StarDestroyer.Net BBS

...well, your video drivers at least. If you have an ATI card.

But damnit, this is a step is the right direction.

Does it ask you before it starts downloading a 600 meg file, or do you have to wait three hours for the updates to end every time you fire up the client?

It asked me. I told it no, due to the vague suspicion that Steam knew what it was doing. Possibly I should have let it, but I have an inherent distrust of things I don't install myself.

Just the ATI drivers is about 15-20mb, the management suite is another 40-60mb however.

Just like Lagmonster I harbor a lot of distrust with anything I don't personally locate, check, double check and install by hand.

Purple wrote:Just like Lagmonster I harbor a lot of distrust with anything I don't personally locate, check, double check and install by hand.

Ok, cool, but does the end user (even the power user) really have the competence to pick which driver or video card manager to install? I mean seriously, do you (or most people) do anything other than go "Oh, shiny!" and click the update button? Why not have the installer do it itself?

Does it really do you much benefit for you to be the one that double-clicks the installer every time there's an update, rather than allowing Steam to do it for you automagically?

I mean, I kind of understand, I do kind of the same thing when it comes to updates for, say, Linux. Ubuntu tells me I have updates, so I update, and then if I'm bored I'll read the changelogs to see what shiny new features I just got or bugs that were fixed. Same with Windows -- Microsoft tells me I have a security update, so I figure Microsoft probably knows what they're doing and that I should probably update.

But video card drivers? I don't know, so I just installed the Nvidia driver that Nvidia's automagic tool told me would go fasta'.

Steam has a userbase of, what, 25 million users? (wikipedia) They collect statistics on all of them, they probably do weekly hardware polls, and they'll know really quick if they fuck up -- and they'll probably fix it quick too.

Um... I don't know about you, but when I want a new video card driver, I go to the manufacturer's website, go to their driver download section, find my card, download the drivers only, and install. What's all this about "automatic updates"? And honestly, I never upgrade my video card drivers unless I have a game that starts freaking out because the drivers are too old.

Dave wrote:Ok, cool, but does the end user (even the power user) really have the competence to pick which driver or video card manager to install? I mean seriously, do you (or most people) do anything other than go "Oh, shiny!" and click the update button? Why not have the installer do it itself?

I don't know about you but I have been in programing and computer circles since high school and when I graduate I will be a software engineer. So I actually know what each of those shiny buttons means.

Does it really do you much benefit for you to be the one that double-clicks the installer every time there's an update, rather than allowing Steam to do it for you automagically?

Has it occurred to you that I want to actually chose what updates to get rather than going for what ever some software company thinks I should get?

I mean, I kind of understand, I do kind of the same thing when it comes to updates for, say, Linux. Ubuntu tells me I have updates, so I update, and then if I'm bored I'll read the changelogs to see what shiny new features I just got or bugs that were fixed. Same with Windows -- Microsoft tells me I have a security update, so I figure Microsoft probably knows what they're doing and that I should probably update.

I newer, ever use the automatic update function. Instead, I read through the entire thing and select the things I need.

But video card drivers? I don't know, so I just installed the Nvidia driver that Nvidia's automagic tool told me would go fasta'.

That is the entire point. Steam is good for the low end user that does not know his keyboard from his CPU and thinks that shiny light on his router means his monitor is running (no offense).

For a high end user, the last thing I want is automation in updates.
This goes even for games. For example, I still play the DOW original with NO patches because I dislike the balancing features of the later patches. If I had bought it off steam I would have no choice but to use the updated and less appealing version.

Steam has a userbase of, what, 25 million users? (wikipedia) They collect statistics on all of them, they probably do weekly hardware polls,

And those mass pools don't do much good. honestly, if you ask a bunch of random people what they think is best and use that as a decision than you are not even making an educated guess.

And considering that most people I know don't know the basics beyond "double click to open file" I don't trust the average user to contribute to a meaningful decision.

and they'll know really quick if they fuck up -- and they'll probably fix it quick too.

So after making me waste time on a download I don't want that fucks me up, their solution is to make me download another one to unfuck me.

Yea, nice business plan.

Purple wrote: For a high end user, the last thing I want is automation in updates.
This goes even for games.

I want automation of system and application security updates. In fact it's a very necessary feature of any modern operating system. Feature and functionality updates, on the other hand, should always be optional.

