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Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 03:55pm
by Xisiqomelir
Financial Times
Google ditches Windows on security concerns

By David Gelles and Richard Waters in San Francisco

Published: May 31 2010 23:26 | Last updated: May 31 2010 23:26

Google is phasing out the internal use of Microsoft’s ubiquitous Windows operating system because of security concerns, according to several Google employees.

The directive to move to other operating systems began in earnest in January, after Google’s Chinese operations were hacked, and could effectively end the use of Windows at Google, which employs more than 10,000 workers internationally.

“We’re not doing any more Windows. It is a security effort,” said one Google employee.

“Many people have been moved away from [Windows] PCs, mostly towards Mac OS, following the China hacking attacks,” said another.

New hires are now given the option of using Apple’s Mac computers or

(article snipped for Copyright reasons. -Alyeska).


I thought someone would have had this up already, but I'm not complaining since I love posting good news! Also looking forward to the unpaid shill force decrying this decision by GOOG.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 03:59pm
by General Zod
I thought someone would have had this up already
Probably because there's not much to discuss. Although I did laugh at the last line of the article.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:10pm
by Xisiqomelir
General Zod wrote:
I thought someone would have had this up already
Probably because there's not much to discuss.
I disagree Zod. If a multi-billion dollar corporation with tens of thousands of employees can do entirely without Redmond's excreted "product" at the cost of paying $0.00 in software licenses, I should hope that even the dullest-witted of CIOs could watch and learn something.
Although I did laugh at the last line of the article.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.
Deliberate on my part, hehe.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:15pm
by General Zod
Xisiqomelir wrote: I disagree Zod. If a multi-billion dollar corporation with tens of thousands of employees can do entirely without Redmond's excreted "product" at the cost of paying $0.00 in software licenses, I should hope that even the dullest-witted of CIOs could watch and learn something.
You misunderstand. I meant there's not much to discuss board-wise. I mean, so Google switched operating systems. Good for them? And they're still using OSX, so they're still paying for licenses; it's pretty clear that cost isn't really a motivator here.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:17pm
by Nephtys
Xisiqomelir wrote:I disagree Zod. If a multi-billion dollar corporation with tens of thousands of employees can do entirely without Redmond's excreted "product" at the cost of paying $0.00 in software licenses, I should hope that even the dullest-witted of CIOs could watch and learn something.
So everyone should switch to OSX! Then everyone will begin to mess with Mac OS security problems. Yes, that is such a great solution!

What breaking news. One company changes OS. Stop the presses.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:26pm
by phongn
Google's previous IT infrastructure seemed to be fairly decentralized - to the point where client machines were not forcibly being updated to the latest patch level (even one validated by central IT and pushed via GPO/SUS). Are they centralizing, and what tools will they be using? That's a bit more interesting than "lol Google abandons Micro$oft"
Xisiqomelir wrote:I thought someone would have had this up already, but I'm not complaining since I love posting good news! Also looking forward to the unpaid shill force decrying this decision by GOOG.
Ad-hominem much? Anyone dissenting is an "unpaid shill" implicitly for Microsoft?
Xisiqomelir wrote:I disagree Zod. If a multi-billion dollar corporation with tens of thousands of employees can do entirely without Redmond's excreted "product" at the cost of paying $0.00 in software licenses, I should hope that even the dullest-witted of CIOs could watch and learn something.
A high technology corporation with a long history of using Linux on the server and elsewhere might be able to transition? That's very different than a small or medium business. The cost is not "zero", either.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:31pm
by Dave
Xisiqomelir wrote: I disagree Zod. If a multi-billion dollar corporation with tens of thousands of employees can do entirely without Redmond's excreted "product" at the cost of paying $0.00 in software licenses, I should hope that even the dullest-witted of CIOs could watch and learn something.
I will point out that Google is largely a software development company, they have extensive experience with Linux, and I'm sure that if they find any applications on Windows that they "need", they can just write their own replacement.

Not all companies have Google's level of software development talent/experience, the need for the kind of data/network security Google is demanding (because that's what this is really about), and the obscene profits and market advantage Google is boasting to allow them to undertake such a costly project as this OS switchover. (e.g. A company with thin profit margins in a highly competitive field may not have enough headroom to bear the monetary and non-monetary costs to undertake such a switchover.

While I'm all for saving money and improving security, there are significant costs involved, and not every company (or individual) has the expertise to just jump ship.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 04:32pm
by Mr Bean
It will come to nothing, it's Google not Xavir and Xavir who depend on a single vendor to provide them with a single program that lets them track their inventory and track shipments all of which only runs on Windows 2000 machines, moving is not an option without forking over millions of dollars.

