StarDestroyer.Net BBS

After several shitty years, my pavilion has finally started to die, so I've decided to take this opportunity to replace it. Unfortunately, I have approximately zero knowledge of the present array of hardware available. I'd like to avoid the ignorant decision making that saddled me with what I currently have, so I'm Hoping someone here can at least point me in the right direction. The things I'm interested in are:

Primary uses:
-web surfing
-media playing
-writing

Priorities
-reasonably portable
-runs cool (my current laptop heats up quite quickly after boot up, which makes it rather uncomfortable to use for long stretches of writing)
-ergonomic
-reliable
-not an Apple Product

Target price range is <$600 dollars, though I'm willing to go above for a good machine. I don't care so much about battery life, as long as it's more than 30 minutes. Since I'm probably going to be staring at this thing for hours on end, either at a word processor or a video, I'd rather not end up with something that has a tiny screen, but I don't really need a gigantic one either.

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nevermind.

If you're looking for a well built machine, I'd suggest any of Lenovo's business class laptops. Although I haven't owned one, I've used a few, and they all seem to be well constructed and run reasonably well.

http://www.lenovo.com/us/en/

I have to ask though, why the aversion to Apple products? I've used quite a few Apple laptops, and I own an iMac - and the laptops are very well built, not to mention they satisfy all of your priorities. They are above your 600 ballpark price, but you said you're willing to go above for a good machine.

Vyraeth wrote:If you're looking for a well built machine, I'd suggest any of Lenovo's business class laptops. Although I haven't owned one, I've used a few, and they all seem to be well constructed and run reasonably well.

http://www.lenovo.com/us/en/

I have to ask though, why the aversion to Apple products? I've used quite a few Apple laptops, and I own an iMac - and the laptops are very well built, not to mention they satisfy all of your priorities. They are above your 600 ballpark price, but you said you're willing to go above for a good machine.

Apple is about twice the price for the same level of functionality. Also, if he has old files he wants to bring with him he wouldn't be able to.

Block wrote: Apple is about twice the price for the same level of functionality.

Bullshit.

Block wrote:Also, if he has old files he wants to bring with him he wouldn't be able to.

Bullshit.

Skgoa wrote:

Block wrote: Apple is about twice the price for the same level of functionality.

Bullshit.

The cheapest Apple netbook is $999. The cheapest Apple real laptop is $1800 (more if you need Windows). For comparison the Dell XPS 15z is $1200 and is better in every way (twice as much memory, more hard drive space, faster CPU, same weight and dimensions, cheaper to upgrade). So yes, the huge Apple Branding Tax is very much in effect, and none of their solutions is relevant to a $600 budget.

For this application I would go for a low-end 17" laptop e.g. Inspiron 17R, which is $550 and still has plenty of power for web surfing and playing movies. Unless you have a good external monitor and keyboard already, in which case a small laptop or even netbook (if you can live without an optical drive) would be fine.

Starglider wrote:

Skgoa wrote:

Block wrote: Apple is about twice the price for the same level of functionality.

Bullshit.

The cheapest Apple netbook is $999. The cheapest Apple real laptop is $1800 (more if you need Windows). For comparison the Dell XPS 15z is $1200 and is better in every way (twice as much memory, more hard drive space, faster CPU, same weight and dimensions, cheaper to upgrade). So yes, the huge Apple Branding Tax is very much in effect, and

False equivalence. I.e. you are comparing Apples and Netbooks. Lets remember: his claim is about functionality, not little numbers on the side of the box the laptop comes in.

Starglider wrote: none of their solutions is relevant to a $600 budget.

True but that is not the claim Block made.

Skgoa wrote:

Starglider wrote:

Skgoa wrote: Bullshit.

The cheapest Apple netbook is $999. The cheapest Apple real laptop is $1800 (more if you need Windows). For comparison the Dell XPS 15z is $1200 and is better in every way (twice as much memory, more hard drive space, faster CPU, same weight and dimensions, cheaper to upgrade). So yes, the huge Apple Branding Tax is very much in effect, and

False equivalence. I.e. you are comparing Apples and Netbooks. Lets remember: his claim is about functionality, not little numbers on the side of the box the laptop comes in.

No, the XPS 15z is a laptop. Not a netbook.

Block wrote:No, the XPS 15z is a laptop. Not a netbook.

I think he meant 'the Air isn't a netbook', but it is by any sensible definition even though Apple doesn't call it that; lower spec than any real laptop, tiny screen, no optical drive, almost impossible to upgrade.

The XPS 15z on the other hand is not just a real laptop, it's a reasonable gaming machine and a Mac Book upgraded to the same spec is almost twice as expensive. I mentioned it because the dimensions and build quality are very similar, but it's the same story with most other manufacturers.

