Need a joystick for casual gaming

[Dave]

So, courtesy of the Steam Holiday Sale, I am now the "owner" [1] of IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946

I suppose, in retrospect, I should have realized I was going to be needing a joystick for a flight sim.

In keeping with the board's policy I conducted a search, but found that the newest thread on the topic was over two years old. [2][3][4][5]

I am only a casual gamer, my price range is not in excess of $50 USD, and I would like to request that it be reliable and that it also work on Linux -- however, these days I presume that has become significantly less of an issue.

I anticipate playing IL-2, Freespace, and Orbiter with this joystick in the near future.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Board, do you have any more current recommendations?

[1] Though as I read the fine print I suspect the game is actually under an indefinite lease from Steam.
[2] http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 1&p=262262
[3] http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &p=2618095
[4] http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &p=2592941
[5] http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4&t=104540

[General Zod]

Just get a 360 controller off Amazon. They're less than $40 and one of the best controllers you can get. There's apparently drivers for linux, though I'm not really familiar enough with linux to say what builds they'll work with.

[Executor32]

Or, if you'd prefer a traditional joystick, you can get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro from Amazon for $25.

[Oskuro]

I bought my current controller partly to use as a Joystick, but the analog sticks do not offer the sheer manly pleasure of holding a true phallic joystick and squeezing the trigger to go pew pew on my targets.

I'm thinking of adquiring some cheap brand for around 20€ to try it out and see if the investment in a better joystick is worth it. So yeah, this thread interests me too.

[weemadando]

Or, if you'd prefer a traditional joystick, you can get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro from Amazon for $25.

I heartily endorse this stick.

[Bounty]

I have an older Thrustmaster and it has served me well; it was €20 new with enough buttons and nice detailing. The current version has extra controls and mapping functions but shouldn't cost much more.

[Mr Bean]

30$ is about the right price range for a good Flight stick. Which funny enough is about the cost of a new 360 controller. Get the Flight stick. They have gotten cheap over the years and if your willing to pay about 100$ you can go all the way into crazy down and start looking at Saitek's Pro series X65F Pro stick or the older one you can find for about 70$ the X52. I have an X52 myself after going on what I can only describe as a spending spree with and buying all the old flight games and I missed plus the stick to play them. Sad to say I've still never installed most of them. And the x52 sits in my storage in a box. Best 80$ I ever spent.

[Edi]

Or, if you'd prefer a traditional joystick, you can get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro from Amazon for $25.

I heartily endorse this stick.

QFT. I've got that too and it's quite excellent.

[phred]

I loves my Cyborg Evo. Saitek generally makes good joysticks.

Or, if you'd prefer a traditional joystick, you can get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro from Amazon for $25.

You would probably be hard pressed to find someone that has bad things to say about this joystick as well.

I'm not sure about drivers for linux however. You may want to check their sites before purchasing.

[Stark]

Just remember a joystick is only good for one thing, and if you're not doing that one thing enough you wasted your money. Controllers are just fine for flight sims (unless you like to imagine you're a Real Jet Pilot or something) but joysticks are rubbish for first person shooters, puzzle games, adventure games, etc. I don't really think it's worth buying any peripheral just for gaming on PC; if you own a console get an adapter for that controller or get a cheap joystick if you're the kind of guy that plays flight sims all the time.

Il-2 specifically is extremely controller-compatible.

[CaptJodan]

So, courtesy of the Steam Holiday Sale, I am now the "owner" [1] of IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946

Getting to that fine sim a bit late, aren't we?

Anyway, I'm interested in this topic as well. I have a reliable Sidewinder Precision 2 joystick that has served me well for many years, but I keep wondering whether going to force feedback would be worth getting into. IL-2, MS Flight Simulator X, Orbiter, and Black Shark are some of the games I toy around with. Most of those don't need it, but I wonder if Black Shark would be slightly easier to control with a FF stick. I can't feel the onset of vortex ring state, and I imagine my crash rate from stupidity would lesson if I had some warning.

I also wonder if FF sticks break more frequently. My Sidewinder is the first stick in a long time to last several years, and I don't want to be out replacing controllers every few months, so if they're inherently more breakable, no reason to go that route...just avoid doing too many stupid things with a helicopter.

[Drooling Iguana]

Or, if you'd prefer a traditional joystick, you can get a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro from Amazon for $25.

You would probably be hard pressed to find someone that has bad things to say about this joystick as well.

I'm not sure about drivers for linux however. You may want to check their sites before purchasing.

I've got this joystick and it works fine in Linux as a standard USB HID. No special drivers required.

[Alyeska]

Mark down another vote for the Logitech Extreme 3d. Its been the gold standard for joysticks for a number of years. Its more than a simple joystick, but not one of those monster complex ones. Very well designed and easy to use. Just about any game that remotely supports a joystick plays good with this one. And its gotten fairly cheap.