Trust me when I say with ten years of experience in this area(Providing support to end users or companies). Windows is what business use because they are so locked into it because of short sighted decisions in the 90s when business started getting serious into computers above dumb terminals that it will be decades to get themselves out.

Every single company under the sun from Abercrombie and Fitch to the US Goverment and Used Car Dealers uses their own custom software to do databases, or product tracking or who knows what... most of which are built atop Windows Projects. The cost of retraining people is crazy at larger firms. Better to give them Windows PC's which they likely have at home. Heck when I was up shit creek two years ago, I bounced from call Center to Call center doing Tier 1 custom support for half a dozen companies and every single one of them used their own custom software to track calls, proficiencies and customer response.

Even in the medical field of which I worked I know of six different software packages designed to let Doctors do things like order bloodwork for patents or change treatment regiments built on everything from Windows 98 to Windows XP. Most of them still on XP because it's test, eight years later and they still have no plans to upgrade to Windows 7 or Vista because those same applications are still a year from being ready for Windows 7.

You fucking deluding yourself if you think that the vast majority of companies switch operating systems when they want rather than when they are forced to. And Google is a special case as they are... you know a direct competitor to Microsoft in half a dozen fields? It makes perfect sense to switch to Apples minus the fact they are competing with Apple as well. However there's a serious flaw in this. According to Google itself, the last three big hacks on Google were targeted. Not accidental and they even claim state sponsored. Sure your going to cut down on day to day malware attacks switching to Apple OS's. But they themselves claim the last few hacking attempts were the Chinese government attempting to take Google's confidential privacy records for useful information like know dissidents communications.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 07:34pm
by Alyeska
Xisiqomelir wrote:Deliberate on my part, hehe.
That is against forum policy. If the media outlet spells out you are not to repost their news, don't do it. It puts SD.net in legal jeopardy.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-01 10:59pm
by Xisiqomelir
Alyeska wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:Deliberate on my part, hehe.
That is against forum policy. If the media outlet spells out you are not to repost their news, don't do it. It puts SD.net in legal jeopardy.
Sorry about that. Won't happen again.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 03:54am
by atg
Mr Bean wrote:Trust me when I say with ten years of experience in this area(Providing support to end users or companies). Windows is what business use because they are so locked into it because of short sighted decisions in the 90s when business started getting serious into computers above dumb terminals that it will be decades to get themselves out.
Coming from a tech support role myself I would also add that so many users are just so bloody stupid that they can't manage something like the transition from Windows XP to Vista/7 because the start button is different.

Expecting the 'average user' to just be able to work with Linux or OSX when its something the vast majority have never seen is just a Linux/Apple fanboi fantasy. Before the inevitable reply: Yes there are exceptions to the rule.

The transition should work for Google as 1) Google's a technology company and it's 'average user' would have the higher skill levels to match, 2) they have their own in-house Linux distro which is no doubt tailored to what they need, 3) They'd easily have the money/resources for retraining as necessary.

Oops guess I must be one of Xisiqomelir's "unpaid shill force" :roll:

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 10:38am
by phongn
atg wrote:Coming from a tech support role myself I would also add that so many users are just so bloody stupid that they can't manage something like the transition from Windows XP to Vista/7 because the start button is different.
What I've found is that users don't actually learn how to use a computer or want to learn how to use a computer. They want to memorize some rote steps to perform tasks. Sophisticated users inherently understand this flowchart and will experiment; the vast majority of users, even intelligent and smart ones, will not.

Further, consider how most computer training is done, particularly for unsophisticated users. They are not taught to experiment, explore or actually learn. They are taught that icon X three spots from the left saves the file, menu item Y under heading Z lets you spellcheck and so forth and so on. In a slightly better course, they are taught that Internet Explorer lets you access the Internet - but not that you could use something else. Minimum effort, time and money to get users to accomplish a task.

So, when the start menu changes, users get confused because it looks different (even if Vista/W7's is more usable). When Microsoft introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, there was a near-rebellion because users had ingrained into them how to perform certain tasks with certain rote steps - and the Ribbon changed all that. It further is a design that attempts to force users to explore around to expose functionality (and in doing so teach them other things) - but since it is different from the memorized steps users often give up.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 11:29am
by General Zod
phongn wrote: Further, consider how most computer training is done, particularly for unsophisticated users. They are not taught to experiment, explore or actually learn. They are taught that icon X three spots from the left saves the file, menu item Y under heading Z lets you spellcheck and so forth and so on. In a slightly better course, they are taught that Internet Explorer lets you access the Internet - but not that you could use something else. Minimum effort, time and money to get users to accomplish a task.
The sad thing is it would take minimal effort to vastly improve their understanding of how systems work. When I first learned how to use a PC DOS was king, and pretty much nothing was user friendly so you had to learn its basic underlying structure and commands in order to use it. I suspect a few days spent on the command line would do a lot of people a world of good.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 11:38am
by Oskuro
The sad part is when that mentality permeates the minds of the HR department, who then test candidates expecting perfect knowledge of whatever technologies are needed, and do not understand the concept of using online references to investigate unknowns.