It's still a meaningless comparison. A sports car is bad at hauling furniture. Does that mean it has "less functionality [than a truck} at a higher price"? No. There are pros and cons for each product.
I.e. if I were in a position where I needed am XPS 15z, I might buy one. But I am not and thus would not buy anything else but a Mac right now, if my current MacBook died. If you value little numbers higher than other features, that's your decission - but claims about functionality that are bullshit stay bullshit, regardless of what your personal preferences are.

Skgoa wrote:It's still a meaningless comparison. A sports car is bad at hauling furniture. Does that mean it has "less functionality [than a truck} at a higher price"? No. There are pros and cons for each product.

You have yet to name one 'pro' for the MacBook or for that matter one 'con' for the XPS. The Apple solutions are twice the price for the same functionality because as far as we know, they have no more functionality (actually a little less) than the competitors. 'Runs OS X' is only relevant if you already have OS X experience and software.

But I am not and thus would not buy anything else but a Mac right now

That much is evident.

If you value little numbers higher than other features, that's your decission

What 'other features'? Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you say 'specs don't matter, price isn't important' then fail to specify any other reason to buy Apple?

Apple has ridiculously bad cost/benefit ratio. Everytime I consider Apple I am reminded of how they charge me twice for less computer power. Oh, and their ridiculous UI, which does not have \ printed on their keyboard (because you would never use it, right?) and does not have right-click. Seriously, wtf?

Starglider wrote:The cheapest Apple real laptop is $1800 (more if you need Windows). For comparison the Dell XPS 15z is $1200 and is better in every way (twice as much memory, more hard drive space, faster CPU, same weight and dimensions, cheaper to upgrade). So yes, the huge Apple Branding Tax is very much in effect, and none of their solutions is relevant to a $600 budget.

Where is this mythical Dell XPS 15z that is $1200 and is better than an $1800 MacBook Pro? It doesn't exist. Your claim about a faster CPU is either an outright lie, or an unintentional distortion. I looked up the machine you quoted, here's the link: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/ ... id=xps-15z - the CPU on that machine is a duo-core Core i5 - the CPU on an $1800 MacBook Pro is a quad core Core i7. The architecture on the i7 is better as is the L3 Cache, yeah, the Dell's processor has a slightly better clock speed, but the idea that it makes it a faster CPU is laughable. That's like claiming a 3.4 GHz Pentium 4 is faster than a 2.5 GHz Core i5 desktop CPU.

Not to mention, the graphics card on the Dell, while having better video RAM is significantly inferior to the MacBook Pro's GPU, as evidenced by these benchmarks:

1) http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon ... 958.0.html
2) http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeF ... 889.0.html

The Dell does have a faster and larger hard drive, that much I cannot argue with. It also does come with more RAM, although I question the timings on the RAM - but since I didn't research that I won't dispute it for now. However, those two shortcomings do not indicate that the Dell is a better machine.

Not to mention your analysis didn't even factor in things like battery life or build quality. And while build quality is not really an objective thing we can compare: http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/23/dell-xps-15z-review/ <-- this review lends some credit to the idea that the build quality of the Dell is not as good as the MacBook Pro, which is what I would have suspected originally.

Lastly, the battery life according to Engadget's measurements is not even close to comparable, and that is a significant feature for a laptop.

Thanas wrote: Apple has ridiculously bad cost/benefit ratio. Everytime I consider Apple I am reminded of how they charge me twice for less computer power. Oh, and their ridiculous UI, which does not have \ printed on their keyboard (because you would never use it, right?) and does not have right-click. Seriously, wtf?

And your evidence that it has bad cost/benefit ratio? Or do you enjoy making baseless claims? Also, what the hell are you talking about a lack of "\" or no right click? I right click all the time on my Mac, and I also just typed the preceding \ with an Apple Wireless Keyboard. Have you even used a Mac or are you just assuming things about the computers based on what you've heard?

Several manufacturers offer a basically similar Intel Atom-powered netbook with a 10-inch widescreen, 1GB of RAM and a 160GB hard drive for around $300. If your film collections isn't mostly streamed or downloaded, I picked up an external DVD drive for about $80 on top of that. The screen isn't great for watching films on, but it's fine for word-processing and web surfing, and you could pick up a pretty good flatscreen monitor for your desk at home (how often do you watch films on the train or in McDonalds or whatever?) and still be a good $100 short of the top end of your budget.

If you're looking for something a bit beefier than what Zaune is suggesting and capable of playing low-end games, I'd suggest an Lenovo X120e, which is around 500$. The other thinkpads are good if your requirements are beefier.