[Glocksman]

Just remember a joystick is only good for one thing, and if you're not doing that one thing enough you wasted your money. Controllers are just fine for flight sims (unless you like to imagine you're a Real Jet Pilot or something) but joysticks are rubbish for first person shooters, puzzle games, adventure games, etc. I don't really think it's worth buying any peripheral just for gaming on PC; if you own a console get an adapter for that controller or get a cheap joystick if you're the kind of guy that plays flight sims all the time.

Il-2 specifically is extremely controller-compatible.

My earliest gaming experiences were on Atari 2600, Apple IIe, Commodore PET, VIC20 and C64 machines, and joysticks were the only thing commonly available 'in the day'.

Perhaps that colors my perception, but I don't find a traditional joystick to be much of a limitation in other types of games.

YMMV, though.

[Chris OFarrell]

Add another vote for the Extreme 3D Pro.

It's really the perfect joystick. Cheap, but solidly constructed, with all 3 axis on the joystick, a throttle and 10 programmable buttons (Direct Input means with 99% of games you can map any button to any function you want) in addition to the primary and secondery triggers.

And a hat switch.

But you DON'T have to use all of the functionality if you don't want to either.

Really, there is a reason that this joystick has been in production for as long as it has.

[Stark]

My earliest gaming experiences were on Atari 2600, Apple IIe, Commodore PET, VIC20 and C64 machines, and joysticks were the only thing commonly available 'in the day'.

Perhaps that colors my perception, but I don't find a traditional joystick to be much of a limitation in other types of games.

YMMV, though.

Just because something was done on a platform so shit you had to use code to start a game doesn't mean it was ever a good idea. Remember those shit digital joysticks and how much they sucked for simple things like 'aim artillery piece'? We're not talking about modern multi-position sticks here; digital, eight-position was complete shit and if that's how you want to play that's not my problem. A more sensible counter would have been to suggest that there are few PC games other than flight sims that aren't better played with a mouse anyway.

Sacred 2 is a notable exception, wherein the controller setup is way better than the mouse setup. Turns out they're idiots.

[Oskuro]

Agreeing with Stark here. Those old joysticks were little more than gamepads with a stick glued on top, and for most 2d games they were cumbersome (hint: the Nintendo gamepad was successful for a reason).


The bottom line is how the game plays. For point-and-click games the mouse is the best option, and that even includes Freelancer (you move the cursor around the screen to shoot at things instead of just steering the ship).

Joysticks are best for direct manuevering control, that is, when the stick moves the body of your vehicle directly, and note the word 'vehicle', it doesn't work as good for human-y movement, FPSeses are predominantly point-and-click.

I'd argue that Joysticks don't even work well for driving simulators who, barring an actual wheel, probably benefit most from a gamepad, specially if it has analog sticks.

[Glocksman]

Agreeing with Stark here. Those old joysticks were little more than gamepads with a stick glued on top, and for most 2d games they were cumbersome (hint: the Nintendo gamepad was successful for a reason).


The bottom line is how the game plays. For point-and-click games the mouse is the best option, and that even includes Freelancer (you move the cursor around the screen to shoot at things instead of just steering the ship).

Joysticks are best for direct manuevering control, that is, when the stick moves the body of your vehicle directly, and note the word 'vehicle', it doesn't work as good for human-y movement, FPSeses are predominantly point-and-click.

I'd argue that Joysticks don't even work well for driving simulators who, barring an actual wheel, probably benefit most from a gamepad, specially if it has analog sticks.

It's my inner Luddite that makes me prefer joysticks, I guess.
That said, my favorite games are driving and flight simulators, and I have the consensus recommended joystick for the flight sims and a really nice Logitech force feedback steering wheel and pedals for the driving games.

Though on a serious note, my preference for joysticks might be because I've had hand tremors for decades, and every time I'd use a pad, I'd wind up screwing up badly compared to how I'd do with a joystick.

Joysticks tend to be more 'forgiving' of a +-1mm hand tremor than a gamepad or at least they were back when I was heavily into gaming.

[MKSheppard]

Controllers are just fine for flight sims

Absolutely wrong. If you haven't played a flight sim with a joystick, you've missed a lot. Started off with Aces of the Pacific (anyone remember that)?

[Stark]

What are you talking about? Your statement doesn't support your argument. Controllers are indeed just fine for flight sims; the fact that you claim someone might 'miss out' by not using a joystick is irrelevant. Equally irrelevant is the fact that of course I've used joysticks to play flight sims, and that's why I'm qualified to comment here.

So what exactly do you 'miss out' on my not using a joystick? Imagine that they don't have a giant HOTAS setup and aren't playing a radar simulator like LOMAC. Even a simple joystick requires the second hand to work throttle or hold it, so keyboard access isn't the problem. Anyone with an ability to learn can use thumbsticks (which are technically exactly the same as joysticks) to fly a plane, and the addition of another two (often 3) axes and a d-pad equals or exceeds most 'normal' joysticks.

Joysticks tend to be more 'forgiving' of a +-1mm hand tremor than a gamepad or at least they were back when I was heavily into gaming.

