StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It finally happened. This is the back catalog I've been waiting a while for. EA managed to gobble up a LOT of older game companies and they have an extensive back catalog.

http://www.gog.com/en/news/gog_com_s_ca ... _ea_titles

Some notables for now. Wing Commander: Privateer, Ultima Under World 1&2, and Crusader No Remorse.

Due to licensing issues some EA titles aren't available. In addition Privateer is without its expansion, which I find unforgivable. Even still, this is a move in the right direction. Now we just need to get Microsoft and Lucas Arts to sign up.

Here's hoping they slip the SMAC expansion into the next wave...

Alyeska wrote:It finally happened. This is the back catalog I've been waiting a while for. EA managed to gobble up a LOT of older game companies and they have an extensive back catalog.

http://www.gog.com/en/news/gog_com_s_ca ... _ea_titles

Some notables for now. Wing Commander: Privateer, Ultima Under World 1&2, and Crusader No Remorse.

Due to licensing issues some EA titles aren't available. In addition Privateer is without its expansion, which I find unforgivable. Even still, this is a move in the right direction. Now we just need to get Microsoft and Lucas Arts to sign up.

Come on baby, let's get me some X-Wing Alliance!

I kinda wish the Quest For Glory series was there. They have all of King's Quest, Space Quest and Police Quest. No QFG love? I am saddened.

Cool, I'll finally get to play Dungeon Keeper, albeit the low resolution DOS version without the expansion. Out of curiosity, who owns the rights to the original 4 Wingcommander games. I only ever had the opportunity to play 3 and 4, and then only on the Playstation.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Cool, I'll finally get to play Dungeon Keeper, albeit the low resolution DOS version without the expansion. Out of curiosity, who owns the rights to the original 4 Wingcommander games. I only ever had the opportunity to play 3 and 4, and then only on the Playstation.

Unless I'm mistaken didn't Origin originally owned the IP rights to the game?

That sounds right, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist anymore. Actually, that's the big headache finding out who owns what now, as the original IP owners barring a few don't exist anymore, and there have been so many buyouts. Compounding the fact is one company doesn't necessarilly buy all the IP another company has.

Case in point Bungie Studios. Before being bought by MS around 2000, Take2 acquired the rights to Myth and ONI, while leaving the rights to Halo, Marathon and potentially others to Bungie. Fast forward to the almost unprecedented split of Bungie from Microsoft. I know MS owns Halo. I'm pretty sure Bungie owns Marathon, and I've no idea who owns the other IP such as Pathways into Darkness and Minotaur: The Labyrinths of Crete.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:That sounds right, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist anymore. Actually, that's the big headache finding out who owns what now, as the original IP owners barring a few don't exist anymore, and there have been so many buyouts. Compounding the fact is one company doesn't necessarilly buy all the IP another company has.

Case in point Bungie Studios. Before being bought by MS around 2000, Take2 acquired the rights to Myth and ONI, while leaving the rights to Halo, Marathon and potentially others to Bungie. Fast forward to the almost unprecedented split of Bungie from Microsoft. I know MS owns Halo. I'm pretty sure Bungie owns Marathon, and I've no idea who owns the other IP such as Pathways into Darkness and Minotaur: The Labyrinths of Crete.

I think in cases like that, with games that aren't being sold any more and the IP rights situation is unclear, I don't think its unethical to go to an abandonware site and get these games.

bobalot wrote:

Wing Commander MAD wrote:That sounds right, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist anymore. Actually, that's the big headache finding out who owns what now, as the original IP owners barring a few don't exist anymore, and there have been so many buyouts. Compounding the fact is one company doesn't necessarilly buy all the IP another company has.

Case in point Bungie Studios. Before being bought by MS around 2000, Take2 acquired the rights to Myth and ONI, while leaving the rights to Halo, Marathon and potentially others to Bungie. Fast forward to the almost unprecedented split of Bungie from Microsoft. I know MS owns Halo. I'm pretty sure Bungie owns Marathon, and I've no idea who owns the other IP such as Pathways into Darkness and Minotaur: The Labyrinths of Crete.

I think in cases like that, with games that aren't being sold any more and the IP rights situation is unclear, I don't think its unethical to go to an abandonware site and get these games.

