[360] Tropico 3 kills PC gaming

[Stark]

I finally got a hold of Tropico 3 on 360 (since DA:O finally arrived and is dead boring) and it really highlights how genres regarded as a PC mainstay can work just fine on a console if you put a bit more work into it than 'thumbstick controls mouse hurf durf'.

Aside from the main menu highlight being a colour colour-blind people can't read (a problem for my old mate Ken), the interface is the same as PC, with the D-pad navigating the info box at the bottom of the screen. You steer the camera with a fixed interaction point at the centre rather tahn controlling a mouse and panning separately. It inherits the PC problems (ie, it's very difficult to find 'alert areas' like protests or rebels because there's no context 'jump to news report' button, it's hard to filter population by useful information, etc) but it works just as well. My experience with Tropico 3 on PC meant I had no problems with the somewhat quirkly manner of managing structures.

So we have a complex city management politics game that works totally fine on console; while it plays differently console players are not handicapped beyond 'man the camera pans slow when you're placing buildings'. Sure, the game is confused about whether it wants to be Simcity or Diplomacy and suffers a bit, but it's still a laugh and fun. Aside from hilarious Steam sales there is no reason to prefer the PC version.

So, that leaves PCs with... MMOs.

[Covenant]

I'm still waiting for the PS3 release. I don't have a 360, dammit!

I do a lot of PC gaming, but mostly because the games my friends like to play multiplayer are RTS games (thus my long, anguished review of C&C4) but I have no issues seeing the consoles as the inheritor to the PC as the gaming platform of choice. It's a purpose-built gaming PC designed to work on a TV, with simplified UI devices and a limited operating system. It's really a great idea.

The UI hardware will need to catch up to mice (controller with a trackball center button/dpad perhaps?) before it'll be able to do RTS games and a few other things, but it's great to see Tropico, Sim City, and other strategy games getting a new home on the consoles. If my jobs didn't require graphics-intensive desktop PCs anyway I would probably be using a laptop for typing and writing and a console for all my gaming, and it's just cheaper and better for it.

The graphics cards are a bit flakey. When developing for the 360, we had to correct a DirectX error that the PC version fixes automatically, and they're pretty weak in some areas. But I still prefer gaming on the Console when I can, and I am hoping to get an HD tv some time when I've got the cash and actually get to use the thing at it's full resolution.

[Stark]

It's a deliberate thing to stop people just plugging the keyboards everyone have in; it's possible the console's move towards controller-less gaming may offer interface possibilities to replace the lack of a mouse; that said, in Tropico they could have just used LT to change the controls to a cursor, as they use RT to change controls for the camera and time/info screens.

[Havok]

Why couldn't consoles just have a keyboard mouse controller contraption that would work for certain games?

[Stark]

There's no technical reason, indeed any USB mouse and keyboard will ALREADY work. Games are generally not designed to require not 'in-box' hardware, even though everyone (especially everyone who wants to use a mouse) will have one. Like I said, I think it's deliberate to keep the games in the target market. I believe some games (like UT3) use the mouse-keyboard, though.

[adam_grif]

So, that leaves PCs with... MMOs.

And a superior control scheme for shooters and RTS and complex strategy games, of course. Also, MMO's have been on consoles before.

[Covenant]

Why couldn't consoles just have a keyboard mouse controller contraption that would work for certain games?

And to add to what Stark said, console companies make a good amount of money selling 60-80 dollar input devices that are very simple doodads hooked to a USB device. If everyone could just plug in their own wireless keyboards and mice, that's a lot of lost revenue, as well as an additional headache for some game developers. Implementing mouse and keyboard input is a trivial task, but it's just one more task they'll have to do, especially if you now needed to do redundant designs and run the risk of people having a loss of functionality. Your keyboards don't come with sixaxis tech or rumblepacks yet.

Plenty of people buy those arcade sticks for fighting games though, which provides them with a rather unfair advantage, so it's not like it's unprecedented.

[Stark]

So, that leaves PCs with... MMOs.

And a superior control scheme for shooters and RTS and complex strategy games, of course. Also, MMO's have been on consoles before.

Actually, the point of my post was that if you don't just say 'LOL THUMBSTICKS' PCs actually don't have a 'superior' control scheme for shooters and RTS games and certainly not complex strategy games. I certianly didn't yearn for a mouse playing Darwinia or Metro 2033; saying something like Supreme Commander suffers is explictly missing the point.

