Total War: Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai

[weemadando]

...add another subtitle to that if you really want.

I've been having a bit of a play with it. The battle AI seems canny enough to not be completely stupid about artillery and firearms, but I'm yet to really test it. Naval battles are way more interesting now that there's screw driven ships and direct control of gunnery.

Oh yes. Direct control. It's great. Nailing the perfect artillery shot is such a good feeling, a great offset to the tension of the rest of the battle sequences. Battles are also made much more dangerous by off-map support. Navies are more relevant than ever as having gunboats offshore lets you have fire support in battles as well as softening up targets on the strategic map. A well placed barrage will wipe out half an army. It's that devastating - you cannot risk a battle where you are within naval gun range unless they're on your side.

The campaign has a lot of new stuff in it too - railways, modernisation as a metric and population happiness influence. It's feeling like it could be a damn fine campaign as long as when the factions really start going head to head, the AI doesn't fall down.

I do like the 12 turn year though. 3 turns per season and significant seasonal effects.

[CaptHawkeye]

This is really the last stage in history that the Total War style setpiece battles can be done. Once you get beyond the late Industrial era into World War 1 you're entering the territory of modern strategic war where single large battles are just parts of bigger campaigns. I'd be curious to see how CA could adapt the formula, but somehow I doubt it would be feasible.

[Edward Yee]

Do you mean adapting the formula of "hybrid turn-based strategy/real-time tactics" without entirely falling into Paradox grand strategy territory, that is?

[weemadando]

I think you could potentially do WW1, but it'd be way too easy to get stuck doing nothing but shitty battles. You'd have to make sure battles only occurred for major events rather than just for the ongoing stalemate.

[weemadando]

Also, you'd need to revamp the economy - being unable to go wildly into debt during a campaign you must win is disappointing.

[Simon_Jester]

Not much of a gamer, but that would be the real challenge- the Total War games model a 'war of points:' an army occupies a point on the map, other armies occupy points, the places it would like to capture on the map are points. The concept of "behind enemy lines" is nebulous- there are places the enemy dominates and can attack easily, but they don't actually have troops standing on every inch of land, or heavy guns commanding every inch of land.

Get into the 20th century and the wars are fought between clashing lines, which have to be penetrated in order to accomplish anything. It's a very different model- you'd need something like the Rise of Nations border mechanics at the strategic level, or large numbers of pseudo-armies that serve only to block each others' movement until a pivotal battle breaks the line and allows them to advance, sort of the way some hex games work with zones of control.

It's ironic that to cover real total war between industrialized societies, you'd need to add some major new mechanics to the basic Total War format.

[CaptHawkeye]

The thing is, at what point have you changed the basic mechanics so much that it's not Total War anymore?

[Purple]

I wonder if Total War could be adopted to the american civil war.

[Block]

I wonder if Total War could be adopted to the american civil war.

I'd think so since this expansion uses the same era of weaponry.

[weemadando]

American Civil War would be a piece of piss with this expansion.

Doing a whole of North and Central America from 1830 could be an interesting new one. Russia will expand from Alaska and the Tsar shall sit in New York.

*edit* And strategic decisions like "March cross country or go over the isthmus at Panama" could be big game changers.

The railways in FotS are such a game changer (units can use it to move anywhere along the line in one turn) so you could potentially even have Railway company factions to try and bribe, found or take by force in a North American setting . It looks like there's telegraph stations too, but I'm yet to capture or build one to see its relevance.

[Purple]

And the south can be lead to victory over them all? (And yes, I am an European guy that likes the confederacy. But only because they have the cooler flag of the two. No political allegiance owed.)

[Simon_Jester]

The thing is, at what point have you changed the basic mechanics so much that it's not Total War anymore?

It's not the same gameplay. Again, that's the irony- total war "isn't Total War" anymore...

[MKSheppard]

This is really the last stage in history that the Total War style setpiece battles can be done.

I'd argue that Medieval/Rome is the last area in history where the current Total War style mechanics actually work; e.g. the limit of 20 stacks.

Back then, huge battles with 50,000+ or more were kind of rare; so you could get away with the basic mechanics of TW; but once you get into Napoleonics, it really starts to break down, since there were so many huge battles on a consistent and repeated scale.

[CaptHawkeye]

And the south can be lead to victory over them all? (And yes, I am an European guy that likes the confederacy. But only because they have the cooler flag of the two. No political allegiance owed.)

That's not the problem with a Civil War game. The problem with an American Civil War game is that 98% of the battles will be predominantly just infantry. Cavalry fell out of favor by this period for anything other than recon and artillery hit a sort of design dark age.