Starglider wrote:

Skgoa wrote:It's still a meaningless comparison. A sports car is bad at hauling furniture. Does that mean it has "less functionality [than a truck} at a higher price"? No. There are pros and cons for each product.

You have yet to name one 'pro' for the MacBook or for that matter one 'con' for the XPS.

And I don't have to. I didn't make any claim, Block and you have to show that your claims are right. That's how this works.
Ever since I bought my Mac I was forced into this discussion, again and agian. So I know exactly what would happen if I gave in and surrendered the high ground.

Starglider wrote: The Apple solutions are twice the price for the same functionality because as far as we know, they have no more functionality (actually a little less) than the competitors.

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Starglider wrote: 'Runs OS X' is only relevant if you already have OS X experience and software.

And the better screen, keyboard, and everything else I could mention, are also all irrelevant if you don't want them. Nice circular reasoning you have going there.

Starglider wrote:

But I am not and thus would not buy anything else but a Mac right now

That much is evident.

Oh boy, the old "you don't hate it, so you must be a fanboy" accusation.

Starglider wrote:

If you value little numbers higher than other features, that's your decission

What 'other features'? Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you say 'specs don't matter, price isn't important' then fail to specify any other reason to buy Apple?

And a Strawman, the hallmark of an idiot who doesn't have any arguments for the bullshit he spouts.

Vyraeth wrote:And your evidence that it has bad cost/benefit ratio? Or do you enjoy making baseless claims?

just one comparison which says Apple costs 400$ more and delivers worse performance.

Also, what the hell are you talking about a lack of "\" or no right click? I right click all the time on my Mac, and I also just typed the preceding \ with an Apple Wireless Keyboard. Have you even used a Mac or are you just assuming things about the computers based on what you've heard?

Actually, just three days ago I handled a MacBook Air and nowhere was the \ key to be found. It required some ridiculous combination of shift alt and 7 to find it, with this being nowhere printed on the keyboard. As you can see, I do like digging through unrelated document to find things that are just not there.

It's actually the most logical combination to produce the \, instead of the totally arbitrary "throw it on there and see were it lands" approach that seems to be behind the standard keyboard layout.

On a Mac:
Shift-7: /
Alt-7: |
Alt-Shift-7: \

On my windows desktop:
Shift-7: /
AltGr-<: |
AltGr-ß: \

I wouldn't even know where to look for the later two, if they weren't printed on. And the same is true for other special characters, like ~,
[I AM GOING TO HIT Submit NOW BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO FIND THESE ON MY DESKTOP]
edit:
[ON MY MAC NOW]
å, æ, ∑, ®, ç,œ,∫,±,… many of those aren't even printed on a windows keyboard. Yet on my MacBook I instinctively know what to do. As you just saw, I could not have written this post without a Mac. Less functionality, huh?


Note how I used "…", a character I didn't even know existed but tried to produce on a whim.

Shift-7: /
AltGr-<: |
AltGr-ß: \

What kind of keyboard is that? I assume some german one considering the ß. On my English layout windows keyboard (the most common ones as far as I can tell) it goes like this:
/ - numpad button, no shift required or anything.
\ - keyboard button, again no shift or anything.
| - Shift+\

So you get 2 out of 3 characters with just 1 button and the 3rd with just one shift combo. In fact, in all my life I have newer had to use the alt or shift+alt/ctrl+alt or what ever combinations for anything other than novelty.

Yep, it's the german QWERTZ layout. And yes, we are talking about uncommonly used characters, i.e. "novelty" characters. His criticism was that that character wasn't printed on the keyboard and required a "ridiculous" key combination. I showed that a) it doesn't need to be printed on, because b) Mac keyboards have extremely logical rules for how to produce the character you want.
But you are also right that / is on the Num pad. I totally forgot that. Although most laptops don't have that.

There are even better layouts than both Apple and IBM QWERTZ, but that was not the claim I debunked.

Pretty sure that \, | and / aren't "novelty" characters. I use them on an hourly basis at least. Hitting alt-shift-7 to produce a \ would be a huge pain in the ass (especially on windows systems). Then again I'm a just a silly systems/network admin and therefore not your average user.

Thanas wrote:Apple has ridiculously bad cost/benefit ratio. Everytime I consider Apple I am reminded of how they charge me twice for less computer power. Oh, and their ridiculous UI, which does not have \ printed on their keyboard (because you would never use it, right?) and does not have right-click. Seriously, wtf?

At least in US keyboards, there's a backslash. Also, UI-wise it's better not to force secondary-click (confuses new users) but the option is in System Preferences anyways? Two-finger click (or bottom-right) = secondary-click?