Since the FPS and RTS 'advantages' are based on response speed, what makes you think consoles have inferior controls for something like Rome? Rome would translate trivially to a controller layout, and as shown by Tropico it wouldn't require the sacrifice of any features (indeed forcing a polished UI on a TW game would probably be an improvement).

As another example, WoW-style MMOs would translate poorly to console due to UI constraints (especially the lack of 90 hotkeys), which is only a problem due to WoW MMO design. Guild wars would probably work fine. The point is intelligent UI and game design mean whole genres are not 'bad' on console. Hell, Endwar sucked but it's controls were totally fine.

[Jordie]

Why couldn't consoles just have a keyboard mouse controller contraption that would work for certain games?

There's this and this.

[adam_grif]

Actually, the point of my post was that if you don't just say 'LOL THUMBSTICKS' PCs actually don't have a 'superior' control scheme for shooters and RTS games and certainly not complex strategy games.

What?

I certianly didn't yearn for a mouse playing Darwinia or Metro 2033; saying something like Supreme Commander suffers is explictly missing the point.

Nobody ever said you couldn't get certain games working well on console. Large scale strategy is extremely difficult to execute well on console, and I don't see how this is "missing the point".

As another example, WoW-style MMOs would translate poorly to console due to UI constraints (especially the lack of 90 hotkeys), which is only a problem due to WoW MMO design. Guild wars would probably work fine. The point is intelligent UI and game design mean whole genres are not 'bad' on console. Hell, Endwar sucked but it's controls were totally fine.

Forcing games to be shoehorned onto a controller doesn't implicitly make the games have "better design". It can, but it does not necessarily imply it. Forcing Diablo 2 onto a NES pad might have resulted in "streamlined design" and simplification, but that would have sacrificed loads and loads of features.

Unless you can somehow demonstrate that a 360 controller is the ultimate, irrefutably optimal number of buttons, it's just going to boil down to personal opinion. More options is better because if you want to use the extra buttons, you can, but you can still do a nice streamlined game as well.

[Stark]

Since you're pleading stupidity, I'll repeat myself; games either designed for controllers or sensibly converted to such don't suffer most of the scaremongering horror PC-philes claim. You suggestion that large-scale strategy is 'extremely difficult' on console when I just pointed out a complex management game that works just fine is pretty lame. In short, I'm here to demonstrate a fact while you're just spouting unsourced nonsense like 'everyone knows consoles suck for strategy'.

Your PC fanboyishness is displayed when you claim that I said these games had 'better design'. I'm not saying console games or controls are better; I'm saying the misinformation spread about strategy games on consoles is demonstrably wrong. If that threatens you, you need to grow up. Ironically Diablo games are excellent on consoles as demonstrated by Sacred 2, despite your irrelevant NES red herring.

I'd like you to quote me saying 'a 360 controller is the ultimate, irrefutably optimal number of buttons' or I'm not going to prove shit. Stop being insecure and actually think about this - many genres traditionally seen as impossible on console or PC mainstays are moving to consoles successfully. Maybe - just maybe - this means the religious horror of complex games on consoles is baseless and wrong. People are already talking about Diablo 3 on console, and while I personally doubt that would happen, Sacred 2 shows it could be successful and would break yet another genre away from 'PC only'.

[adam_grif]

Since you're pleading stupidity, I'll repeat myself; games either designed for controllers or sensibly converted to such don't suffer most of the scaremongering horror PC-philes claim.

I have no idea to which scaremongering you're referring. If you're saying that strategy can work on console, I'm not disputing that claim. If you're claiming that they're every bit as good and that PC RTS doesn't offer anything over the console versions, I disagree.

I'm not saying console games or controls are better; I'm saying the misinformation spread about strategy games on consoles is demonstrably wrong.

No, you were saying that the only Genre that PC is "left with" is MMO's, i.e. that it's the only genre that the PC does better than console.

Actually this argument is fucking stupid anyway, because this isn't console vs PC, it's K&M vs Gamepad.

I'm saying the misinformation spread about strategy games on consoles is demonstrably wrong.

And what misinformation is that? That they don't control as well? Maybe your Tropico (I can't even tell you what genre that game is without looking it up, other than the vague qualifier of "strategy") does work really nicely on a gamepad, but the most streamlined and functional RTS games on console (Red Alert 3, Halo Wars, EndWar et al.) either control better on PC, or don't play like a PC RTS game does.

