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A remake? Why haven't I heard of this?

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/GamesC ... ?tid=14059

I'll give it a go, if they don't fuck it up by trying to change too much shit.

First time I've heard of it too. Looks sort of interesting and I'll have to keep an eye this. Hopefully they've done some updating on the original system. It was good for it's time but there's a ton that could be done to improve it. If this is just a graphics upgrade then hopefully they'll give a good set of modding tools so people can tinker with it.

-Gunhead

If they implemented the stuff from the unofficial 1.13 patch, this would be pretty much the best thing ever. I can't wait.

Even if 1.13 isn't implemented, from what I can see they've mostly changed graphics and the interface.

Shouldn't be too hard to re-implement.

Gunhead wrote:First time I've heard of it too. Looks sort of interesting and I'll have to keep an eye this. Hopefully they've done some updating on the original system. It was good for it's time but there's a ton that could be done to improve it. If this is just a graphics upgrade then hopefully they'll give a good set of modding tools so people can tinker with it.

-Gunhead

Meh, I still think JA2 is basically unparalleled as far as squad based tactical games go. I'd be happy enough if they just prettyify the thing.

Lord Woodlouse wrote:

Gunhead wrote:First time I've heard of it too. Looks sort of interesting and I'll have to keep an eye this. Hopefully they've done some updating on the original system. It was good for it's time but there's a ton that could be done to improve it. If this is just a graphics upgrade then hopefully they'll give a good set of modding tools so people can tinker with it.

-Gunhead

Meh, I still think JA2 is basically unparalleled as far as squad based tactical games go. I'd be happy enough if they just prettyify the thing.

That might be, but I don't see the point of just making it pretty if the actual game is no improved. I didn't play jagged 2 for graphics anyway. Hell they can make it uglier for all I care if I get improved mechanics in trade.

-Gunhead

Stock JA2 is actually pretty shit mechanically, but 1.13 is a great improvement (if only you could remove the 40000 useless guns). The art is hardly its biggest problem, but I guess some people would like it.

It makes me laugh to imagine people are still playing it in low-res with stock inventory.

I stopped playing the game years ago, so I didn't even know there was an unofficial patch.

I remember being such a gamey bastard with that game. You know, how the outcomes of your shots are predetermined so long as you do the same thing every time if you load the game on a miss, therefore if you just load the game and move one squad member in a slighty different square, your miss might become a hit?

The AI was so broken; they'd never snipe, night didn't work properly, they'd never use roofs, etc. 1.13 fixes the shit out of it, the only downside is they introduced 50000 gun-nut guns with no real distinction between them.

You must have been really young if you needed to cheese like that though; the game was pretty easy. In 1.13 you can turn the Drassen counterattack back on, and that shit is epic. Three guys with nines against forty militia?

Not to mention 1.13 also contains 10000 sights/stocks/grips/thingies for guns with some guns able to use some of them. It was nightmarish to sort these and figure out what gun could mount WANK model lasersightscope with hydrorailgrips. Yeah there's a readme but I'd like to have the this information delivered to me in game. I like my gun porn but having gazillion different accessories is bit pushing it, more so when the benefit gained from these doohickeys is not easily quantified and as they're put in there they must have an impact on game mechanics.

-Gunhead

Stark wrote:The AI was so broken; they'd never snipe, night didn't work properly, they'd never use roofs, etc. 1.13 fixes the shit out of it, the only downside is they introduced 50000 gun-nut guns with no real distinction between them.

I remember being shot at from roofs, but I think the baddies started out there to begin with.

You must have been really young if you needed to cheese like that though; the game was pretty easy. In 1.13 you can turn the Drassen counterattack back on, and that shit is epic. Three guys with nines against forty militia?

No, I was just a psychotic perfectionist - I think JA2 came out in 1998, so I was 16 turning 17, most likely. I hated getting shot and I hated missing.

Does the 1.13 patch fix the inherent absurdity of making pistols totally uselss by making them cost waaaaaaay more points to use than a rifle?

If you have more than 4 guns with exactly the same stats and different pictures, you've gone too far. Things like the inventory system is a good example of detail done properly.

Vympel wrote:

Stark wrote:The AI was so broken; they'd never snipe, night didn't work properly, they'd never use roofs, etc. 1.13 fixes the shit out of it, the only downside is they introduced 50000 gun-nut guns with no real distinction between them.

I remember being shot at from roofs, but I think the baddies started out there to begin with.

You must have been really young if you needed to cheese like that though; the game was pretty easy. In 1.13 you can turn the Drassen counterattack back on, and that shit is epic. Three guys with nines against forty militia?

No, I was just a psychotic perfectionist - I think JA2 came out in 1998, so I was 16 turning 17, most likely. I hated getting shot and I hated missing.