Hawkwings wrote:Um... I don't know about you, but when I want a new video card driver, I go to the manufacturer's website, go to their driver download section, find my card, download the drivers only, and install. What's all this about "automatic updates"? And honestly, I never upgrade my video card drivers unless I have a game that starts freaking out because the drivers are too old.

Point. I was considering that while writing, but I kind of ignored that thought.

Purple wrote:

Dave wrote:Ok, cool, but does the end user (even the power user) really have the competence to pick which driver or video card manager to install? I mean seriously, do you (or most people) do anything other than go "Oh, shiny!" and click the update button? Why not have the installer do it itself?

I don't know about you but I have been in programing and computer circles since high school and when I graduate I will be a software engineer. So I actually know what each of those shiny buttons means.

I'm studying information science and I've done more programing than the average college grad. But I'm not here to get in a pissing match. The point is: yeah, I know what most of the stuff says, I just stopped caring whether or not it upgraded.

Does it really do you much benefit for you to be the one that double-clicks the installer every time there's an update, rather than allowing Steam to do it for you automagically?

Has it occurred to you that I want to actually chose what updates to get rather than going for what ever some software company thinks I should get?

Ok, sure, if you want it that way, but I contend that you are in the minority in that desire.

I mean, I kind of understand, I do kind of the same thing when it comes to updates for, say, Linux. Ubuntu tells me I have updates, so I update, and then if I'm bored I'll read the changelogs to see what shiny new features I just got or bugs that were fixed. Same with Windows -- Microsoft tells me I have a security update, so I figure Microsoft probably knows what they're doing and that I should probably update.

I newer, ever use the automatic update function. Instead, I read through the entire thing and select the things I need.

Again, sure, but I don't think many people disable the automatic update and care which updates they want. I'm into computers, and I stopped caring what updates I want.

But video card drivers? I don't know, so I just installed the Nvidia driver that Nvidia's automagic tool told me would go fasta'.

That is the entire point. Steam is good for the low end user that does not know his keyboard from his CPU and thinks that shiny light on his router means his monitor is running (no offense).

It also works just fine for the power-user who still stopped giving a shit about tinkering with things to get them to run.

For a high end user, the last thing I want is automation in updates.

I consider myself a high-end user, and I am realizing that I really do like automation in my updates.

This goes even for games. For example, I still play the DOW original with NO patches because I dislike the balancing features of the later patches. If I had bought it off steam I would have no choice but to use the updated and less appealing version.

Ok, I get it, you don't want automatic updates. But I think most users would be fine with it, and I am finding that I am fine with it, and I threw out the assertion that most people would be fine with automatic updates. You disagree with it because you personally dislike automatic updates. Fine, but I still think most people would like or be apathetic to (and yes, that's probably shifting my goalposts) automatic updates, either because they want the latest stuff, or they just don't care.

Steam has a userbase of, what, 25 million users? (wikipedia) They collect statistics on all of them, they probably do weekly hardware polls,

And those mass pools don't do much good. honestly, if you ask a bunch of random people what they think is best and use that as a decision than you are not even making an educated guess.



And considering that most people I know don't know the basics beyond "double click to open file" I don't trust the average user to contribute to a meaningful decision.

Huh? It's an automatic hardware poll -- little or no user input.

and they'll know really quick if they fuck up -- and they'll probably fix it quick too.

So after making me waste time on a download I don't want that fucks me up, their solution is to make me download another one to unfuck me.

Yea, nice business plan.

As opposed to you taking a stab at the correct video driver, getting it wrong and having to download another one to fix things? I suspect that Steam would do as well or better than you at getting the video driver right.

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Purple, this is simply a difference of opinion between geeks. I guess my question is, is it worth taking the time to dig through and manually select all the updates you think you want, versus just trusting someone else or a script to do it for you? Some say yes, some (like myself) say no.

Yes, it actually is worth that time for any competent computer user. The automatic update is really nice for people who have some kind of stock machines from whatever appliance store, but if I have custom built rig that is tuned up to my specifications, there is no fucking way I'm going to have any automatic updates to anything except my AV virus definitions on.

Instead, those updates are going to be on the setting that lets me know they're there and then asks me what I want to install. If an automagic update fucks something up, it will take a lot more of my time to unfuck it than it does to manually check what I want to or need to update.

Edi has said it much better than I ever could.

The point is that while it might be beneficial for people that don't care it is horrible for those that do care.


