Wargame: European Escalation

[Lonestar]

Anyone else pick up this game? I downloaded it on steam. Here is the homepage for the game.

It's a real-time tactics game set in Europe from 1975-85. There are over 300 different units from NATO and Warsaw Pact countries. I am enjoying it immensely, even if it's a bit of a slog. It is not a fast game. The developers obviously decided to go full retard realism, which has turned some people off of it, IMO. Since you have to keep an eye out on fuel and ammo (meaning dashing fuel trucks up, or having a rally point guarding a supply depot, etc) it restricts your operations.

My handle on there is MountainSquid, since it uses a different MP set up than straight up steam.

[Flagg]

I have it. Forgot what my handle is, and have yet to play it but looks awesome.

[Stark]

It looks way too retard to be any fun multi. Frankly, once you're bragging about your 300 units it's all over.

And every game that uses the term 'real one tactics' is self-consciously retarded :v

I'm curious how fast it is, though; all the stuff I've seen suggests it's slow and manual with long games, ie boring. Maybe it's different if you're deluding yourself into thinking its 'real military skills' or something.

[Flagg]

I got it thinking it was WiC on a larger scale, but after reading some reviews it sounds like it's alot slower and duller. Which sucks, but I paid mah money so I'm going to try it once I'm done with mass effect.

[CaptHawkeye]

I thought it looked more like RUSE than WiC. I actually liked RUSE and felt it was a fairly clever game. It just wasn't WiC 2 and neither is European Escalation.

I've pretty much given up hope Massive will ever get around to WiC 2 though.

[Stark]

Yeah I think it's more like ruse in how it's played (lonestar should know) only less boardgamey and more grognard BRDM 2bis (73) vs flank penetrating rifle grenade at 98m in the wet stuff.

[Sarevok]

It is made by the same guys as RUSE and based on same engine IIRC.

[Psawhn]

I've got it and I've been nearly addicted to it since the open MP beta. I was thinking of creating a thread on the game, myself, because I figured other guys here would like this game, but I guessed that one of the first few responses would be Stark sneering contemptuously at all fattynerds .

I actually like the pacing in the game and I don't find it slow and boring, and I haven't even tried ranked 1v1 games yet, which I suspect is even more intense.

I also really like the deck system. I was skeptical about it when first reading it but now I appreciate how it forces you to make some careful decisions in what units you actually bring to the battlefield.

[Lonestar]

Yeah I think it's more like ruse in how it's played (lonestar should know) only less boardgamey and more grognard BRDM 2bis (73) vs flank penetrating rifle grenade at 98m in the wet stuff.

I don't know what Ruse is.


But yeah, it's real time tactics vs. basebuilding strategic, and as I said, a slog. It's straight up old style wargame rather than ultra fast moving RTS.

[AniThyng]

My main beef with it is that units still require way too much babysitting in terms of placement and attack strategy, and I spend so much time zoomed out to keep an eye on everyone, I can't meaningfully enjoy the graphics. I'd honestly prefer something like order of war or kohan (though order of war's implementation was poor).

It is pretty fun though to actually see that they made more effort then is usual with regards to 'realism' - atgms go wild when you destroy/surpress the shooter, tanks take surpression and equipment damage etc. Odd that there's no smoke grenades though...?

Hey Stark: I take back any doubts I had re: firaxis xcom remake. It looks like the devs have their priorities all right so far.

[Lonestar]

It is pretty fun though to actually see that they made more effort then is usual with regards to 'realism' - atgms go wild when you destroy/surpress the shooter, tanks take surpression and equipment damage etc. Odd that there's no smoke grenades though...?

.

Or FIRE CONTROL COMPUTER REBOOTING. What a fantastic perk that is for American Tanks.

[AniThyng]

It is pretty fun though to actually see that they made more effort then is usual with regards to 'realism' - atgms go wild when you destroy/surpress the shooter, tanks take surpression and equipment damage etc. Odd that there's no smoke grenades though...?

.

Or FIRE CONTROL COMPUTER REBOOTING. What a fantastic perk that is for American Tanks.

Yeah that's hilarious

I used a bunch of Chieftans for the 2nd or 3rd campaign mission. hilarious that they run out of fuel in minutes just trying to get halfway to the objective.

[Lonestar]

They do have some nice touches, like Russian Mi-24 pilots humming "Ride of the Valkyries".

[Stark]

Hey Stark: I take back any doubts I had re: firaxis xcom remake. It looks like the devs have their priorities all right so far.

Do you have More Information? I have t seen much about it beyond their GI launch thing.

[CaptHawkeye]

I have to be honest since i'm a crazy sim guy I kinda like the sound of a ridiculously huge unit list and logistics/supply management nonsense.

Of course i'm sure that will be fun for about as long as it takes for a couple of guys to figure out all the best unit combinations.

[Stark]

'I made a jeep mesh guys!'

'Sweet! I'll attach fifteen slightly different spreadsheet pages to each one and fun gameplay will just fall out by itself!'

'Wow we are such great developers. Call marketing stat!'

'Dude you said stat! Hahahahahah'

[Lonestar]

I don't think that the French speak that way.

