) a 90% chance of not fucking things up beyond the point of being able to continue to attempt repairs. The appropriate tools confer a +10 bonus, elevating it to a 70% chance of success and a 100% chance of getting it eventually if you keep at it.

This is all well an good. But you're just assuming repairing a watch is so simple you get a 30% bonus, which I doubt since using a fricking radio, well vox caster, is allready an ordinary test. I'm still looking for the part where it says you get 10% for having the tools required. Having the right tools should already be factored into the circumstance bonus. Having exceptional tools grants bonuses and having bad tools gives penalties.

Feil wrote: Some tests require so little time - Search, for instance, at one test per five minutes - that even a level one character with no skill in searching (15% chance) performing a fairly difficult search (+0) with no tools and no help, has an 85% chance of succeeding in his search if he spends an hour working on it. A moderately skilled character in the same circumstance has an 85% chance of succeeding in the same search in half an hour, and a moderately skilled character with the proper tools and some assistance (30+10+20) has an 85% chance of succeeding in only ten minutes.

Well if your GM lets you roll for success until the corners fall off from your dice, any attempt will succeed given enough time. I don't and neither does any other GM in our group.

You're saying a GM can make it all better. I know that. We all know that. Hell we even played Legend of five rings thanks to our GM making it playable. What I'm looking at is rules as written, and I'm not seeing any examples in the core book to justify these claims that most rolls are at +30% or even +20%. Now that I've taken another look at the core rules I'm even more sure they've designed it so the default roll is in the -10% to +10% range.

I snipped some of the post since it mostly contained the same example again and I think I already made my point clear.
I think making comparisons between combat tests and non-combat tests is pointless since combat is far more dependent of changing situational modifiers and as I pointed out earlier my biggest points of ire with the combat system are damage and armor rules.

-Gunhead

You've got a problem with combat, too? Oh, do tell.

DPDarkPrimus wrote:You've got a problem with combat, too? Oh, do tell.

I did point these out when Hotfoot asked but I'll put it in more detail. It's the armor and damage. Now they have dos based damage for semiauto, autofire and accurate single shots. Why not make the whole damage mechanism based on dos from the get go since most damage is dealt with dos attacks?
The armor rules are pretty much what I expected. They've could've done a lot better with the armor vs. penetration mechanic but this is what I really don't get. The fucking disappearing armor rule. I mean for fucks sake, if you even say in the rules you can wear different types armor on top of each other you should do a shitload better than having only the better armor count.

I haven't done all that much higher level fighting with this system to know if the more cinematic aspect of DH combat takes a more prominent role. I hope so, since people vaulting over tables with dual wielded boltpistols blazing slaying cultists left and right would be so much better than this low level stuff.

-Gunhead

The fucking disappearing armor rule. I mean for fucks sake, if you even say in the rules you can wear different types armor on top of each other you should do a shitload better than having only the better armor count.

Well, because there's a lot of problems with that, really, but mostly it's absurd. Oh hey, I'm wearing gang leathers underneath my carapace (setting aside the silliness of wearing multiple layers of hot'n'heavy armor) so suddenly bolter rounds become less able to blast me into bloody chunks?

Of course only the best value counts, otherwise you'd have ridiculous munchkin crap stacking numbers on a sheet to be nigh-invulnerable to plasma guns.

You're allowed to wear overlapping armor because it would be stupid that you can't wear carapace vambraces just because your mesh cloak also happens to cover your arms. Doesn't mean that mesh cloak is going to do shit against that hellgun fire.