And knowing steams track record and the way the industry is heading I am mortally terrified that one morning I will wake up in a world where everything is sold over that infernal thing. In a world where those of us that do care what we do with our rigs will be left with no way of doing so save for forgoing any new software purchases.

Also, to add, I usually set updates to manual on most of my programs because I do not want to bend my computer use to its own schedule, such as me being forced to restart my computer whenever Windows Update decides it is a good time to update core system files. The same principle would also apply to Steam and its driver updates, especially video card drivers.

As long as Valve sets this automation as an option, I don't particularly care about it. I will care about it, though, if I am either working on something important or playing a random game, and I am all of a sudden annoyed to restart my computer because Steam chose to update my video drivers without my permission.

So I presume the general opinion is: "Dave hasn't been burned yet, but when he does he'll come around to manual updates, and then only after checking the changelogs?"

Dave wrote:So I presume the general opinion is: "Dave hasn't been burned yet, but when he does he'll come around to manual updates, and then only after checking the changelogs?"

I wouldn't go quite that far. I generally hit the routine Windows updates as a matter of course, though I look through them to see what they do. Anything major, like video driver updates, service packs etc get much deeper scrutiny.

What I do not want is something going in and updating anything without notifying me beforehand unless it's those AV definitions. I do tech support for a living and I need to unfuck enough customer machines that every day that I'd rather be careful than regret being too complacent. Your mileage may vary.

I'd also like to add that updates are not always necessarily a good thing. Thunderbird for example has lost some seriously useful and even necessary functionality in version 3.1 that makes doing any kind of nonstandard email migration a real fucking pain in the arse. Even the kind that it has been perfectly capable of doing in the past.

Whoever made the decision that users should not be able to use the import tools to import emails from a file or folder (which used to be possible) needs to be taken out and shot in the goddamn kneecaps and then in his nuts. That's how fucking aggravating it is.

I did it because a) it had been a while since I did such an update and b) why the hell not?

It was a 115mb download (so obviously the full driver/software package) but it came down in no time at all and installed correctly without even requiring a reboot (how the fuck they did this, I don't know). All in about the time it would usually take to stumble through a sites shitty driver finding interface to get to a download mirror.

It seems that they've actually put a lot of effort into making this a fast and streamlined process.

Holy shit, ando. You're the problem - someone who updates drivers so infrequently they missed the whole 'doesn't need a restart' thing. So... years?

The idea that updating video drivers is hard is pure nonsense; the sites involved have a giant DRIVERS HERE NOOB button. Its useful for people who treat their computers as applicances (ie, people who use steam) and it saves everyone money on useless QA from retards, even if 'old video driver' hasn't been a problem for anything in ages.

Really? Even when I last updated at the move to Windows 7 (3 months ago) it still wanted a restart.

And it's not that it's hard Stark, it's that they've just made it easier. After all, prior to this I'd spent an hour trying to get a GFWL game, purchased via Impulse to patch. In the end you had to manually target the patch via command line in order for it to even run and then copy and paste the files from teh dump folder it created into the actual game directory. Did I mention that this was via GFWL AND IMPULSE?

Streamlining makes me happy. I still have the option to do whatever I want with my drivers, but if Steam gives me a pop up going: "BTW there's a new driver release for your card, do you want me to update it now for you?" then are you really telling me that clicking "yes" makes me a bad person?

PS - I know what your answer will be so you don't have to say it.

PPS - It's "don't be a lazy fattynerd" isn't it?

Maybe it's just an 'ATi plays catch-up' thing, then. Hopefully their drivers have improved a little in the last few years; but not upgrading nvidia drivers for three months isn't going to cause any problems. Like I said, it's just a QA thing; I can't think of the last game that was actually for serious hit with a specific driver version issue. Dx version (and regular patching) seems like a much more widespread issue, but games simply auto-patch that on install.

If you're playing games so shit they come with command-line patches, that really isn't anyone's fault but your own. Shit, even Conquest from 1998 didn't have command-line patches.

I know, silly me for thinking that between Microsoft and Impulse they might have actually had a patch solution that wasn't totally fucking broken. And of course, because it (Blacklight: Tango Down - I know, I know, but it was like 3 bucks) is a GFWL game, attempting to play it unpatched locks you out of the whole damn game. What a fucking shambles.

That'll teach you for not just playing it on console, I guess. Who knew buying shit for $3 could be bad??? I didn't even know they wasted their time making a PC version.