Does the 1.13 patch fix the inherent absurdity of making pistols totally uselss by making them cost waaaaaaay more points to use than a rifle?

Yes. Pistols are fast firing and no AP cost to raise the weapon for most pistols. They even implemented some special pistol ammo that's basically AP + HP combined to justify their use in later game. Range still sucks though and they are completely outmatched by SMGs in late game, so by the time you're wielding assault weapons as standard, they're pretty useless.

-Gunhead

Gunhead wrote:Not to mention 1.13 also contains 10000 sights/stocks/grips/thingies for guns with some guns able to use some of them. It was nightmarish to sort these and figure out what gun could mount WANK model lasersightscope with hydrorailgrips. Yeah there's a readme but I'd like to have the this information delivered to me in game. I like my gun porn but having gazillion different accessories is bit pushing it, more so when the benefit gained from these doohickeys is not easily quantified and as they're put in there they must have an impact on game mechanics.

-Gunhead

I think part of the problem here was that they couldn't alter the UI for Bobby Ray's enough to show compatibilities. If you already have stuff in the sector though, you can go to the "strategic" map with grid squares, go to your sector's Inventory and mouse over weapons, accessories or ammo to see what else in the sector they're compatible with.

Not sure if they ever fixed this (I stopped playing many builds ago), but I found that down the line, suppressed high-capacity battle rifles on semiauto with a Reflex Sight and Battle Scope, 7x, firing 7.62x51 mm cold-loaded or match grade rounds, were king of the game, period. Eventually the average mook carries enough body armor to negate 5.56x45 mm unless fired in bursts, whereas with the right "operators" I could continue to get one-hit kills, often of the headshot variety, thanks to the Battle Scope, 7x increasing damage.

Basic strategy was "slow" movement with bounding overwatch, engaging enemies with long-range aimed single shots from suppressed rifles, though eventually I experimented with "going heavy" i.e. by having a mortar or grenade launchers. Unless going for a melee or throwing knife kill, I'd rarely get close enough to enemies for any to possibly slip through gasp in the squad's combined fields of vision/fire. For me, this combined with the increased accuracy justified any reduced field of vision from the 7x scope, as I didn't notice any improvement in accuracy or damage from the 4x scope (and the 4x/reflex combo) to justify the 4x.

As for pistols/machine pistols, the MP7A1 is king of them all -- only downside at all besides rarity (of the weapon and ammo) is that you can suppress one while it's in the MP Holster and carry it around like that, but once drawn you can't put it back in there, only the "long weapon" slot, in until you remove the suppressor. The Magpul PDR (I think only the -D variant with the MP5K-style vertical foregrip) was hot shit for an AR, but for balance reasons it was chambered in the same 6x35 mm caliber as the KAC PDW (also in v1.13).

Regarding "Advanced Energy Transfer" (AET) ammo -- the main downside to them besides availability was that they'd also wear down your weapons' durability bar faster than other ammo types.

*Guilty as hell on playing it game-y and rigged*

I didn't mind the gazillion guns: I just used one or two different types as standard. The improvements to interface, AI, mechanics and the inventory system were more than worth it. As for pistols being next to useless, well...that's what they are, a weapon of last resort. Original JA2 made them doubleplususeless by not taking any AP to swap guns around, so if you ran out of ammo, you could just instantly pull out another rifle or SMG

The inventory system, especially, is actually innovative and clever, which rarely happens in these mods. I wish they'd keep it in the remake.

I assume you speak of the New InVentory (NIV)? I agree, it's a way to further customize characters and often allows for more item carriage than that character previously could. One further improvement perhaps (however game-y) would be to list an item's size category in the weapon stats, instead of having to try to drag/drop it into various containers to figure it out.

Only time the bajillions-of-items thing is really a pain in the ass is at Bobby Ray's when you've got many of the items unlocked, since supposedly due parts of the UI being hardcoded, the team couldn't find a way to make something better than "keep left-clicking the Next Page button" for navigation. I think that was at least four or five pages' worth of Kalashnikov variants alone. Supposedly this was also why weapons won't support more than four attachments of any kind, including "permanent" attachments like the "rod & spring," and in some cases probably can't support things like pairing a VFG and a bipod on the same weapon, or the ISM-IR (in-game a Reflex Sight/Laser Sight as a single attachment) and any magnifying optic.

Don't think they ever made the 2x Scope worth-a-damn either, except for semiauto/machine pistols and SMGs...

Edward Yee wrote:I assume you speak of the New InVentory (NIV)? I agree, it's a way to further customize characters and often allows for more item carriage than that character previously could. One further improvement perhaps (however game-y) would be to list an item's size category in the weapon stats, instead of having to try to drag/drop it into various containers to figure it out.

