Games permit war crimes

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
Darth Tanner
Jedi Master
Posts: 1445
Joined: 2006-03-29 04:07pm
Location: Birmingham, UK

Games permit war crimes

Post by Darth Tanner »

linky @ bbc
Video games depicting war have come under fire for flouting laws governing armed conflicts.

Human rights groups played various games to see if any broke humanitarian laws that govern what is a war crime.

The study condemned the games for violating laws by letting players kill civilians, torture captives and wantonly destroy homes and buildings.

It said game makers should work harder to remind players about the real world limits on their actions.

The study was carried out by two Swiss human rights organisations - Trial and Pro Juventute. Staff played the games in the presence of lawyers skilled in the interpretation of humanitarian laws.

Twenty games were scrutinised to see if the conflicts they portrayed and what players can do in the virtual theatres of war were subject to the same limits as in the real world.

"The practically complete absence of rules or sanctions is... astonishing," said the study.

Army of Two, Call of Duty 5, Far Cry 2 and Conflict Desert Storm were among the games examined.

those who violate international humanitarian law end up as war criminals, not as winners

Trial/ Pro Juventute
The games were analysed to see "whether certain scenes and acts committed by players would constitute violations of international law if they were real, rather than virtual".

The group chose games, rather than films, because of their interactivity.

"Thus," said the report, "the line between the virtual and real experience becomes blurred and the game becomes a simulation of real life situations on the battlefield."

The testers looked for violations of the Geneva Conventions and its Additional Protocols which cover war should be waged.

In particular, the testers looked for how combatants who surrendered were treated, what happened to citizens caught up in war zones and whether damage to buildings was proportionate.

Some games did punish the killing of civilians and reward strategies that tried to limit the damage the conflict, said the study.

However, it said, many others allowed "protected objects" such as churches and mosques to be attacked; some depicted interrogations that involved torture or degradation and a few permitted summary executions.

The authors acknowledged that the project was hard because it was not clear from many of the games the scale of the conflict being depicted. This made it hard to definitively determine which humanitarian laws should be enforced.

It also said that the games were so complex that it was hard to be confident that its testers had seen all possible violations or, in games in which they found none, that no violations were possible.

It noted that, even though most players would never become real world combatants, the games could influence what people believe war is like and how soldiers conduct themselves in the real world.

It said games were sending an "erroneous" message that conflicts were waged without limits or that anything was acceptable in counter-terrorism operations.

"This is especially problematic in view of today's reality," said the study.

In particular, it said, few games it studied reflected the fact that those who "violate international humanitarian law end up as war criminals, not as winners".

The authors said they did not wish to make games less violent, instead, they wrote: "[We] call upon game producers to consequently and creatively incorporate rules of international humanitarian law and human rights into their games."

John Walker, one of the writers on the Rock, Paper, Shotgun games blog, said: "Games really are treated in a peculiar way."

He doubted that anyone would campaign for books to follow humanitarian laws or for James Bond to be denounced for machine gunning his way through a super villain's underground complex.

He said the authors did not understand that gamers can distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Said Mr Walker: "For all those who mowed down citizens in Modern Warfare 2's controversial airport level, I have the sneaking suspicion that not a great deal of them think this is lawful, nor appropriate, behaviour."

Jim Rossignol, who also writes on Rock, Paper, Shotgun, said there was scope to mix real world rules of war into games.

"Whether or not the rules of war are included in the game should be based entirely on whether that improves the experience for the player," he said.

Mr Rossignol said there was plenty of evidence that gaming violence is "fully processed" as fantasy by gamers. Studies of soldiers on the front line in Iraq showed that being a gamer did not desensitise them to what they witnessed.

He added: "Perhaps what this research demonstrates is that the researchers misunderstand what games are, and how they are treated, intellectually, by the people who play them."
Thought this was worth a laugh. Obviously a good use of time by human rights lawyers.

Are orks and the undead covered by the Geneva Convention as I'm afraid I might be charged with genocide.
Get busy living or get busy dying... unless there’s cake.
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Bounty »

Thought this was worth a laugh. Obviously a good use of time by human rights lawyers.

