StarDestroyer.Net BBS

...meaning time for Eleas to buy himself a new computer. Advise Him, peons.

Tentatively, this is what I need:

• A powerful, reasonably silent computer with good longevity.
• SSD, at least for the OS, which will be Windows 7.
• A monitor with good image and color fidelity, as I'm unusually affected by light levels.

Initial budget is $1800. Bear in mind, the power in this flat is so-so, meaning this includes a surge protector or even a UPS. Also, the budget includes the OS, keyboard, casing, speakers, etc. The computer is going to be used for programming, gaming, surfing and everyday use.

Given all those annoying constraints, what's my best bet? What do I get in order to minimize bottlenecks and wasted money? Do I really need a big tower for the moBo, or have times changed?

For a monitor, you'll want an IPS-based display. Dell's UltraSharp series is an example (and a pretty good one at that).

Do you care about ECC memory?

phongn wrote:For a monitor, you'll want an IPS-based display. Dell's UltraSharp series is an example (and a pretty good one at that).

Do you care about ECC memory?

Depends. I'd love to be able to use XFS (backups are something I take seriously), but I hear it's not available for Windows. What other features does ECC provide?

Having looked it up, I'm still unsure. How does the error correction feature affect performance? How much more expensive is ECC? If it's just a teensy bit more expensive with no other drawbacks, I'm all for it.

ECC boards cost more and their associated CPUs (e.g. Intel Xeon E3) cost more and their RAM cost more. You won't be able to overclock. You will gain more reliability. I only ask this since it seems you'll be doing Real Work on it.

Otherwise, something like the Core i5-2500, -2500K or i7-2600K (4 cores/4 threads, 4/4 unlocked, 4/8 unlocked) would do fine and represent the "sweet spot" right now. Get an Intel 320 SSD. Either the GeForce GTX 570 or Radeon 6970 would be fine GPUs. Seasonic and Crucial make fine PSUs.

The only issue about the case is if the GPU will fit. Full towers are only needed if you have a lot of hard drives.

phongn wrote:ECC boards cost more and their associated CPUs (e.g. Intel Xeon E3) cost more and their RAM cost more. You won't be able to overclock. You will gain more reliability. I only ask this since it seems you'll be doing Real Work on it.

Yeah. I'll look into it. Overclocking isn't an issue for me.

Otherwise, something like the Core i5-2500, -2500K or i7-2600K (4 cores/4 threads, 4/4 unlocked, 4/8 unlocked) would do fine and represent the "sweet spot" right now. Get an Intel 320 SSD. Either the GeForce GTX 570 or Radeon 6970 would be fine GPUs. Seasonic and Crucial make fine PSUs.

How useful would RAID 1 be in terms of speedup? Would that be overkill? Also, is a UPS even worth considering, or is that solely for Serious Business?

The only issue about the case is if the GPU will fit. Full towers are only needed if you have a lot of hard drives.

Hm. Thing is, I was considering going MiniTower as I need the space. Is that even possible if you want, say, a GeForce GTX 570?

Eleas wrote:

phongn wrote:ECC boards cost more and their associated CPUs (e.g. Intel Xeon E3) cost more and their RAM cost more. You won't be able to overclock. You will gain more reliability. I only ask this since it seems you'll be doing Real Work on it.

Yeah. I'll look into it. Overclocking isn't an issue for me.

Right now you're limited to the Asus P8B WS if you want a Sandy Bridge Xeon (Xeon E3). And it's picky about RAM, so check the approved list.

How useful would RAID 1 be in terms of speedup? Would that be overkill? Also, is a UPS even worth considering, or is that solely for Serious Business?

It won't really speed you up, though you might want one for uptime reasons. A UPS is a good idea.

Hm. Thing is, I was considering going MiniTower as I need the space. Is that even possible if you want, say, a GeForce GTX 570?

Varies by the case, but some do support it.

Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

And if you're only going to use it for boot-up purposes, isn't getting a 120GB capacity SSD a bit overkill? How much space does the OS need for cryin' out loud.

Stofsk wrote:Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

It's fast and stuff loads quickly with negligible latency? Some colleagues have them in their laptops and it's like wallowing in mud when I use their machine and go back to mine (with a 7200RPM drive).

And if you're only going to use it for boot-up purposes, isn't getting a 120GB capacity SSD a bit overkill? How much space does the OS need for cryin' out loud.

Applications need space too! Plus, compiling on an SSD is very nice.

Stofsk wrote:Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

And if you're only going to use it for boot-up purposes, isn't getting a 120GB capacity SSD a bit overkill? How much space does the OS need for cryin' out loud.

120GB is overkill for boot-up purposes only, but an SSD is also dramatically better for gaming (or any program) because it reduces load times substantially. Every time you go to your hard-disk, the SSD is going to do it faster and better, and this can significantly impact system performance. Tom's Hardware has argued that it's the best single upgrade for older systems, in general--moreso than RAM, graphics cards, processor, etc. I would say that for an $1800 system, some SSD is absolutely necessary to deliver a modern experience, even though you'll need a separate magnetic drive for things like media storage.

Eleas wrote:How useful would RAID 1 be in terms of speedup? Would that be overkill? Also, is a UPS even worth considering, or is that solely for Serious Business?

RAID 1 is not much of a boost--you're much better off going with an SSD solution.

UPS is worth considering only if you're really scared of power outages. It's not really an integral part of a computer system.

Hm. Thing is, I was considering going MiniTower as I need the space. Is that even possible if you want, say, a GeForce GTX 570?

It's possible, but not really recommended. At that small form factor, you're going to have to make some real tradeoffs between your desire for a cool and quiet rig and that kind of performance graphics card. I even read a review where Anandtech was able to shove a GTX 580 into a Lian-Li mini-ITX case (though they had absolutely nothing good to say about the assembly process itself, and slammed the case for the difficulty of getting the rig to even work, and for its incredibly poor thermal performance in doing so).

In terms of cases, the Thor v2 is considered the standard by which other towers are judged, but if you really want to go with a miniTower, I've seen really good things said about the Fractal Design Define MiniTower, which is the USB 3.0-compatible, shrunken version of the excellent main Fractal Design line.

phongn wrote:

Stofsk wrote:Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

It's fast and stuff loads quickly with negligible latency? Some colleagues have them in their laptops and it's like wallowing in mud when I use their machine and go back to mine (with a 7200RPM drive).

It's just one of those things where I don't know if the benefit outweighs the cost.

phongn wrote:

And if you're only going to use it for boot-up purposes, isn't getting a 120GB capacity SSD a bit overkill? How much space does the OS need for cryin' out loud.

Applications need space too! Plus, compiling on an SSD is very nice.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Stofsk wrote:Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

And if you're only going to use it for boot-up purposes, isn't getting a 120GB capacity SSD a bit overkill? How much space does the OS need for cryin' out loud.

120GB is overkill for boot-up purposes only, but an SSD is also dramatically better for gaming (or any program) because it reduces load times substantially. Every time you go to your hard-disk, the SSD is going to do it faster and better, and this can significantly impact system performance. Tom's Hardware has argued that it's the best single upgrade for older systems, in general--moreso than RAM, graphics cards, processor, etc. I would say that for an $1800 system, some SSD is absolutely necessary to deliver a modern experience, even though you'll need a separate magnetic drive for things like media storage.

The reason I'm a bit hesitant to get an SSD is because they're still pretty pricey, and 120-128GB doesn't seem like it'll last long when some modern games, like BF3, have pretty huge disk space requirements (in BF3's case it needs 20GB apparently - which fucking spins me out, what in god's name do they need that much space for?). I'm sort of debating the merits of going the SSD route, and if so whether it is better to pay the greater cost for a 240-250GB SSD. And yeah, obviously I'd need separate HDDs for media storage.

sorry eleas if i have hijacked your thread ;_;

phongn wrote:A UPS is a good idea.

