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I'm constantly tinkering with existing RPGs or making new stuff for my own. A while back I had an idea to use playing cards to determine damage. This was so I could have a system that produces average results without the need to roll multiple dice for each hit. This got me thinking, I only know one RPG that uses playing cards as an integral part of the system Deadlands. I wonder why is it that cards, of any type, are not more widely used in RPGs.

I'm also interested in what kind of system other players on this board use in place of dice be it cards, dice rollers and so on, and what are their opinions of them.

My little card experiment worked pretty well for it's intended purpose and I think I'll stick with it for a while longer.

-Gunhead

Cards aren't nearly as durable as dice, so they're a lot easier to damage if you carry them everywhere. The only other system I'm aware of offhand that used cards was the Dragonlance 5th Age system for D&D before they updated the Dragonlance setting yet again.

Everway uses cards as its only random mechanic, though it's more abstract than most systems. 7th Sea had some optional deck mechanics for sorte, if you had a tarot deck.

Use electronic aid like phone app.

Case closed.

PnP games not shipping with software aids is just a reflection of the tenacious grip they have on profitability; there probably doesn't exist a board or pnp game that wouldn't be improved by moving all the book-keeping and resolution into software.

The wear and tear thing is damning. If you 'know' which is the high card/low card that is not good. So cards are out from over the counter rpgs.

Now lots of the rpgs with lots of tables would indeed benefit from being cards instead, so as a GM doing that you can add lots of info to a crit table for instance. If so I recommend card sleeves and a supply of crap MtG cards that you can get for free from any tournament.

For other systems, Stark covered softbased (I think its an untapped revenue potential for PnP rpgs), the other common one is chit based in war games. ie instead of 2d6 you have 36 (or 72) chits in a mug which you draw from.

Cards are eminently useful in some respects: they let you store outcomes, for instance, and if you have a card, that decreases the probability of others drawing that same card.

Playing cards are a whole lot more cumbersome and space-intensive, however, and as Spoonist pointed out, they rely on having a uniform look. Also, it's a lot harder to do sums and the like with cards, meaning open-ended rolls are usually right out.

Some games would be improved by replacing card systems with die-roll lookup tables - like Arkham Horror's 5000 decks of miscellaneous stuff that could really by a single A4 page you roll on.

I'm really interested in computer assisted dice rolling and even more in the possibility to have it roll and determine damage in one go. In my experience, rolling damage and applying the results is easy when number of hits are low. Problems arise when you're dealing with modern automatic weapons that can spew large number of bullets per attacker in a really short time period.
I've been looking for some time a good balance between speed of play, lethality and overall usefulness compared to other modes of attack.

Like Stark said, software would really help both in generating and remembering the results. I already use a laptop for most of my gaming needs, including storing character sheets, notes and loads of other stuff that I need when playing or running a game.

Does anyone have experience about spreadsheet software used for generating random results and then applying it to a fixed table? I know this has been done but I don't know how well these work in this capacity.

-Gunhead

I have had some work in MS Excel when I used random numbers.
Excel has it's own random number function that works quite fine. I think it goes Rand() or something, just check with the office assistant.

The function generates a new random number every time you load a page or refresh it.
But if you want to do it right, I would suggest making your own application for the job instead. That's what I ended up doing.

Purple wrote:I have had some work in MS Excel when I used random numbers.
Excel has it's own random number function that works quite fine. I think it goes Rand() or something, just check with the office assistant.

The function generates a new random number every time you load a page or refresh it.
But if you want to do it right, I would suggest making your own application for the job instead. That's what I ended up doing.

I think I'll have to try excel or open office. The trouble with solution number two is I have no idea how to make software.

-Gunhead

If you google 'dice rolling software' you'll find heaps. There are RPG environments like OpenRPG etc that can do rolling and resolution. Your phone may have apps for that sort of thing too.

I'm in a pile of online games right now, and we all use Maptools, which is free and has very complex macroing that lets us do basically whatever we want. The little characters on the 2d map space can hold entire character sheets, and making 6 attacks is as easy as pressing a button that shows up when a little character has context. It takes work, but once you've done it you wont need to mess with it ever again. rptools.net or whatever, just google Maptools.