The defending line will always hold a huge advantage since the Minie Ball was basically the second worst thing to happen to Line Infantry after the machine gun. The only reason Infantry Lines were used at all during the Civil War was because leadership on both sides had been schooled in obsolete Napoleonic strategy. Expect most scenarios to boil down to nothing but attrition between just two playable sides. Hooray American Civil War game?

I mean who knows, Fall of the Samurai seems to work with these problems just fine, but then again it's got more than one playable faction.

[Zanfib]

This is really the last stage in history that the Total War style setpiece battles can be done.

I'd argue that Medieval/Rome is the last area in history where the current Total War style mechanics actually work; e.g. the limit of 20 stacks.

Back then, huge battles with 50,000+ or more were kind of rare; so you could get away with the basic mechanics of TW; but once you get into Napoleonics, it really starts to break down, since there were so many huge battles on a consistent and repeated scale.

Thats more of an hardware limitation than a mechanics limitation though.

[CaptHawkeye]

Back then, huge battles with 50,000+ or more were kind of rare; so you could get away with the basic mechanics of TW; but once you get into Napoleonics, it really starts to break down, since there were so many huge battles on a consistent and repeated scale.

That's the thing. We're ironically going into what "Total War" actually means by this stage in history where war is less about single decisive battles with lots of maneuver, and more about raw attrition. It's not like big important battles didn't happen anymore, but thing was they didn't happen quickly either. If your armies engage another in a "battle" with normal TW mechanics you'll be answering the direct control option 100x a turn. Unless you increase the control scale to a minimum divisional level, at which point you're basically playing Hearts of Iron.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

It looks like there's telegraph stations too, but I'm yet to capture or build one to see its relevance.

The Telegraph stations are the basic building rail-stations are build up from. Rails are a province special resource. And it seems like you can only move instantly from one to another... imagine they have to be connected by your territory too, but eh haven't captured them myself.

Picked the faction that started on the bottom of the far western island...

[weemadando]

I started as Saga (Nagasaki province), took Tsushima and Fukue. Consolidating now.

[Akhlut]

And the south can be lead to victory over them all? (And yes, I am an European guy that likes the confederacy. But only because they have the cooler flag of the two. No political allegiance owed.)

That's not the problem with a Civil War game. The problem with an American Civil War game is that 98% of the battles will be predominantly just infantry. Cavalry fell out of favor by this period for anything other than recon and artillery hit a sort of design dark age.

The defending line will always hold a huge advantage since the Minie Ball was basically the second worst thing to happen to Line Infantry after the machine gun. The only reason Infantry Lines were used at all during the Civil War was because leadership on both sides had been schooled in obsolete Napoleonic strategy. Expect most scenarios to boil down to nothing but attrition between just two playable sides. Hooray American Civil War game?

The American Indians were/are technically sovereign entities with their own interests. If you expand the map to include the whole hemisphere and start in the early 1800s, there are tons of wars of independence in South America, as well as the Argentine civil wars (1814-1876), the Platine War, and a bunch of US adventures in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, among other conflicts.

[AniThyng]

This is possibly the best expansion for a total war game ever, been having lots of fun with it, moreso then vanilla shogun 2.

Ships explode way too easily though. Though just got myself the HMS Warrior, looking forward to testing it out when my 3rd freshly assembled full stack army steams for a forced landing at Tokyo Bay

Cannons could stand to be nerfed somewhat, perhaps made less accurate or perhaps high upkeep to artificially limit their numbers, because as it stands they are pretty devastating, but it is perhaps reflective of the times.

Gaijin marines with breechloaders = murder machines.

[weemadando]

This is possibly the best expansion for a total war game ever, been having lots of fun with it, moreso then vanilla shogun 2.

Ships explode way too easily though. Though just got myself the HMS Warrior, looking forward to testing it out when my 3rd freshly assembled full stack army steams for a forced landing at Tokyo Bay

Cannons could stand to be nerfed somewhat, perhaps made less accurate or perhaps high upkeep to artificially limit their numbers, because as it stands they are pretty devastating, but it is perhaps reflective of the times.

Gaijin marines with breechloaders = murder machines.

I had about 3 battles in a row where the enemy was trying to break a siege.

They had serious formations of veteran infantry and cavalry.

I had a single unit of Parrot Guns, some levy infantry with muskets and some spear levies along with my general and bodyguard.

I also had 3 fleets offshore.