Whether the altered design to accommodate being played on a gamepad is better or worse is entirely up to each player to decide for themselves, but you do have to alter your design with it in mind.

You suggestion that large-scale strategy is 'extremely difficult' on console when I just pointed out a complex management game that works just fine is pretty lame.

What, so some kind of Sim Management game plays well on a gamepad, therefore all complex strategy games will? You tried to veto SupCom as an example why exactly?

I'd like you to quote me saying 'a 360 controller is the ultimate, irrefutably optimal number of buttons' or I'm not going to prove shit.

I misread one of your sentences, never mind. You said that intelligent UI and game design means they don't suck on console, I thought you saying that intelligent UI and game design = console play and that K&M wasn't part of "good design and intelligent UI".

Stop being insecure and actually think about this - many genres traditionally seen as impossible on console or PC mainstays are moving to consoles successfully. Maybe - just maybe - this means the religious horror of complex games on consoles is baseless and wrong. People are already talking about Diablo 3 on console, and while I personally doubt that would happen, Sacred 2 shows it could be successful and would break yet another genre away from 'PC only'.

Oh, I'd like you to quote me as saying that genres traditionally seen as impossible on console or mainstays of PC wouldn't be able to move to console successfully. What I said was that RTS games play better on PC.

[Stark]

Hilarious. After all your chestbeating and strawmanning, you're just going to concede? Maybe there's hope for you yet.

When you say 'RTS games play better on PC', maybe you should actually think about the OP; ie, that you play RTS designed for PC and they don't work on consoles. As the examples of Endwar and Darwinia suggest, this is simply a design issue.

How is SupCom a 'grand strategy' game anyway? It's an RTS. If you're talking about TW, they'd work fine. Defining certain designs as crap on console is irrelevant; a jogging simulator would suck on PC, too. Who cares? How is that relevant to the OP beyond your hilarious paranoia?

My favourite part is that you're so stupid you'll dispute the factual accuracy of a claim based on a game you have no idea about and can't be bothered to research. It makes me laugh openly on into the night that you even hit the critical issue - 'don't play like a PC RTS game does' - and are yet too fucking stupid to see THAT'S WHAT THE FUCKING THREAD IS ABOUT.

[adam_grif]

After all your chestbeating and strawmanning, you're just going to concede? Maybe there's hope for you yet.

Would you prefer I make it drag on for seven pages about increasingly unrelated things and have it sent to HoS?

It makes me laugh openly on into the night that you even hit the critical issue - 'don't play like a PC RTS game does' - and are yet too fucking stupid to see THAT'S WHAT THE FUCKING THREAD IS ABOUT.

Then laugh away good sir, all I was responding to in my first post was the statement I quoted in it, that MMO's were "all that PC has left", as though genres existing on consoles made them obsolete on the PC or something. Ergo my response, that the PC versions of some types of games are better.

[Stark]

So now you being retarded and making shit up is my fault? The gall.

If I pointed out the obvious joke was clearly referring to genres considered sacrosanct to PC would that make you feel better, or worse? I'd actually like to see something like Guild Wars on a console; both Sacred and DA show that it's very possible. Things being good on console MIGHT be irrelevant to them being good on PC.

[Bakustra]

So now you being retarded and making shit up is my fault? The gall.

If I pointed out the obvious joke was clearly referring to genres considered sacrosanct to PC would that make you feel better, or worse? I'd actually like to see something like Guild Wars on a console; both Sacred and DA show that it's very possible. Things being good on console MIGHT be irrelevant to them being good on PC.

You know, I don't really get the whole "RTS is automatically worse on consoles" thing. I remember the N64 version of Command and Conquer playing smoothly. Now, granted, Starcraft or other RTSes where you have to constantly juggle unit abilities probably would suffer from having fewer hotkeys, but that goes into your point about being specifically designed for console (and good design in general, but I don't really want to start that argument again). When it comes to MMOs, FFXI was/is on the PS2 and 360 alongside the PC, but I don't play MMOs, so I don't know how well the controls work.

[adam_grif]

So now you being retarded and making shit up is my fault? The gall.

Yeah that's totally what I just said. Great job.

The OP goes on for a while about how it all works great, then concludes by saying that all the PC has left is MMO's. And now you're calling me stupid for responding to that statement.

There's no point continuing this discussion anyway. Everybody can see what went on, there's no need to comment further. I'm going to go play some Diablo 2 now that the thread has reminded me

[Vendetta]

There's no point continuing this discussion anyway. Everybody can see what went on, there's no need to comment further. I'm going to go play some Diablo 2 now that the thread has reminded me

By about the fiftieth click you'll be begging for gamepad support.