For our table games, we still use dice, but all of our character sheets and other misc data are on Googledocs. I've played 5 hour DnD sessions with four dice and my ipod touch. Others use laptops.

I don't understand why you'd use cards. A single set of dice takes up less space than a deck of cards and you don't have to do any thinking to use them.

Joviwan wrote:I don't understand why you'd use cards. A single set of dice takes up less space than a deck of cards and you don't have to do any thinking to use them.

Depends. There are still things that cards to that dice don't easily accomplish. Also, there are games to which cards add flavour. Amber diceless, for instance, is diceless because magical playing cards (the Trumps) are part and parcel of the game world, and it makes sense to use them. Castle Falkenstein, more amusingly, has its rule book written in-universe style, and therefore ("Dice!? Speak no more of it, I beg you!") since only ruffians and inveterate cads would play games of chance with dice, naturally, the only gentlemanly alternative is to use cards.

The existence of cards in those games is predicated by the fluff and whatever desire players have for Role Playing. They're RP aides. The OP is clearly looking for efficiency. It's hard to be more efficient than asking someone to shake their wrist and do some basic arithmetic.

Joviwan wrote:I don't understand why you'd use cards. A single set of dice takes up less space than a deck of cards and you don't have to do any thinking to use them.

Lets take the simple example of a crit/luck/loot table, now not only do you need your dice you also need to have the table available. If it is in a book that means you need to have the book open to the table. If there are several such tables to be used you have to switch back and forth in the book. To top it of some of those crit/luck/loot stuff refer to other rules which also are in a/the book.
By replacing the dice with cards you not only increase the speed of resolution, you can add info straight to the card and to top it off you can also add flavor like a picture or description.
Also you can hand out the card to the affected player which can keep it until properly written down or resolved. So less distractions.
Then add the feeling of looting and your GM lets you draw a card from the deck, its much much more salivating than simply rolling the dice.

If you want I can go on like this.

In other words, the choice between a well done worksheet and using cards is one of personal preference?
Since cards provide flavor vs worksheets that provide efficiency.

Spoonist wrote:

Joviwan wrote:I don't understand why you'd use cards. A single set of dice takes up less space than a deck of cards and you don't have to do any thinking to use them.

Lets take the simple example of a crit/luck/loot table, now not only do you need your dice you also need to have the table available. If it is in a book that means you need to have the book open to the table. If there are several such tables to be used you have to switch back and forth in the book. To top it of some of those crit/luck/loot stuff refer to other rules which also are in a/the book.
By replacing the dice with cards you not only increase the speed of resolution, you can add info straight to the card and to top it off you can also add flavor like a picture or description.
Also you can hand out the card to the affected player which can keep it until properly written down or resolved. So less distractions.
Then add the feeling of looting and your GM lets you draw a card from the deck, its much much more salivating than simply rolling the dice.

If you want I can go on like this.

Nothing you've said has made a compelling argument. Arkham Horror is entirely driven by a deck based loot system, and it's one of the most singularly obnoxious games to set up and play i've physically encountered. Stark is 100% correct in saying that it would be improved with a look-up table. Our gaming group loves Arkam horror yet never plays it because it takes less work to run basically any role playing game by the seat of your pants.

Nothing in your post helps anyone but the DM, and the DM wouldn't need the help if he bothered to do 20 minutes of prep before he runs his game or bothered to invest in a pre-fab DM screen. "Oh no, I have to flip back and forth a few pages in this book that is already at the table and already being used so there isn't any actual loss of space or functionality by it's continued presence."

EDIT: I'm strictly discussing efficiency. There's nothing to be said about personal preference that matters in this discussion.

Joviwan wrote:Nothing you've said has made a compelling argument.

Do you really want to slug it out or should we just agree to disagree? (Your argument so far was that dice took less space).

Joviwan wrote:Arkham Horror is entirely driven by a deck based loot system, and it's one of the most singularly obnoxious games to set up and play i've physically encountered.

This is a board game, mind you. The OP was about roleplaying games. Don't get me started on Arkham Horror, its such a lovely game idea/design and there are countless ways that it could be improved.
Also if that is the most obnoxious board game setup I'd hope thats hyperbole or that you are very young/inexperienced. WiFwould be the obvious example.

Spoonist wrote:Do you really want to slug it out or should we just agree to disagree? (Your argument so far was that dice took less space).