No, I don't fucking remember all the details and intricacies of a programming language I haven't been using actively in the past two years, but give me internet access and it won't be a problem. :roll:

</tangent>

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 11:40am
by phongn
General Zod wrote:The sad thing is it would take minimal effort to vastly improve their understanding of how systems work. When I first learned how to use a PC DOS was king, and pretty much nothing was user friendly so you had to learn its basic underlying structure and commands in order to use it. I suspect a few days spent on the command line would do a lot of people a world of good.
I don't. It doesn't fix the fundamental issue of people not wanting to learn how to use a system but instead doing a minimal-effort memorization. After all, a CLI is just another user-interface abstraction for a computer. What's the abstraction difference between typing "copy c:\foo.txt d:\foo.txt" and the corresponding "click and drag icon representing foo.txt in folder C:\ to icon or window representing folder D:\"?

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-02 12:01pm
by General Zod
An interesting rebuttal to xisi's article. So much for being a magic security fix.
The Financial Times reported last night that Google was going to phase out internal use of Microsoft Windows due to security concerns. The migration away from Windows is reported to have started in January, motivated by the Chinese Aurora attacks on the company that exploited a flaw in Internet Explorer 6.

In the story, the FT said that new Google employees would be given the choice between systems using Mac OS X and Linux. Windows machines will only be available with CIO approval. This would put an end to the existing policy, whereby employees were generally free to pick the platform that they preferred. Google has refused to comment.

This seems surprisingly extreme, given that there are practical reasons for Google employees to use Windows. The company produces Windows software, such as the Chrome Web browser and Google Desktop Search. The company also has a great many Web properties, all of which need testing on Windows. As such, Windows is sure to remain a part of the Google ecosystem, at least for anyone involved in end-user facing applications. It's just too important to ignore.

In the aftermath of the Google hack, even Microsoft said that people should stop using Internet Explorer 6, as it lacks the defence-in-depth measures found in Internet Explorer 8 when used on Windows Vista and Windows 7.

But switching to the latest version of Windows, and ditching a browser that should be left behind, is a far cry from leaving Windows altogether. There are certainly reasons why Google might want to do so: Microsoft is in competition with Google, and so every user that Google can get off of Windows and Office is a net win for the advertising giant.

But to do so as a response to the Aurora hacks? That doesn't make a lot of sense. The IT industry doesn't always like to admit it, but the truth is, Windows' security is actually pretty good.

I know, I know. Windows machines are routinely hacked, there are huge botnets of machines running Windows, viruses are rampant, and so on. This is true. But I would argue that it's not actually relevant in this case. The Google attack was not your common-or-garden indiscriminate mass attack, intended to snaffle credit card numbers and banking passwords, and send millions of spam e-mails.

These attacks are common, but in general depend on exploitation of patched vulnerabilities. They're aimed at the low-hanging fruit: the (admittedly abundant) people who haven't updated their software for years. Who have no malware protection installed. Who will click on anything and, well, everything.

Windows, with its dominant market share, is certainly susceptible to such attacks. These broad-based attacks are financially motivated, with the goal being to collect as many sets of personal data or recruit as many zombies as possible. As such, it's not a surprise that attackers are aiming at the platform with the most users. They get more money that way.

For a user uninterested in keeping their system up-to-date, Mac OS X or Linux would certainly provide an advantage of sorts against this kind of attack. It might not be the most robust protection possible, but absent any drastic growth in Mac OS X or Linux market share, it's likely to be effective nonetheless.

The Google attack, however, was not this kind of attack. It was a targeted attack that was aimed specifically at certain companies. On top of this, it used a previously undisclosed (and hence unpatched) vulnerability in Internet Explorer 6. Use of undisclosed vulnerabilities is not unheard of, but it's relatively unusual. There is a black market for undiscovered flaws, but they are expensive to buy (nobody really knows for sure, but figures of $100,000 per exploit have been claimed), and for widespread scattergun attacks, there's just not much point. Unpatched systems are sufficiently abundant that it's likely to be much more cost-effective to simply use vendor security bulletins and patches as the source of flaws.