Are orks and the undead covered by the Geneva Convention as I'm afraid I might be charged with genocide.
You'll note they limited themselves on games that depict contemporary warfare, not fantasy. And they have a point: there's no reason why a developer who tries to make his game realistic can't add realistic consequences for the player's actions. Bonuses for playing the game with proper rules of engagement in mind can be a very interesting and rewarding extra challenge.
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Article wrote:In particular, it said, few games it studied reflected the fact that those who "violate international humanitarian law end up as war criminals, not as winners".
Those who violate international humanitarian law allways end up as war criminals? That would be really nice but unfortunately it´s pure nonsense. This sounds like they want games to give the players a set of rose tinted glasses.
Bounty wrote: You'll note they limited themselves on games that depict contemporary warfare, not fantasy. And they have a point: there's no reason why a developer who tries to make his game realistic can't add realistic consequences for the player's actions. Bonuses for playing the game with proper rules of engagement in mind can be a very interesting and rewarding extra challenge.
There´s no reason that a developer can´t do it but there´s a reason why he might not want to do it. If such consequences don´t increase or even decrease the fun that can be had with a game (for whatever reason) it makes no sense to implement it. Note that i´m not saying that it´s impossible to implement such consequences but most of the time it probably just doesn´t make any sense.
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Bounty »

It shouldn't be that hard to add a "don't shoot civilians" objective or penalize collateral damage; games have been doing that since at least the GoldenEye days.
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Bounty wrote:It shouldn't be that hard to add a "don't shoot civilians" objective or penalize collateral damage; games have been doing that since at least the GoldenEye days.
Games have been doing that since early C64 days, possibly earlier. But why implement something that disallows you to go on a rampage and blow up people and stuff when there are people who enjoy doing it? I don´t doubt that there are cases where it makes sense to punish the player for shooting civilians but there are other cases where it doesn´t make sense.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Rahvin »

Games, even those professed to be "realistic," do not include realistic consequences for actions? They're an escape from reality where being able to take actions that would be inadvisable or impossible in real life are the entire point?

Color me shocked.

Next they'll be saying that the Need for Speed series needs to implement consequences for breaking the speed limit.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Bounty »

Next they'll be saying that the Need for Speed series needs to implement consequences for breaking the speed limit.
Hilariously, it does - in Carbon and Most Wanted the cops chase and arrest you all the damn time, and Pro Street's announcer banter is all about why you should drive safely on the road and keep racing to the track. Way to shoot yourself in the foot there.
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Is there a difference between commiting war crimes in games and kids playing the bad guy in cops and robbers? I mean, there is a line that can be crossed by games, for example i think most people would consider a racist game where you have to "hunt down the nigger" absolutely intolerable. Or a concentration camp manager or similar horrible shit.

How do we establish where this line is or is it purely subjective? Does it simply have to do with the fact that hunting the black guy would target a specific group that has a history of facing hate crimes whereas civilians are a much more general group?
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Bounty »

Is there a difference between commiting war crimes in games and kids playing the bad guy in cops and robbers?
The line for me would be the degree to which the game depicts the behaviour to be acceptable. I'm much more disturbed by a game that presents torture as a legitimate way of getting information than I would be by a game that, for instance, simulates burglaries as long as the latter clearly acknowledges that you are playing a villain.

Simply put, if the game tells me "go have fun being a villain", that's cool; if it says "go save democracy, PS, rape and pillage the villagers so they won't rebel", that crosses a line.
User avatar
Scottish Ninja
Jedi Knight
Posts: 964
Joined: 2007-02-26 06:39pm
Location: Not Scotland, that's for sure

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Scottish Ninja »

Army of Two, Call of Duty 5, Far Cry 2 and Conflict Desert Storm were among the games examined.
Since for most people, Call of Duty: World at War is CoD5, that would be pretty hilarious.

"This depiction of historical events permits the player to commit war crimes!"
Image
"If the flight succeeds, you swipe an absurd amount of prestige for a single mission. Heroes of the Zenobian Onion will literally rain upon you." - PeZook
"If the capsule explodes, heroes of the Zenobian Onion will still rain upon us. Literally!" - Shroom
Cosmonaut Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (deceased, rain), Cosmonaut Petr Petrovich Petrov, Unnamed MASA Engineer, and Unnamed Zenobian Engineerski in Let's play: BARIS
Captain, MFS Robber Baron, PRFYNAFBTFC - "Absolute Corruption Powers Absolutely"
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Bounty wrote:
Is there a difference between commiting war crimes in games and kids playing the bad guy in cops and robbers?
The line for me would be the degree to which the game depicts the behaviour to be acceptable. I'm much more disturbed by a game that presents torture as a legitimate way of getting information than I would be by a game that, for instance, simulates burglaries as long as the latter clearly acknowledges that you are playing a villain.