That still hasn't been disputed. You're free to disagree with it, I'm not compelling you to continue making words. I'm contributing to a discussion and reflecting on your points.

EDIT: Oh, wait, you were talking about how cards take up less space than dice AND rulebooks. I already addressed that.

This is a board game, mind you. The OP was about roleplaying games.

I was using it as an example. It's not perfect, no.

Also if that is the most obnoxious board game setup I'd hope thats hyperbole or that you are very young/inexperienced. WiFwould be the obvious example.

That I've physically encountered. If you want to split hairs and have a pissing match, I'll just trot out The Campaign For North Africa and flail my limbs about.

Well, just to clear it up, efficiency is just a part of whole. My playing and game mastering trends favor simulationist approach. I also place great emphasis on working RPG combat. This is a major reason for this thread, as combat has a lot of random elements that require the attention of the GM, and here some automation could really help.
In addition to this, this thread is not about what is the "best" system because no one system can be said to do it all.
The title may refer to RPGs but by all means, any interesting methods of getting random results are very much on topic. My interest in the matter is mainly about RPGs, but I'm also an avid board gamer.

-Gunhead

Purple wrote:In other words, the choice between a well done worksheet and using cards is one of personal preference?
Since cards provide flavor vs worksheets that provide efficiency.

When in doubt go with software. Whatever you can do with cards you can do better with software, even to the point of printing a card-substitute.

Joviwan wrote:I'm contributing to a discussion and reflecting on your points.

Agreed on the contribution, but its hard for me to continue the dialog when you dismissed all on the basis of being compelling to you or not, instead of explaining why you think so or which types of RPGs you play.

Joviwan wrote:

Spoonist wrote:Also if that is the most obnoxious board game setup I'd hope thats hyperbole or that you are very young/inexperienced.

That I've physically encountered. If you want to split hairs and have a pissing match, I'll just trot out The Campaign For North Africa and flail my limbs about.

Hyperbole it is then.

Gunhead wrote:Well, just to clear it up, efficiency is just a part of whole. My playing and game mastering trends favor simulationist approach. I also place great emphasis on working RPG combat. This is a major reason for this thread, as combat has a lot of random elements that require the attention of the GM, and here some automation could really help.
In addition to this, this thread is not about what is the "best" system because no one system can be said to do it all.
The title may refer to RPGs but by all means, any interesting methods of getting random results are very much on topic. My interest in the matter is mainly about RPGs, but I'm also an avid board gamer.

-Gunhead

Care to give some examples of the games that you normally play where you want a more efficient way of handling the random factors?
Get down to examples instead of plain theory.

Oi, Spoonist - not that I want to interrupt this riveting discussion, but did my PM response on the subject reach you?

Eleas wrote:Oi, Spoonist - not that I want to interrupt this riveting discussion, but did my PM response on the subject reach you?

Oups. Sorry, missed that...

This was touched upon previously. Modern day RPGs, by modern meaning any and all time periods / settings where hand held automatic weapons are available to PCs and / or NPCs.
I've been tackling this issue for a while now, and while I've reached some acceptable compromises I'm still looking to improve on this. Most RPGs that otherwise have decent or even good combat have autofire that is too powerful or absolutely useless. Problems are, the sheer amount of bullets fired, recoil, the effect on target and keeping track of all this while not spending 10 minutes going through tables and rolling oodles of dice.

-Gunhead

Gunhead wrote:This was touched upon previously. Modern day RPGs, by modern meaning any and all time periods / settings where hand held automatic weapons are available to PCs and / or NPCs.
I've been tackling this issue for a while now, and while I've reached some acceptable compromises I'm still looking to improve on this. Most RPGs that otherwise have decent or even good combat have autofire that is too powerful or absolutely useless. Problems are, the sheer amount of bullets fired, recoil, the effect on target and keeping track of all this while not spending 10 minutes going through tables and rolling oodles of dice.

-Gunhead

I would look at how dark heresy/rouge trader does it. Auto, just a different action that rewards you for rolling better than the minimum to succeed, while taking up significant time to reload. Between that and the fact that you use exactly as many shots as your gun says you do, no matter how many hit is far superior to most systems in terms of easy of use. Rules light.