It's not just about carrying more items than before, it's simply neat and logical and different than most games: Want to carry tonnes of stuff? Get a big backpack: but watch out, it's heavy and tiring and you can't climb roofs with it! Need your medic to lug around plenty of supplies? Get a utility vest, but be ready to sacrifice some ammo pouches! You can customize what your guys will be able carry according to their mission and role in the team, etc.

Add to it the fact it matters where you carry your magazines and other stuff (digging around in the backpack during combat = bad idea, as it should be), and it's easily one of the best features of the mod.

It would be great, of course, if there actually was a reason not to walk around in tactical gear some of the time, so that you'd feel the difference between a fully equipped soldier and a guy in civvies trying to blend in a crowd, but that's not a fault of the inventory system itself (I did it with a raid on Kingpin's house once, but it would be great if the game itself had rewards/penalties built in): say, if you could infiltrate enemy-held towns or something.

But it's a minor issue, really.

As I've said more than once, while there's NIV and the 100 AP system (instead of 25) -- and even the addition of MULTIPLAYER entirely by the fans -- one of the biggest "improvements" in JA2 v1.13 was removing the popular support penalty (and thus income penalty) for stalling, when your client finally gets fed up, so now you never lose income except when you lose sectors. Result? You can turtle and train, train, train everyone endlessly and all you like. By the time I was "done" even Shank and Dynamo were worth a damn.

I tend to start with an I.M.P. operator or more as my "cadre," since I can configure him to have high Ldr (ability to train other operators and artillery), Wis (ability/potential to raise your own stats), and Agi (more AP); leftover points can go into Str (carrying capacity), Dex (accuracy-related?), Mrk (shooting obviously) and finally Health. Even before getting to Drassen you pick up your first "no-recurring fee" character, so after taking Drassen Airport I can turtle and train her up all I like, and with her good Ldr and Wis she'd be the next cadre, or at least someone I can trust with training up my initial militia. I think the tipping point money-wise is is once you're able to fill up a squad with just "no-fee" members, whether I.M.P. or native ("indig") personnel -- unless you absolutely need more members, after this as with Assassin's Creed 2 you'll have reached the point of "can never realistically spend enough to exceed income," since you can just sit everyone on their ass -- hurry up and wait -- until you can afford anything you want from Bobby Ray's, or a Skyrider trip.

I never bother with leadership for the IMP character ; Ira can handle training the militia just fine at the start, and if you play with Drassen counterattack enabled, I need every good shooter I can get

Frankly, I've never been bothered by the stalling penalty in vanilla ; The pace is slow enough that you can easily do anything you could ever want to do. Watching the time slider isn't really my idea of fun, anyway.

The new 1.13 inventory system is really good, too bad otherwise managing equipment is tedious. I'd love to have the option to have stuff dropped on the battlefield transferred to place of my choosing without needing to spend ludicrous amounts of time doing it manually.

it's really mind boggling that one of the best squad based tactical games is about 12 years old. Even adventure games have made a comeback in resent years, but for us who love the idea of commanding courageous commandos to victory there's nothing worth noting in development until now.

-Gunhead

You can't blame a game for how lame the players are going to be. JA2 modded is a bit of fun; if people are sad enough to sit there for hours doing nothing but boring training, that isn't really JA2's problem (especially since nerds hate time limits like 'eventually the Queen just comes and kills you').

Lol @ 'indig', however.

Well, in 1.13 I usually had every guy carry a good sniper rifle (magnum or AMP) and an assault rifle like the G-36. Didn't use SMGs, pistols or other stuff much except at the start.

PeZook wrote:I never bother with leadership for the IMP character ; Ira can handle training the militia just fine at the start, and if you play with Drassen counterattack enabled, I need every good shooter I can get

The idea behind Leadership for the IMP is on being able to quickly train up my indigenous characters -- focusing on Ira, Dmitri, Hamous, and (assuming they're salvageable) Shank and Dynamo -- as good shooters, though Ira can eventually also take the lead here. It also lets me "maximize" my results with training up the militia. Even if you don't rig the game to allow training of veteran militia, you can send the "spares" (after training up all 20 militia in a sector to "experienced" status, light blue instead of green or "veteran" dark blue) off as mobile roaming squads of 5 members each. At one point one of my roaming squads reached the gates of Meduna!

Y'know, the design of JA2 tries to HIDE the spreadsheet behind fun. Sitting there training forever is ... sub-optimal.

It's not like you need to train any of your mercs at all, anyway ; They pick up skills fast enough while doing missions. I sometimes take Dynamo to Meduna to deliver karma to the Queen ; And he does fine without sitting in a sector for hours while training. Your starting group will all turn into mass-killing badasses during the natural progression of the game, too (they are the best mercs in the game, since you don't have to pay them through the nose even when their skill gets ridiculously high)