This is certainly very true; without configurable deadzones its terrible (especially as thumbsticks have a tendency to 'lean' as they get very old). It's much like how most PC d-pads are far too sensitive so pressing 'right' without pressing 'up+right' is nearly impossible, except it can be easily remedied in options. However, countering 'it's more economical to just buy a controller because joysticks are limited utility' with 'buy a steering wheel and pedals for driving games' is a bit odd. Even the crazy cargame guy I know with the wheel and pedals never uses them because it requires space, table to bolt them to, etc and it's not worth it because controllers work fine.

Has anyone tried to play an FPS with a stick and use the hat for turning? It's hilarious, but if you could learn how it would work... you'd just be waving the stick around like a retard to do complex things like 'enter door' and 'track target'.

[Oskuro]

Anyone with an ability to learn can use thumbsticks (which are technically exactly the same as joysticks) to fly a plane, and the addition of another two (often 3) axes and a d-pad equals or exceeds most 'normal' joysticks.

It's not really about the capabilities of the controller itself, but about the motion range and precision of the body part controlling it. It is not the same to move your forearm or wrist around than your thumbs, thus leading to very different controls. Just like trackball mice that have the ball under your thumb, they can be used all right, but the muscular motions are completely different from a regular mouse, wich, depending on the application (for example, trying to use an art program) makes them less suitable.

And, again, let's not forget that holding a joystick and using the trigger is cool all by itself.

Has anyone tried to play an FPS with a stick and use the hat for turning? It's hilarious, but if you could learn how it would work... you'd just be waving the stick around like a retard to do complex things like 'enter door' and 'track target'.

Oh, I have, with Quake 1 soon after getting it. The joystick was quickly shelved afterwards. Although it is worth noting that, for years, I played Quake and Quake 2 using only the keyboard (wasd for movement, cursors for aiming) until a kid at a cyber-cafe introduced me to mouse-controlled aiming wich, despite my absolute control of the keyboard-only scheme, proved to be vastly superior almost inmediately. Hence my opinion on certain controller types being better for certain games, and my subsequent disdain for controller-using console FPSeses.

Although I've been wondering, why didn't they add a trackball to the PS and Xbox controller? It would be invaluable for camera control in many games, as well as making point-and-click games drastically easier to implement (like RTSeses).

[Starglider]

What are you talking about? Your statement doesn't support your argument. Controllers are indeed just fine for flight sims; the fact that you claim someone might 'miss out' by not using a joystick is irrelevant.

Thumbsticks are less precise than joysticks (reasonably modern analogue ones at least). This doesn't matter for combat flight sims where you spend nearly all of your time hard maneuvering. It does make a difference if you're trying to land a 747 smoothly in MS Flight Sim.

[Stark]

Although I've been wondering, why didn't they add a trackball to the PS and Xbox controller? It would be invaluable for camera control in many games, as well as making point-and-click games drastically easier to implement (like RTSeses).

Where would you put it? As far as I know you need pretty constant control of a trackball, so it'd probably need to displace a stick which would ruin it. Second thumb is fine for camera control anyway.

Thumbs are of course less precise than joysticks, but the market of games/players who need that accuracy is even tinier than the market of people who play flight sims at all. I excluded radar simulators from my comparison for a reason; thumbsticks are inappropriate for a game where small control movements in the wrong direction are fatal. The deadzone (which deals with the sensitivity issue) tends to make this worse, just like on a crap joystick, where control is very muddly. This is still not anything you 'miss out' on, it's just a result of the shorter height of the shaft. I dimly remember some Tandy joysticks in the 80s that were very short, narrow sticks that were intended to be used essentailly as a thumbstick.

However, anyone who plays console games can be far more precise with thumbs than most PC-only players would probably imagine.

Aww, yeah.



Look at all that play! And 'deluxe' = 'has two buttons'!

[Drooling Iguana]

Thumbsticks are less precise than joysticks (reasonably modern analogue ones at least). This doesn't matter for combat flight sims where you spend nearly all of your time hard maneuvering. It does make a difference if you're trying to land a 747 smoothly in MS Flight Sim.

I was wishing for a regular joystick when I was playing the Ace Combat games on the PS2. My thumbs were always in danger of sliding off the sticks during heavy manoeuvring.

Especially since the PS2 has USB ports, so it kinda pisses me off that you can't plug a regular HID joystick into it. I guess then they couldn't sell their super-expensive HOTAS setup that only works with three games.

And most cheap joysticks (including the Logitech one that everyone's recommending) also suck for more realistic flight sims, due to their using the twisty-handle for rudder control. Makes it very difficult to operate the rudder independently of the pitch and roll, which makes level turns a pain in the ass. They're awesome for arcadey flight sims, though, and even though those are generally playable with a gamepad the extra precision and generally better "feel" of the joystick makes it well worth the ~$30 that they typically cost.

[Stark]

PS2 thumbsticks suck; they're shaped the exactly wrong way. Once the texture wears off there's no grip at all.