However it is still just as illegal.

Shit like this is why I think software copyrights last too long. They should last no longer than 5 years after last patch. At that point the software is clearly unsupported. Separate the game from the story. The game becomes public domain, but the story isn't. That way the game can be legally downloaded, but the owners of the series are the only ones who can keep making that story.

Steel wrote:However it is still just as illegal.

Not quite. According to the Entertainment Software Association's guidelines, anything that's been unavailable commercially for more than ten years is de facto freeware, though some companies have chosen to opt out of that.

Alyeska wrote:Shit like this is why I think software copyrights last too long. They should last no longer than 5 years after last patch. At that point the software is clearly unsupported. Separate the game from the story. The game becomes public domain, but the story isn't. That way the game can be legally downloaded, but the owners of the series are the only ones who can keep making that story.

That's a pretty good idea and I would love it, but I think the money the developers are making via GOG and other sites just speaks against it.

Thanas wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Shit like this is why I think software copyrights last too long. They should last no longer than 5 years after last patch. At that point the software is clearly unsupported. Separate the game from the story. The game becomes public domain, but the story isn't. That way the game can be legally downloaded, but the owners of the series are the only ones who can keep making that story.

That's a pretty good idea and I would love it, but I think the money the developers are making via GOG and other sites just speaks against it.

I would argue that software such as that is getting patched and used again. If GOG offered a continuing service to ensure viability with new OSs, I have no problem with the software not being public domain.

But I look at cases such as Wing Commander Privateer. EA released a half product. The software is more than 15 years old. EA was already beat to the punch because people recreated Privateer For Free. What they are doing on GOG is worthless.

The whole idea of abandonware is amazingly stupid and will probably never get legal support, because source code is already released by organisations that don't care anymore.

I think what GOG does is useless because the people who want to play these games are so old they probably already own them, but I guess the convenience/impulse market is there.

GOG offers ease of use for people who can't be bothered to get really ancient games running on new machines. Heck, getting Crusader to run on my PC-before-my-new-one was a bitch until I got that easy to use DosBox shell program.

I'll definitely be buying Crusader (I assume they'll release No Regret as well, which I didn't get around to finishing on my old PC) on GOG. I never owned the original game.

I'm also really hoping for System Shock, as well as the rest of the Ultima series - especially Ultima 7 which I have never played.

Oh, and if Privateer came out - how about Wing Commander?

OH, and Terra Nova Strike Force Centauri!

If you know about Dosbox (which has been around for ages), whats the motivation to buy a game you already own again? Games like System Shock are already pretty damn portable - even playable off USB - and I'm pretty sure GOG just uses Dosbox anyway.

How many people under 20 buy games from GOG? Their prices are pretty good (since a $5 GOG game might be ugly, clunky and backward but it'll get way more play than a $5 piece of Steam shovelware).

Stark wrote:If you know about Dosbox (which has been around for ages), whats the motivation to buy a game you already own again? Games like System Shock are already pretty damn portable - even playable off USB - and I'm pretty sure GOG just uses Dosbox anyway.

For me, its because DosBox is a fiddly pain in the ass to actually deal with. I'd much rather just click the icon and boom, there's my game. And the price is totally negligible, so its not even a factor. Its pure convenience.

How many people under 20 buy games from GOG? Their prices are pretty good (since a $5 GOG game might be ugly, clunky and backward but it'll get way more play than a $5 piece of Steam shovelware).

Well, I'm sure Witcher 2 gave them some good publicity lately, given that they subverted the bullshit Australian price increase (luckily I preordered from them before that happened) by giving store credit.

I don't think I've ever configured Dosbox for a given game; the defaults run everything. The whole DD industry is predicated on people being lazy and that's not specific to GOG. 'I paid $8 rather than type a sentence'.

I'd be curious how many people buy actual non legacy shit games from GOG, given their lack of a brainwashing client like Steam. The sort of impulse-driven hoarding nerd who want both the good and the crap Crusader game are over-represented on SDN, and I doubt they're going to publish their sales figures.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I use it mostly for games I really liked the look of when I was a kid but never got a chance to play (not much pocket money and Mum has issues with violent videogames), plus the occasional purchase of something I've never heard of before but which looks interesting. Besides, if you want something that'll run on a cheap 10-inch netbook there aren't a lot of other choices.

