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The popular Sonic the Hedgehog game franchise had long passed its prime, and it's dying fast. It seemed for some unknown reasons, ever since Sonic Adventures 2 the series had walked into a catastrophic decline in every way. You see shit like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Unleashed and the most jarring of them all, Sonic 2006. It almost seemed that the SEGA deliberately sabotage their own cash cow game series. The recent Sonic Generation's mild success had barely been able to make up for the magnitude of the failings.

Can anyone please tell me their opinions as to why the Sonic series had suddenly become such catastrophic shit? What was it? Peter Principle on a company scale? Incompetent people getting into the Sonic Team via nepotism in SEGA? Game developers version of writer block? irremovable flaws in 3D game mechanics? Idiot greenhorn crap-fanfic-loving plot writers (Sonic 2006 case)? Bad collaborating developing companies?

How can you talk about how the series went downhill at Sonic 2, and then ask why it has suddenly declined? The brand has been near death for much of its existence, and they certainly never made the jump out of 2D with any success.

I'm not sure Sonic not being hugely popular is really a big deal for Sega, though.

Yeah, where the old mega drive games shined are the simple controls and physics rules. They started putting in too much crap after it went to 3D and didn't really design the control scheme that well.

Sonic 4's an excellent example of the developers completely missing the point.

My question is: Why was Sonic ever popular?

As a character, mostly because Mario (and, to a lesser extent, Link) had been the face of gaming for the better part of a decade, and Sonic probably seemed like a breath of fresh air at the time.

As for why the series was popular, well, the main series Mega Drive games (and Sonic CD) were genuinely good, and the first two Sonic Adventures games were decent for the time. After that though, Sonic Heroes didn't do much to progress the game mechanics, Shadow the Hedgehog was based around a character nobody really liked, Sonic 2006 was just a total trainwreck, and Sonic Unleashed was a case of one step forward (the sections where you actually played as Sonic) and two steps back (the Werehog stuff).

The last few games - 4, Colours, and Generations - have been successful enough to prove that there's still a decent enough audience for Sonic, but I think the last decade has removed any real chance that Sonic will be the kind of icon that he was twenty years ago. Probably doesn't help that the fanbase can be batshit at the best of times.

I thought Secret Rings was pretty good. Unlike Sonic Heroes, he actually felt fast in the game. I remember Sonic Team changed things to try to recapture the feeling of speed from the classic games, and they did a pretty good job with it. Moving backwards was a bit cumbersome, but it was pretty rare to actually need to do so.

One of the biggest issues with the Sonic series is developers and fans arguing over the general feel of the games in terms of "speed." Everyone remember the first level of each of the classic Genesis games that were designed to emphasize speed to show off the Blast Processing power of Sega. Pretty much each intro stage in Sonic 1,2, and 3+ were carefully designed to show that Sega does what Nintendon't. With games that didn't have a save feature until later, it's understandable that most people remember the first stage. Of course as soon as you get to the second or third stage, it's all slow platforming and those fucking underwater sections with token loop-de-loops thrown in to remind you this is about showing how fast the programmers can scroll the screen.

Maybe part of the problem is Sega hasn't found out how to get away with the same gameplay for nearly three decades like Nintendo has :3

VF5SS wrote:Maybe part of the problem is Sega hasn't found out how to get away with the same gameplay for nearly three decades like Nintendo has :3

The difference is that Nintendo keeps with the same basic gameplay formula, but executes it well and adds in enough new stuff to keep it feeling fresh (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise), while Sega - or more specifically, Sonic Team - keeps the same basic formula, but mixes it with really idiotic ideas, and sometimes executes it horribly for good measure.

Darth Yoshi wrote:I thought Secret Rings was pretty good. Unlike Sonic Heroes, he actually felt fast in the game. I remember Sonic Team changed things to try to recapture the feeling of speed from the classic games, and they did a pretty good job with it. Moving backwards was a bit cumbersome, but it was pretty rare to actually need to do so.

Go back and play Sonic 1. He's actually pretty slow in the old games, especially from a cold start, and being able to go quickly through levels was more about being able to make precisely timed jumps to keep up momentum once you actually had it.

One of the problems with modern Sonic games is that people interminably whined that Sonic wasn't "fast enough", so Sega basically ignored every other function of gameplay in order to have a character who moved really fast, and what we were left with was a character who was impossible to control, for the brief fractions of time that the camera deigned to allow him to remain on screen. This reached its nadir in Sonic 2006, which is borderline unplayable because the slightest control input will send Sonic sailing off a precipice to his death, and woe betide if you had to steer in flight to land on a platform. (Of course, since most people died of old age before it loaded a level, not many people knew that).

GuppyShark wrote:My question is: Why was Sonic ever popular?

Anti-Marioism.

The universe requires balance and Sonic provided that for a time.

I was a Sega kid during the hey day between them and Nintendo, if you can even call it that, and I liked Sonic just because it wasn't Mario and it was cool to have something more unique.

That and Sonic was fast.

in sonic 1 & 2 the only times sonic was fast is when he entered rollercoaster sections specifically designed for it

that was fine when it was a wow factor in the middle of a regular platform game

but with the later games, especially the 3d games, they build the entire game around rails to follow while being 'fast'

Dude, I didn't even know there was more than one Sonic game.

Did you know he has a dreadlocked sidekick and twin-tailed fox that flies helping him out later? No?