[Sarevok]

I have to be honest since i'm a crazy sim guy I kinda like the sound of a ridiculously huge unit list and logistics/supply management nonsense.

Of course i'm sure that will be fun for about as long as it takes for a couple of guys to figure out all the best unit combinations.

I don't think every game should be "balanced". Real life warfare is not "balanced". Of course some weapons and tactics are going to be overwhelmingly powerful. For example in game terms a tank is going to beat a technical everyday. From a videogame POV people would use technicals because they have no choice rather than spamming cheap units that can overwhelm by superior numbers.

[AniThyng]

I have to be honest since i'm a crazy sim guy I kinda like the sound of a ridiculously huge unit list and logistics/supply management nonsense.

Of course i'm sure that will be fun for about as long as it takes for a couple of guys to figure out all the best unit combinations.

I don't think every game should be "balanced". Real life warfare is not "balanced". Of course some weapons and tactics are going to be overwhelmingly powerful. For example in game terms a tank is going to beat a technical everyday. From a videogame POV people would use technicals because they have no choice rather than spamming cheap units that can overwhelm by superior numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War Depends on the tanks, really. This is still an era before chobham after all...

Appearently though in EE, a souped up T-55 can beat even modern armour thanks to its superior wire guided ATGMs while being more cost effective then unupgraded T-80's.

[CaptHawkeye]

So I got the game on a Steam Sale. I like it overall, I've barely touched the multi and have limited myself almost exclusively to the campaign but it would have been worth picking up off sale. It does remind me of WiC in some ways, but just like I thought, it's got much more in common with RUSE than WiC. It's too bad these guys didn't just copy-paste WiC's Tactical Aid right into the game though. (Pretty funny that they didn't bring back RUSE's same-named off map support mechanics.) It would have fit perfectly especially considering the game totally lacks any off-map stuff of any kind. Nothing turned around a losing battle faster than a triple HAB in the right place. Fuck nukes. Overall i'm happy that these guys actually looked at RUSE and understood what actually made RUSE fun.

Logistics and FOBs are a clever mechanic, and the Iris Zoom technology is still pretty awesome stuff. Seamlessly transitioning from satellite view right down to looking at towns and rolling countryside from ground level is not the stuff of a forgettable game. It was impressive in RUSE and is still impressive here. I look forward to the future use of this game engine.

I <3 games with 10 kinds of M60 Patton. :V

[Stark]

Too bad the combat is super boring degree-of-divergence stuff, I guess. The SP is the epitome of no-AI spend your $100 of units 'properly' to get the biggest number of low-divergence shots to 'win' against the huge scripted puzzle army in each level. I imagine the MP is hilarious since unit prices don't weigh accuracy (or stabilisation) highly enough.

[xthetenth]

The SP can definitely be infuriating and is basically a way to turn wearing your quicksave and quickload buttons into nubs into command stars, but I wouldn't say that accuracy isn't priced highly enough in MP. Usually cheap, accurate stuff has serious drawbacks, like being four times as expensive as T-34-85s and penetrable by them at maximum range. Cheap units with powerful, accurate guns are quite useful but there's a hell of a lot to be said for being able to take a hit or just beating things because you're working the terrain right. The way hits are resolved aren't nearly as important as the way the ranges, aiming speeds and mechanics of the weapons make a very nice interunit dynamic predicated in large part on situational soft counters, rather than rock paper scissors that's determined when you build your army or massive amounts of micro. I like that large scale macro and good positioning determines a lot about combat in this game.

[CaptHawkeye]

Too bad the combat is super boring degree-of-divergence stuff, I guess. The SP is the epitome of no-AI spend your $100 of units 'properly' to get the biggest number of low-divergence shots to 'win' against the huge scripted puzzle army in each level. I imagine the MP is hilarious since unit prices don't weigh accuracy (or stabilisation) highly enough.

The mechanics are over abstracted, and I feel their is a surprising lack of more environmental features that could change things up from the 1-2 combos good comboes of units. Such as night, weather, seasons, terrain deformation, etc. It strikes me as somewhat of a prototype game. As if Eugen systems planned on seeing if it caught on and then doing everything properly in a sequel. It definitely needs more randomizing on every level.

I don't think i'm even going to bother with MP since i'm sure it's already degenerated into the standard "1-2 deck builds beat all other builds" nonsense.

[weemadando]

Yeah, there's some smart stuff in there, but there's also a heap of terrible shit.

I like the idea of supply, but why must I micro it, rather than just say "keep shuttling trucks along this road?"

[Stark]

It reminds me way too much of terrible games like Sudden Strike; it even has the missions where the enemy does nothing/follows scripted attacks unless you do things. Since you're punished for every loss and all that matters is spot and accuracy, the same tactics take you through pretty much all the levels. Doing anything interesting just loses you units or wastes supply.

I was blown away that the units literally only did one thing; they are movable turrets. To-hit might sound interesting to people who enjoy reading about the differences between a Chieftain and a Chieftain mark 2, but it's not an interesting game.

Man the supply thing is so obviously pushing players into a specific way to play I can't believe it got through testing.