[Tolya]

[snip]So, that leaves PCs with... MMOs.

Geez Stark, I thought at least you won't subscribe to this idiotic "LOL pc gamez deeed" rhetoric which reminds me of the early days of warring tribes of Amiga and PC, which made people wank over those two platforms so much that their hands still look like Jules Winnfields head.

Anyways, effectiveness of the console control scheme is evident to anyone who hasn't suffered a brain hemorrhage in the last ten days. I acknowledge that and Im a pc gamer who has never owned a console myself - and for now does not plan to because I can think of a better way of spending my money.

Adam, you are wrong mate. Supreme Commander could work just as well on a console pad as it does on a K&M, its just a design issue. Same goes for any other RTS and FPS game once you can actually believe that the mouse pointer is not the only method of having stuff done on the screen.

[Covenant]

As I've said before, keyboard and mouse access is almost the lazy way out. It's a hell of a lot easier to do it that way, with a zillion hotkeys and a broken-ass interface that you're supposed to navigate via layers and layers of menus or accessed with an encyclopedic database of hotkey buttons.

A console RTS wouldn't play like a normal RTS, but I do pine for the days when I can hit the select button, a big strategic map pops up, and I can move my forces around the game map like those WWII generals did with the big map full of wooden tanks and infantry markers and the big arrows from all sides.

Keyboards and Mouse helps people leave in micro as a substitute for actual strategy, which is a bit of a shame. If they had to design a control scheme to allow for slower, more deliberate movements and orders being given to groups rather than individuals... you'd end up with quite possibly more strategic depth due to good design resulting from more limited UI hardware.

Supreme commander has a number of nearly useless, buried-in-code functions that would let you do this. Their synchronized simultaneous strike mechanics are basically pointless in the game, but to a console user they'd be dynamite. And a game like supcom, which finally lets the camera zoom out and doesn't intentionally handicap you like fucking Starcraft and Command and Conquer do (oh no, seeing more of the map makes people less microy!), would be way better on a console because I could flip zoom levels with the right and left shoulder pads, and use the D-Pad to move through quadrants. Selecting units and areas would be easy, it'd be like selecting zoom levels on a map or satellite photo. Fast and efficient.

Anyway, the entire debate is pointless. Mouse controls are designed for a single pointing device with two buttons. A controller has three pointing devices, an axis device, and ten buttons. The only reason many games have less options for console ports is because keyboards provide game makers with a solution besides making context-sensitive commands: just add more hotkeys.

[VF5SS]

It's funny you should mention console RTS since arguably the first RTS was Herzog Zwei for the Sega Genesis. That game managed to do a whole lot with just three buttons and a D-pad.

[Bakustra]

It's funny you should mention console RTS since arguably the first RTS was Herzog Zwei for the Sega Genesis. That game managed to do a whole lot with just three buttons and a D-pad.

Looking it up, it seems a real shame that Dune II, and not it, went on to direct the growth of the RTS genre.

[Stark]

Tolya, the wink you cut off your quote was there for a reason. In the manner of Mean Machines my outrageous tagline belies an important truth - that while Tropico on 360 won't sell much and many won't notice, it's an example of the kind of games PC elitists claim could never work on a console withou 'dumbing down'. It isn't even designed for console but the UI changes accomodate it easily.

The real fanboys are tards like grif who see 'strategy works on 360' and thinks 'RAR PC BETTER SMASH CONSOLES'.

[Stark]

There's no point continuing this discussion anyway. Everybody can see what went on, there's no need to comment further. I'm going to go play some Diablo 2 now that the thread has reminded me

By about the fiftieth click you'll be begging for gamepad support.

Remember how Sacred's gamepad control was actually better than the mouse control, with three times as many powers available? I hope Blizzard throw D3 at consoles, or at least include gamepad support.

[TC27]

PC gaming is dead again? F*ck why does no-one tell me?

To be honest I think my Xbox is great for getting a friend round and playing some Rainbox Six or for renting the latest big budget game like Bioshock and blitzing through it for a week but I would never any kind of strategy game on it - it may be force of habit but I need the proper interface, the ability to sit down properly and be able to tweak and mod the game.

Also at the risk of sounding like a snob any RTS that plays on a console will have too many compromises in interface and design to be of any real interest to me. (Supcom2 I am looking at you)