Thanas wrote:

Vyraeth wrote:And your evidence that it has bad cost/benefit ratio? Or do you enjoy making baseless claims?

just one comparison which says Apple costs 400$ more and delivers worse performance.

That's a five-year-old comparision, but yes, you always do pay the Apple Tax, plus the "business-laptop" tax. I mean, ThinkPads also cost more than Acer? There's also the added cost of buying a relatively lightweight laptop.

rapidsquirrel wrote:Pretty sure that \, | and / aren't "novelty" characters. I use them on an hourly basis at least. Hitting alt-shift-7 to produce a \ would be a huge pain in the ass (especially on windows systems). Then again I'm a just a silly systems/network admin and therefore not your average user.

Well, OSX is in the UNIX world, so backslash isn't that common.

Given that laptop market is more volatile than a fuel depot, I doubt anyone can tell you a good lappy that you can still find.

So I'll still say some incoherent shit you may find useful.

You may want to consider a used gaming laptop. Yeah it sounds strange but: it will have good screen and keyboard, will have a more or less newish battery since they were not meant to game on it, and should be solid and reliable.

At least 4 people I know did this and got pretty respectable computers like asus G1S for netbook prices (300 euros =400 bucks).

Ok, gaming laptops tend to get hot, but the trick is finding one with a Nvidia video card. Nvidia cards have a feature called Powermizer, that if properly set up massively downclocks the card unless its services are really needed.
This way those things ran at normal laptop heat levels (keyboard cold, underside noticeably warm but not unconfortable) unless used to play (when they needed a cooling stand).

--------------------------------
As for apple vs world debate I'll just say that their main catch is the OS (at least since they stopped using weird apple-only hardware you can buy one, nuke the OS and install windows on them). Windows is massively more compatible with anything and more or less any program (especially the free-ish homemade ones you find on the net) runs on it, the best Linux distros do have some kind of compatibility with windows programs (through Wine) but will not work with games or company-oriented programs, then you have OSX that looks cool and has multitouch and similar pointless crap but you can install only a limited amount of stuff on it.
And let's not speak of driver availability.
It's fucking easier to get something working on linux than on OSX if it isn't a APPLE-APPROVED device.
Being a tinkerer I find this massively annoying.
Also dislike the "stuff for snubs" attitude every apple product has.


I'd also like to point out the fact that finally Intel found its balls and began to make Ultrabooks, which are basically laptops cool as Apple's and with comparable or better performance but working with windows.

Not liking the kind of machine (solid-state, crappy video card, no modification possible), I'd never buy one, but I'm happy that some serious competition for apple's stuff is now on the fray.

someone_else wrote: then you have OSX that looks cool and has multitouch and similar pointless crap but you can install only a limited amount of stuff on it.

And that's the point were I have to jump in and say: "bullshit." I should have known better from "weird Apple only hardware", but at this point your post get's knee-jerk pretty obviously.


Guys, can we at least stop the outright lies? Nobody is forced to buy their computer from Apple. People also don't claim that owning Apple products makes you a better lover. So why do people go out of their way to hate one particular computer company?
It's especiall hilarious when you stop to consider that there actually are some pretty damning negative points regarding Apple's design choices. But no Apple-hater ever mentions those; it's always fabrications, distortions or little things like "I am used to the \ being on a different key."

Wow, this turned into a pissing contest real fast.

Dell makes quite a few good laptops for reasonable prices. I recommend you take a look at their site and try and build something to your liking. They also usually have free 3-5 day shipping, so you can save yourself $30 depending on when you shop. Also, pay the extra money for an Nvidia or ATI, avoiding the Intel cards. Although you may never need the graphics processing, Intel GPUs are usually shit for driver support and end up being a huge bottle-neck for the laptop. I have a Dell i5 with 6GBs of RAM that can't run WoW or Starcraft2 for shit because the Intel video drivers haven't been updated since 2009. Intel won't even release a generic driver if your card was put in a retail system. Fuck you Intel.

I'm personally looking into parting out an ASUS laptop for use around the house. I've been impressed with their parts for over a decade and recently bought a pre-fab computer for home use. Their Epad is also a nice alternative to the iPad with more functionality for ~$200 cheaper. Their laptops have been getting decent reviews and even at retail prices, they aren't terribly overpriced even with more hardware than you would even want in a laptop.

As for Apple, their 15" laptops start at $1,800. And that's really the issue: their primary comparison is by screen-size. Putting the 15s and 17s next to each other provides a $700 difference almost exclusively on gaining another 2" of viewable space. You can find 17" Dells routinely priced in the $1,100 range. Even blowing your load on hardware still puts your dollar amount well below the $2,500 starting point of Apple. Pointing out that Apple is overpriced isn't an insult: they are the BOSE of computing.