The map for these battles had a big hill in the middle with a notch/saddle and so I deployed RIGHT back in my corner with my Parrot Guns on top of the terrain facing the saddle and the rest of my forces creening the steep ascent to get to them. The only way to get to me without completely exposing yourself was through that saddle, so they tried that. I waited until the bulk of their force was through, then called in Naval bombardment on the saddle and started firing the cannons into the units who were exposed on the slope nearest me.

Only in the first battle when they had their full strength army did they get close enough for my infantry to have to engage.

I think it's just a case in that game, simply because of the devastating lethality of some units if it comes to a battle and you can see your force isn't up to scratch against that particular enemy or you're in poor terrain/weather, then you disengage and cede some ground until terrain or the balance of forces favours you more.

[weemadando]

This is possibly the best expansion for a total war game ever, been having lots of fun with it, moreso then vanilla shogun 2.

Ships explode way too easily though. Though just got myself the HMS Warrior, looking forward to testing it out when my 3rd freshly assembled full stack army steams for a forced landing at Tokyo Bay

Cannons could stand to be nerfed somewhat, perhaps made less accurate or perhaps high upkeep to artificially limit their numbers, because as it stands they are pretty devastating, but it is perhaps reflective of the times.

Gaijin marines with breechloaders = murder machines.

I had about 3 battles in a row where the enemy was trying to break a siege.

They had serious formations of veteran infantry and cavalry.

I had a single unit of Parrot Guns, some levy infantry with muskets and some spear levies along with my general and bodyguard.

I also had 3 fleets offshore.

The map for these battles had a big hill in the middle with a notch/saddle and so I deployed RIGHT back in my corner with my Parrot Guns on top of the terrain facing the saddle and the rest of my forces creening the steep ascent to get to them. The only way to get to me without completely exposing yourself was through that saddle, so they tried that. I waited until the bulk of their force was through, then called in Naval bombardment on the saddle and started firing the cannons into the units who were exposed on the slope nearest me.

Only in the first battle when they had their full strength army did they get close enough for my infantry to have to engage.

I think it's just a case in that game, simply because of the devastating lethality of some units if it comes to a battle and you can see your force isn't up to scratch against that particular enemy or you're in poor terrain/weather, then you disengage and cede some ground until terrain or the balance of forces favours you more.

[AniThyng]

Yeah pretty much - a carefully timed offshore barrage coupled with well placed gun batteries really make all the difference against any army. I haven't tested a proper bombardment with explosive shells yet, it should be amusing.

That being said, when the AI manages to deploy its own cannons in a good position, you suffer just as much, so I think it's a fair cop. My artillery corps is well trained though (thank you, foreign veteran trainer!), so it's not too hard to counterbattery any AI batteries before they can make a difference.

I'm slowly replacing levy infantry in my offensive stacks with line infantry now that I can afford it - the greatest advantage being that Line infantry is fair at melee so it's not so critical to have melee infantry as a backstop. I still keep a few formations of katana and speer samurai though, for those increasingly rare times where the enemy manages to close in without breaking, and because it is kinda fun (and you still need melee troops to force a castles wall, unless I decide to be cruel and just bombard the crap out of the castle. Frankly I think you can already see why WW1 total war might turn out to be rather dull simply because as amusing as it is in shogun, and WW1 would be nothing but artillery duels and bombardment punctuated by futile attempts to break an entenched enemy)

[weemadando]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at before. Quite often it's now too risky to try and win a battle against a superior force with excellent tactics in the real time section.

You have to very carefully choose the time and place of your battles to avoid getting wiped out before you can even engage.

[AniThyng]

The new "realm divide" mechanic makes perfect sense now and is how it should have been in the vanilla game. Basically the Emperor (or the shogun if you're on the other side) declares you to be his vanguard and charges you with unifying japan, and all pro-imperial clans fall into line behind you as staunch allies(no more of that bullshit where within 10 turns even your staunchest ally backstabs you and everyone falls in line behind the shogunate despite how much they themselves previously wanted it as well), while the pro-shogun clans fall in line behind the most powerful pro-shogun clan. It seems also that those clans can still be persuaded to see the way the wind is blowing and switch allegiance if your agents spread enough propoganda in their territories.

The AI uses agents pretty effectively now. The area around Osaka where the fighting is heaviest is a viper's nest of intrigue and murder and counter murder. A promising commoner promoted to Imperial army chief of staff was assassinated and my heir wounded in a duel, agents are running around killing or being killed left and right. A particularly amusing case is my foreign veteran who has been seduced away and back by assorted geisha about 4 times now. If he gets seduced again I'm saying enough is enough and will have him killed Its also a brutal battlefield. There's like 10 of those statues marking herioc victories already there.

My only regret is not being able to hire a certain assassin with a cross scar