Simply put, if the game tells me "go have fun being a villain", that's cool; if it says "go save democracy, PS, rape and pillage the villagers so they won't rebel", that crosses a line.
Ok, so what if we take the "go have fun being a villain" to the extreme and put you into the role of a KKK member. I doubt anyone who is not a racist fuck himself would have fun playing such a character.
On the other hand GTA gave you extra, super bonus points if you managed, for no reason at all, to run over a line of harmless Hare Krishnas. But most people seem to find that acceptable.
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Serafine666 »

I think one of the problems with getting too deeply into war crimes laws in games to enhance realism is that you get into the problem of limited resources. If a game company has a choice between putting in the intense programming required to shoot the gun out of the guy's hand (which is realistic albeit insanely implausible) and put in the programming to determine the criminality of certain actions in war (keeping in mind that war crimes only really apply to the country that loses as pitiful as that is), which are they most likely to choose? When I'm playing the game "War Leaders", I have the option of sending a wing of B52s over a tightly-packed residential neighborhood to destroy a German armored column; should the game penalize me for this considering that mass bombings of civilians was considered perfectly acceptable in WW2, despite the fact that we presently regard it as a war crime? "World In Conflict" imagines a scenario in which America has to repel a Soviet invasion of Washington; as part of the storyline, you use a tactical nuclear weapon on a town to halt the Soviet advance and later, are practically forced to blast apartment buildings (that are occupied by civilians) out of your way to drive the USSR out before a strategic nuclear weapon is used on Seattle; both of these things are probably war crimes but how do you suggest that a game compensate?
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Steel
Jedi Master
Posts: 1125
Joined: 2005-12-09 03:49pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Steel »

I would say that this report is dissimilar to most on this subject in that it advocates having reasonable consequences incorporated into the game, rather than banning the actions outright. This is quite a reasonable point to raise. The question is when is it reasonable to have consequences in a game.

However in the general case of game violence I would say that acts committed in games have NO moral value. That is to say pressing E to unlock a box and pick up some ammo should be assigned the same moral value as pressing LMB to bash Barney the security guard round the head and take his ammo: none. To say that certain actions in a game are more or less immoral than others is to say that the game state carries ANY weight. For instance it is not immoral to make a robot that only builds cars, as robots currently do, but making that exact same robot as a (giant) human shaped one would not in any way change the situation.

EDIT: Theres also a grey area here. For example, in JA2 your mercenaries can use hollow points and mustard gas, and so can the army of the country you were hired to 'liberate'. Its a war crime for the armed forces to be using the hollow points but not for your mercs.
Apparently nobody can see you without a signature.
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Steel wrote: However in the general case of game violence I would say that acts committed in games have NO moral value. That is to say pressing E to unlock a box and pick up some ammo should be assigned the same moral value as pressing LMB to bash Barney the security guard round the head and take his ammo: none. To say that certain actions in a game are more or less immoral than others is to say that the game state carries ANY weight. For instance it is not immoral to make a robot that only builds cars, as robots currently do, but making that exact same robot as a (giant) human shaped one would not in any way change the situation.
According to that logic you´d be ok with playing "Hunt the nigger" or "KZ Manager" if only the game mechanics were good? Would you play "Rape the 10 year old" if it had nice gameplay?

Why or why not?
User avatar
Setzer
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 3138
Joined: 2002-08-30 11:45am

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Setzer »

I think Ace Combat Zero had something that took this into account. You made more money if you killed all the targets, but got a better reputation in game if you stuck to purely military targets. It also influenced what kind of levels you played through. For example, in the mercenary path, the bombing of Hoffnung is pretty much held to be an atrocity. In Red Faction 2, the bad path ended with your character being put on trial for slaughtering civilians. Putting things like this in games would enhance the experience as well as providing different paths the plot can take.
Image
User avatar
Steel
Jedi Master
Posts: 1125
Joined: 2005-12-09 03:49pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Steel »

salm wrote:
Steel wrote: However in the general case of game violence I would say that acts committed in games have NO moral value. That is to say pressing E to unlock a box and pick up some ammo should be assigned the same moral value as pressing LMB to bash Barney the security guard round the head and take his ammo: none. To say that certain actions in a game are more or less immoral than others is to say that the game state carries ANY weight. For instance it is not immoral to make a robot that only builds cars, as robots currently do, but making that exact same robot as a (giant) human shaped one would not in any way change the situation.
According to that logic you´d be ok with playing "Hunt the nigger" or "KZ Manager" if only the game mechanics were good? Would you play "Rape the 10 year old" if it had nice gameplay?

Why or why not?
Why not? It is up to you to establish that the abritrary collection of 0s and 1s that makes up theme hospital is in fact objectively different to those that make up KKK dance dance revolution.