Really? That is horrible.

GuppyShark wrote:My question is: Why was Sonic ever popular?

What? And just were you in the 90's?

I agree sonic was all about speed, which was great because he was good at it, it was what the series was all about ie: The floors that fall behind you as you run past them or the slipperly slopes that increase your speed/reactions. Sonic himself at 2D looked cool as well did the texture and colouring of the surrondings in comparison to the mario series at the time. Sonic 1-3 and the sonic&knuckles game were quite creative with its 2D including from sonic 2 the ability to go 'super *saiyan* Sonic' Though it never really worked on 3D. Sonic adventure had good gameplay at times, but that and the games afterwards with the voiceacting, the near endless throw in of extra uninteresting characters like melodramatic 'shadow' who even had his own game where he uses a gun? That's like making sonic race around in a car! (which they sorta did!)

I agree with what some said that at the time the gaming physics and setup was more simpler, but even at that time Mario still became more innvative, mario 3 flying around in a cape, followed by super mario world added a whole new features that sonic series couldn't match over time.

Sonic will still be around, other franchises have fared worse then sonic that were once promising but Sonic is no longer a mascot of Sega, whereas Mario is pretty much still the flagship of nintendo. Sonic has just fallen down the order of things that he just Mario's second considering he is now on the same console (and games such as the mario&sonic oylmpics)

Korgeta wrote:

GuppyShark wrote:My question is: Why was Sonic ever popular?

What? And just were you in the 90's?

Playing Doom over my modem. >:D

Korgeta wrote:I agree with what some said that at the time the gaming physics and setup was more simpler, but even at that time Mario still became more innvative, mario 3 flying around in a cape, followed by super mario world added a whole new features that sonic series couldn't match over time.

Sorry to nitpick, but the Cape was introduced in Super Mario World, not SMB3, where the flying functions were taken in by the Raccoon and Tanooki forms instead. Just FYI.

As for Sonic, he got his moments in the sun besides the games (the good ones), with four animated shows (as well as one OVA and a Christmas special), and two comics (the still-running Archie series and the now-defunct Fleetway series from Britain which has an unofficial online continuation) but now he's pretty much plays second fiddle to Mario nowadays. And the less we talk about the fanbase, the better.

Havok wrote:Really? That is horrible.

You're missing out on two or three of the greatest classic platforming games by saying so.

Sonic 1, 2, 3, and "Sonic & Knuckles" are all fondly remembered as great 2D sidescrollers; personally, I loved Sonic Adventure 2 to bits as well, but I can understand why some people wouldn't.

And Knuckles? The echidna with dreadlocks? He could climb walls and fly. Imagine being a kid in the 90s who loved Sonic 2, got a copy of S&K, and found out that you could play as Knuckles in your favorite game and find all sorts of shortcuts and extra items the developers had hidden out of reach of Sonic or Tails.

Force Lord wrote:

Korgeta wrote:I agree with what some said that at the time the gaming physics and setup was more simpler, but even at that time Mario still became more innvative, mario 3 flying around in a cape, followed by super mario world added a whole new features that sonic series couldn't match over time.

Sorry to nitpick, but the Cape was introduced in Super Mario World, not SMB3, where the flying functions were taken in by the Raccoon and Tanooki forms instead. Just FYI.

As for Sonic, he got his moments in the sun besides the games (the good ones), with four animated shows (as well as one OVA and a Christmas special), and two comics (the still-running Archie series and the now-defunct Fleetway series from Britain which has an unofficial online continuation) but now he's pretty much plays second fiddle to Mario nowadays. And the less we talk about the fanbase, the better.

Oh yeah it was, I only remembered the racoon form just now, that was a rare powerup to find IMO!

Good thing you mention the comics, pretty much everyone I knew at school got the sonic comics and watched the cartoon shows, including that version where robotnick looked seriously 'bad boss' like in comparison to the other version where sonic had a fetish for chili dogs. Though I remember that darker version for robotnick constantly hitting some bald underling, snivel or something.

For a time it had a bigger profile then mario, but was it the jump to the next console or the games that squandered sonic's popularity. Even before sonic adventure i think it was marking a decline.

One thing i respect is that with shadow they had the decency to wrap up his amnesia arc fairly quickly (it's in heros and shadow the hedgehog and that's it.) Sonic Heroes was hardly a masterpiece but it was fairly managable and reasonably entertainment. The idea of Metal Sonic usurping his boss was intriguing.

I think the major failure of the series was it's inability to transition gracefully into 3D. While I agree that much of the original game's early appeal was simply as an alternative to mario (just look at how it was advertised), there was a genuinely different feel to the platforming in early sonic games that appealed to a lot of gamers.

Sonic 2, 3, and S&K were successful and fun to play because they kept the same basic formula (with minor improvements) with the same feel of high speed platforming. When the Next Big Thing in gaming was 3d, Mario managed to transition gracefully while sonic... didn't. That was when the series really jumped the shark IMO.

Since then, the franchise has descended into the same hell as so many other over-milked IPs. Bad writing, uninspired design, and regular failed attempts to "revitalize" the franchise have simply taken their toll.

Sonic 4 really showed us how far things have fallen. New Super Mario Bros successfully combined the feel of the old games with modern-ish graphics and some new gameplay elements. Sonic 4 felt like an aborted attempt to mash a modern sonic game into 2d. They've completely forgotten what actually made the original games fun.