Attackers using non-public flaws gain several advantages. Most obviously, their victims will always be vulnerable (no need to hope that they've not patched their systems). Also important is the fact that typical anti-malware measures—anti-virus software, anti-rootkit software, intrusion detection systems, etc.—won't generally detect such attacks.

The decision to specifically target particular companies also makes it easier for the attackers to encourage a victim to visit a malicious webpage (or read a malicious PDF, open a malicious e-mail, etc.). It's easy to dismiss e-mails that are obviously fraudulent—e-mails telling you about the iTunes purchases you haven't made, the Fedex deliveries that you haven't ordered—but when an e-mail arrives with your name, or address, or other personal information, it's a lot harder to ignore.

It's these properties that make the Google attack unusual, and it's these properties that make switching platforms ineffective. Worse than ineffective: if this is the kind of threat that Google is concerned with, Windows 7 is one of the safer operating systems to use.

The thing about targeted attacks is that the relative obscurity that might provide some semblance of protection to normal, everyday users stops working. If a hacker wants to break into a specific organization, then that hacker will exploit the specific software that's used by that organization. That more people outside the target organization use Windows becomes irrelevant in this scenario. So the question of which OS to use changes—it's no longer "Which OS is less likely to be attacked?" but rather "Which software is less likely to be exploitable?" and "Which OS will protect me best in the event that I am attacked?"

With regard to the former, there's no especially good solution. All Web browsers have exploitable flaws, and this is a persistent and recurring problem. Internet Explorer 6 let Google down, but as the recent pwn2own competition showed, Internet Explorer 8, Firefox 3.5, and Safari 4 were all exploitable.

Google's own Chrome wasn't exploited, but whether this represents genuine immunity is not clear. The flaw used to exploit Safari was in the WebKit rendering engine—which is also used by Chrome. Chrome mitigates the impact of such flaws through its use of sandboxing, and its success in pwn2own has been widely attributed to that sandboxing. Internet Explorer 8 also uses sandboxing—however, breaking out of the sandbox wasn't necessary to win pwn2own.

Of course, in a targeted attack, the vector doesn't have to be a browser anyway. Just some application that you know the victim will use. Browsers are a good choice, because they're so widely used, but the Google attackers could have gone after Office or Adobe Reader, say, if they'd wanted to. And this is where the OS comes into play. Windows has a range of features designed to make software exploits harder to pull off even in the event of bug in a program. These features are not insurmountable, but they nonetheless serve as a hindrance to attackers.

Microsoft has also invested heavily in development methodologies that attempt to systematically reduce the number of security defects that occur, and reduce the impact of those defects that are left. Though not perfect, these methods do yield results for Redmond, with researchers saying that Windows' code auditing is better than Apple's.

The net result is that fully-patched Windows 7 machines, especially running 64-bit software, represent a tough nut to crack for attackers. Assuming Google's system administrators are competent, modern versions of Windows would provide decent—not impenetrable, but good nonetheless—protection against precisely the kind of attack that Google is apparently striving to guard against. So banning Windows for security reasons makes no sense.

Linux doesn't have the same organized development process as Microsoft—that's just the nature of a decentralized open source development effort. It does, however, have a range of complex and powerful security capabilities, if you elect to use them. The result is that by default Linux may be a bit easier to attack than Windows; conversely, it can also be made harder to attack. If Google wants to avoid another Aurora, Linux, too, could be a good choice.

Where things get a bit weird, however, is Google's alleged decision that Mac OS X is a good alternative. Though Apple likes to trumpet the security of its platform, the reality is quite different. Mac OS X is easy, even fun to exploit. Safari, too, is "easy pickings" for hackers.

Even when Mac OS X does implement exploit mitigation techniques, these implementations are often weak or flawed. Apple also lacks an equivalent to Microsoft's secure development methodologies, an omission criticized by security researchers. Apple is beginning to take security more seriously, but it still lags behind other vendors.

The result of all this is that any hacker wanting to attack a company that uses Mac OS X is going to have an easier job than if they were attacking a company that uses Windows 7. Depending on the distribution and configuration, Linux too may represent a softer target than Redmond's offerings. Mac OS X and Linux would certainly leave the company less exposed to the bulk, non-specific attacks (though keeping systems patched and filtering e-mail already handles that problem pretty effectively), but as a defense against the next Aurora-like attack, the decision is a very strange one indeed.

Re: Google abandons Windows

Posted: 2010-06-05 04:44pm
by Uraniun235
Xisiqomelir wrote: I thought someone would have had this up already, but I'm not complaining since I love posting good news! Also looking forward to the unpaid shill force decrying this decision by GOOG.
Gee, Xiqgy, if Google were a bunch of brilliant free thinkers why weren't they already all on Linux? Image