Stark wrote:I don't think I've ever configured Dosbox for a given game; the defaults run everything. The whole DD industry is predicated on people being lazy and that's not specific to GOG. 'I paid $8 rather than type a sentence'.

That was never my experience. The shell (D-Fend?) ran Crusader much better, but I would rather pay $5 to $8 for a full copy of the game than stuff around with some archaic interface.

And in the case of System Shock, the game didn't work terribly well. For one, the damn thing couldn't be finished. The last Cyberspace level filled up with SHODAN's face in one second flat when the fight started.

I'd be curious how many people buy actual non legacy shit games from GOG, given their lack of a brainwashing client like Steam. The sort of impulse-driven hoarding nerd who want both the good and the crap Crusader game are over-represented on SDN, and I doubt they're going to publish their sales figures.

Which was the good Crusader game, and which was the crap one? No Regret was identical to the first game except it had more of everything (enemies, guns, death animations, movement options), I fail to see how it could be crap.

Stark wrote:The whole idea of abandonware is amazingly stupid and will probably never get legal support, because source code is already released by organisations that don't care anymore.

Would you care to word that in a more coherent sentence? It sounds down right contradictory.

As it stands abandonware is a perfectly valid argument. Software is extremely brittle. Usability decreases with age. There is old software that is impossible to run these days because of changes in architexture. Just because its not legal doesn't make it immoral. Now a lot of people are calling things abandonware which clearly are not. I also believe that people who downloaded in good faith for free are morally obligated to purchase the software if it is re-release in the future.

I think what GOG does is useless because the people who want to play these games are so old they probably already own them, but I guess the convenience/impulse market is there.

Useless? Half the titles I purchased from GOG are games I've never owned or played. Fallout, Fallout 2, to name a few. Sure, I've bought some which I already own. The ability to run the game without a disk and already ported to run in a modern OS is very nice. I also don't mind showing support for an older IP that hasn't been supported in some time. If GOG was useless, it wouldn't be making a profit. Instead they keep signing new deals with publishers and adding more games.

You think it's 'valid' because you like downloading stuff for free. Even if you shrined some ridiculous 'only own it until x years after you stop supporting it' idea into law, publishers would just keep pushing out tiny incremental patches to game the law and retain the value of the IP. The very fact that GOG can make money out of selling old games demonstrates why it's daft to expect owners everywhere to lose their asset because people want to play old games. If I own something, what I'm doing with it doesn't have to make sense to someone else or I lose ownership of it.

The idea that pirates (ie abandonware users) are morally obligated to buy software if its re-released is bizarre. If something is old, its free, unless someone is selling it? Does that mean any game still sitting on a shelf in a shop doesn't qualify for abandonware piracy exemption? How much effort is a nerd individual expected to make before it's too hard for a game to be protected by IP law?

Vympel, didn't one of the Crusader games have a slightly different control system? Maybe I just couldn't walk sideways in 1994. The controls were always the worst part of the game.

If a law like that got old games patched to usability on modern operating systems by their original manufacturers and actively marketed, I'd consider that a net gain. Sure, GOG.com would hate it, but they only exist because old games aren't supported. If it suddenly made financial sense to continue to support old games for IPs you cared about, hey, win.

Sucks to be anyone who considers the rights to arcade games an asset, I guess. Sorry, nerds on the internet think that should all be free. Custom hardware? Shoulda been free years ago!

The idea that the law is an instrument to pressure IP holders to make their games work on modern OS is utterly bizarre. Own something? Not doing what I want with it? YOU DON'T OWN IT ANYMORE.

Stark wrote: Vympel, didn't one of the Crusader games have a slightly different control system? Maybe I just couldn't walk sideways in 1994. The controls were always the worst part of the game.

Yeah, they weren't very intuitive, but it wasn't too bad when you got used to them. My memory is vague - shameful, really, considering I last played both games in 2009 (or was it 2010?). All I remember for certain is that the sequel had more moves. You could definitely strafe though, I remember that clearly. You just did so very slowly (or was that only in No Regret? Bahhhh .....!)