You understand that actions are considered 'good' or 'bad' because we can assess their impact on reality in a measurable way. The game world has no significance. If you think any single action there DOES have significance you're a monster if you play anything more violent than MS paint. Unless you're campaigning for equal rights for RAM to be in the state it chooses rather than the oppressive regime of players assigning it 0s and 1s?
Apparently nobody can see you without a signature.
User avatar
salm
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 10296
Joined: 2002-09-09 08:25pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by salm »

Not sure if i understand you correctly. Are you saying that you´d play massively racist games?
User avatar
Steel
Jedi Master
Posts: 1125
Joined: 2005-12-09 03:49pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Steel »

salm wrote:Not sure if i understand you correctly. Are you saying that you´d play massively racist games?
I'm saying that there is no reason not to. You have to establish that doing so is 'evil'.
Apparently nobody can see you without a signature.
Duckie
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3980
Joined: 2003-08-28 08:16pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Duckie »

It's not inherently immoral to play a racist game. I don't see how you can assign any moral content to a video game, since killing an enemy in a game isn't actual murder in self defense, so a game where you deny mortgages to people with non-white sounding names is not actually housing discrimination.

However, I would say that enjoying an extremely racist game for its racist content probably says something about a person in the same way as enjoying an extremely violent torture porn film like SAW probably says something about a person.

There's a significant difference between playing a game, loving a game in general, and loving a game for a specific reason.
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by fgalkin »

salm wrote:
Bounty wrote:It shouldn't be that hard to add a "don't shoot civilians" objective or penalize collateral damage; games have been doing that since at least the GoldenEye days.
Games have been doing that since early C64 days, possibly earlier. But why implement something that disallows you to go on a rampage and blow up people and stuff when there are people who enjoy doing it? I don´t doubt that there are cases where it makes sense to punish the player for shooting civilians but there are other cases where it doesn´t make sense.
Just because something is "fun" doesn't mean you should do it?

And, by the way, there is no real inherent difference between racist games and things like the GTA series. The only difference is the selection criteria of the victims, and the type of people being killed, so it could be argued that one is as bad as the other.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4260
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by loomer »

How do you feel about JFK: Reloaded, Salm, since you're going off about morality?
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
Worlds Spanner
Jedi Knight
Posts: 542
Joined: 2003-04-30 03:51pm

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Worlds Spanner »

Just last week I was playing Might and Magic VI, and my roommate walked in and accused me of committing goblin genocide.

To which I said: "But I need their loot!"
If you don't ask, how will you know?
Edward Yee
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3395
Joined: 2005-07-31 06:48am

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Edward Yee »

Having taken a look at the report myself, an interesting moment was the report writers speaking positively about the ROE restriction in CoD4's "Death From Above" re: the church, but noticing that there wasn't any other ROE restriction on 'international law' prohibited-targets -- for example, the water towers and other civilian structures not in immediate use by the attackers.
Setzer wrote:I think Ace Combat Zero had something that took this into account. You made more money if you killed all the targets, but got a better reputation in game if you stuck to purely military targets. It also influenced what kind of levels you played through. For example, in the mercenary path, the bombing of Hoffnung is pretty much held to be an atrocity.
The potential issue is that the way it was implemented in ACZ, it simply became a game mechanic using a KOTOR-style karma meter called the "Ace Style Gauge," that arbitrarily affected dialogue and what enemy "boss" squadrons you faced in certain missions, but only going into those missions and without any immediate consequences during the current mission in which one was killing "yellow" targets (mission-killed, unarmed, or civilian). At no point does the story actually change beyond these, and two of the missions, instead of being affected by your karma ("Ace Style"), simply have you choose which of the three portions of the overall operation you wish to participate in.

Moreover, the Ace Style Gauge only affected the Campaign, so in Free Mode you would become free to farm to your heart's content with no in-Campaign consequences.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. :D" - bcoogler on this

"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet

Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists."
SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
User avatar
DPDarkPrimus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 18399
Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Far Cry 2 takes place in an African shithole in the middle of a civil war, and ironically enough no, you CAN'T kill any civilians! Everyone you are hired to snuff out is in some way working directly for one of the opposing sides of the conflict.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.

Re: Games permit war crimes

Post by Darksider »

Edward Yee wrote: snip AC0 discussion
Ironically enough, a lot of the yellow "prohibited" targets would actually be considered legitimate in a real war. Yeah, they burned Hoffnung to the ground, but it was a major military industrial target. I've heard it's supposed to be a commentary on the firebombing of Dresden, thus proving once again that the Japanese know nothing about the second world war. Since Dresden's military output was minimal, whereas hoffnung's appears to be substantial.

as for some of the other "yellow" targets, I'm pretty sure that attacking retreating fighters is allowed during wartime, and so is bombing storage containers on enemy military bases. The only time I can think of that the yellow targets would be prohibited is in the second mission, where you are permitted to light up a bunch of houses for some reason because the enemy placed SAMs in the middle of them.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
Post Reply