A UPS it is then.

MoO wrote:

Eleas wrote:How useful would RAID 1 be in terms of speedup? Would that be overkill? Also, is a UPS even worth considering, or is that solely for Serious Business?

RAID 1 is not much of a boost--you're much better off going with an SSD solution.

Ah. No, I was talking a RAID 1 set of SSD. Last night I was over at a friend who installed Win 7 on his RAIDed SSD disks. The time he spent disabling protocols he didn't need vastly overshadowed the actual install time, which was a matter of moments.

MoO wrote:UPS is worth considering only if you're really scared of power outages. It's not really an integral part of a computer system.

You know, I think I am. The power in this flat isn't grounded if you can believe it. I know I couldn't, not at first.

MoO wrote:

Hm. Thing is, I was considering going MiniTower as I need the space. Is that even possible if you want, say, a GeForce GTX 570?

It's possible, but not really recommended. At that small form factor, you're going to have to make some real tradeoffs between your desire for a cool and quiet rig and that kind of performance graphics card. I even read a review where Anandtech was able to shove a GTX 580 into a Lian-Li mini-ITX case (though they had absolutely nothing good to say about the assembly process itself, and slammed the case for the difficulty of getting the rig to even work, and for its incredibly poor thermal performance in doing so).

Noted. I suppose I'll go full tower.

MoO wrote:In terms of cases, the Thor v2 is considered the standard by which other towers are judged, but if you really want to go with a miniTower, I've seen really good things said about the Fractal Design Define MiniTower, which is the USB 3.0-compatible, shrunken version of the excellent main Fractal Design line.

I'm abandoning the miniTower idea. Something like the Thor v2 would be ideal -- good airflow, quiet, snap-in sideways HD docks, grommets to keep cabling in line... I'm really liking what I see there. Unfortunately, I have no idea who imports the Thor v2 or comparable stuff to Scandinavia.

Stofsk wrote:The reason I'm a bit hesitant to get an SSD is because they're still pretty pricey, and 120-128GB doesn't seem like it'll last long when some modern games, like BF3, have pretty huge disk space requirements (in BF3's case it needs 20GB apparently - which fucking spins me out, what in god's name do they need that much space for?). I'm sort of debating the merits of going the SSD route, and if so whether it is better to pay the greater cost for a 240-250GB SSD. And yeah, obviously I'd need separate HDDs for media storage.

I probably should have said that I've got a file server up.

Stofsk wrote:sorry eleas if i have hijacked your thread ;_;

I'd say it's okay but sadly, I've been getting into the Icelandic sagas of late. In other words, I project this insult can only end in a family feud that will decimate both our houses.

On the plus side, the one-liners will be bitchin'.

Eleas wrote:

Stofsk wrote:sorry eleas if i have hijacked your thread ;_;

I'd say it's okay but sadly, I've been getting into the Icelandic sagas of late. In other words, I project this insult can only end in a family feud that will decimate both our houses.

On the plus side, the one-liners will be bitchin'.

don't make me bite my thumb at thee

Stofsk wrote:

phongn wrote:

Stofsk wrote:Is there much point in getting an SSD anyway? I mean beyond boot-up bragging purposes.

It's fast and stuff loads quickly with negligible latency? Some colleagues have them in their laptops and it's like wallowing in mud when I use their machine and go back to mine (with a 7200RPM drive).

It's just one of those things where I don't know if the benefit outweighs the cost.

SSDs provide order-of-magnitude(s) performance increase on the very slowest part of one's computer. Is it worth the cost? Up to you. Considering the OP has a $1800 budget, I think he can put one it.

Master of Ossus wrote:It's possible, but not really recommended. At that small form factor, you're going to have to make some real tradeoffs between your desire for a cool and quiet rig and that kind of performance graphics card. I even read a review where Anandtech was able to shove a GTX 580 into a Lian-Li mini-ITX case (though they had absolutely nothing good to say about the assembly process itself, and slammed the case for the difficulty of getting the rig to even work, and for its incredibly poor thermal performance in doing so).

I didn't mean going SFF! A midtower or mATX small tower would probably be just fine.

In terms of cases, the Thor v2 is considered the standard by which other towers are judged, but if you really want to go with a miniTower, I've seen really good things said about the Fractal Design Define MiniTower, which is the USB 3.0-compatible, shrunken version of the excellent main Fractal Design line.

I think I prefer Fractal Design and Corsair - plus the Thor v2 is huge and rank overkill.

Eleas wrote:Ah. No, I was talking a RAID 1 set of SSD. Last night I was over at a friend who installed Win 7 on his RAIDed SSD disks. The time he spent disabling protocols he didn't need vastly overshadowed the actual install time, which was a matter of moments.

You generally need specialized controllers to get a speed boost for RAID-1. Get it for availability, not for performance.

I'm abandoning the miniTower idea. Something like the Thor v2 would be ideal -- good airflow, quiet, snap-in sideways HD docks, grommets to keep cabling in line... I'm really liking what I see there. Unfortunately, I have no idea who imports the Thor v2 or comparable stuff to Scandinavia.

You could go midtower, though. No need to necessarily get an enormous full tower.

Eleas wrote:Ah. No, I was talking a RAID 1 set of SSD. Last night I was over at a friend who installed Win 7 on his RAIDed SSD disks. The time he spent disabling protocols he didn't need vastly overshadowed the actual install time, which was a matter of moments.

I would actually advise against RAID 1 on SSDs. You can probably create scenarios where it makes sense, but in general I think you're better off buying a single, larger (and pricier) SSD. The larger ones are almost always higher-quality, and my understanding is that you can gain more performance on one drive for the same money it would cost to get two smaller and lower budget models. You also won't have to worry about finding a good RAID controller to run the system.

You know, I think I am. The power in this flat isn't grounded if you can believe it. I know I couldn't, not at first.

Cool.

Noted. I suppose I'll go full tower.

Well, you don't have to leap that far. There are midtower designs, and even a limited number of cases that are roomier than the tiny Lian Li one that did so badly in that build example (although I am very partial to the Thor).

phongn wrote:I didn't mean going SFF! A midtower or mATX small tower would probably be just fine.

True--I didn't mean to create that false dichotomy. As above, I like the Thor, but I agree that there are some other great cases out there that aren't as big as my living room.

Master of Ossus wrote:I would actually advise against RAID 1 on SSDs. You can probably create scenarios where it makes sense, but in general I think you're better off buying a single, larger (and pricier) SSD. The larger ones are almost always higher-quality, and my understanding is that you can gain more performance on one drive for the same money it would cost to get two smaller and lower budget models. You also won't have to worry about finding a good RAID controller to run the system.

I think that's decided, then. One SSD should do me just fine.

Noted. I suppose I'll go full tower.

Well, you don't have to leap that far. There are midtower designs, and even a limited number of cases that are roomier than the tiny Lian Li one that did so badly in that build example (although I am very partial to the Thor).

I think midtower is the sweet spot. Though I am tired of lugging it around, which has happened on occasion. Still, moving is going to be far less of an issue with an SSD as opposed to a regular HD.

phongn wrote:I didn't mean going SFF! A midtower or mATX small tower would probably be just fine.

True--I didn't mean to create that false dichotomy. As above, I like the Thor, but I agree that there are some other great cases out there that aren't as big as my living room.

Plus, the Thor has a fatal flaw in that the top of the case is easily opened, transforming the cat resting on top of it into a whirling dervish of fury, teeth, and agony.