StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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SO!

The following is a compellation of conversations from an older thread regarding how to "Fix" 4X space games. It complies a host of recommendations, suggestions and ideas proposed by several of the boreds 4X fans from a number of conversations over the years.
I've taken all of these, as well as some of my own ideas, and complied them into the following outline. A few notations. Many of the ideas included were never fully fleshed out, and many were added as "This might be cool" concepts by various posters.

The over all "Goal" of the outline was, aside from simply fixing the various obvious flaws in most 4X games, to Allow for a great deal of customization in a game, without forcing a player to customize things if they don't wish.

The outline itself breaks down into the following 'Big' topics, which are further subdivided into various categories. Again this includes a lot of ideas, which obviously may not work out in a real game, so feed back is of course welcome.

A final note, I am fully aware that in attempting to “Fix” 4X Games, that the MASSIVE list of suggestions and ideas may simply end up bloating them even more. So I do indeed invite feedback and criticism of the list! ☺



INDEX

*CREATING A NEW GAME
MAP GENERATION
RACE GENERATION
MAKING YOUR NATIONALITY

*THE STAGES
PLANET
SYSTEM
SECTOR
GALACTIC

*POLITICS AND DIPLOMACY
INTERNAL POLITICS
SOCIAL POLICIES
ALIEN DIPLOMACY AND 'HARDNESS'
GALACTIC SENATE

*ECONOMICS
THE ROLE OF MONEY
TRADE AND FRIGHTERS

*SCIENCE
RESEARCH
RESEARCH MISSIONS
EXPLORATION MISSIONS.

*COLONY BUILDING
PLANET GENERATION
SYSTEM GENERATION
BUILDINGS
EXPANSION
SECTOR PLAY
SPACE COLONIES

*MILITARY
STARSHIP TYPES
STARSHIP CREATION
STARSHIP BATTLE
PLANET DEFENSE AND INVASION

*EXTRA IDEAS
OVER POPULATION
NATIVES
RANDOM EVENTS
SPACE MONSTERS

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*CREATING A NEW GAME

MAP GENERATION:

For most 4X games, usually the space ones, maps have been "boring" Mostly randomly generated blobs of stars and planets. In terms of making things 'interesting' games like 'Civilization' has had the most hands on approach to map generation. It was their set up that most people agreed would be best for an 'improved' 4x Space game. A player would be allow to change, aside from standard options:

*Galaxy Shape, (cluster-Spiral-Disc)
*Resource rareness, (number of special resources on a planet)
*Planet rareness, (min/max no of planets per system)
*Difficulty Level, ?
*AI Personality traits, ((See ALIEN POLITICS))
*Space Lanes, (on/off)
*Size of Space Lanes, (if turned on)
*Random Events, ((see EXTRA IDEAS))

STARTING STAGE:
In the interest of allowing a player as much freedom as possible, as well as allowing for faster games, a player can choose to start at any of the four "Stages" that the game progresses at. While this will allow for much increased speed of a game, if a player wishes to start at, say "Galactic" stage, there are certain benefits that a player may not get by skipping.
Conversely, a player could choose to restrict game play by selecting a "Max Stage" that is obtainable. This would allow a player to say, never pass beyond the System or Sector stage if they wished.

RACES:
As one would expect, each race has certain benefits or special abilities. From various bonuses to production, research, military, etc. Also races would have various "special" abilities unique to them, such as a special power, building, ship etc. A player can choose however to customize their race. This would forego the normal "specials" a race starts with, and allows a player to raise or lower certain qualities to customize their race. The amount of "points" you have to play with is standardized, so it does not mater what random alien race you use as a template.

Also, in the interest of allowing for as much freedom in customization. A player would be allowed to pick the "color" of their flag/emblem, the shape/symbol of it, their name, and other "personal touches" a player may wish to instill in their race.

NATIONALITY:
Perhaps the most important and long reaches choices are made here. Since a "Full Game" will take a player all the way from unifying their home planet to Galactic colonization, the set up of their "starting nation" will have long-term consequences. Starting out, a player can choose their country to be:

Democratic Republic
Constitutional Monarchy
Theocracy
Dictatorship
Socialistic

Each of these, as one might expect, give various bonuses and negative aspects. A player is not hidebound to these options however, and can choose to change their government and politics as the game progresses ((see POLITICS))Also, depending on how a player "wins" the Planet stage will dictate other variables placed upon their nation as it enters the next stage. ((See PLANET STAGE))

　
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THE STAGES
PART ONE: PLANET STAGE

The start of the game itself and the stage that had the most new ideas and concepts considered. Early on the question was posed of how choices early on can make a difference late in the game. That question spurred most of the concepts that led to the outline of the "Planet Stage"
The stage itself is one of the most complex in terms of ambition, it will basically be a scaled down version of "civilization" and is almost a separate game in itself.

After setting up your race and nationality in the first steps of the game. You will begin on your starting planet. At this point the rest of the galaxy isn't "really" generated yet. Any other AI's will not start until you leave the first stage, mostly to ensure everyone starts on an equal footing.

You start in control of your "nation" on the planet. Depending on size or hardness, you may play against 1 to 5 other 'nations' each nation is basically a mini colony.

You have factories, cities, research centers and a starting military base. At this stage, factories only help you build more buildings faster, or upgrade existing ones quicker. Research buildings will help research the first set of tech to get you into space. And military bases can produce land sea and air units for defending yourself or conquering others.

The Planet stage will have much more than just the single planet. Once you research certain tech, you will be able to construct small Space Colonies in orbit.(See Colonies for more detail) These will not only help alleviate over population, but are crucial in unlocking tech for further colonization. After you have space colonies, you will be able to research colonizing the other planets in your solar system.
Usually there is at least one "easy" planet that requires only minimal Terraforming to colonize. (Terraforming a planet allows more space to build buildings)

While this is happening, you will be racing against the other nations. They can colonize the same planets you can, and you will be in competition with their own colonies.

The win conditions will look very similar to a standard Civ game.

You can conquer the other nations, getting a "Militaristic" win
You can be elected as 'World Leader' getting a "Diplomatic" win
You can be the first to research 'interstellar travel' getting a "Science" win.
You can become the Dominant Religion earning a "Religious" win

Depending on how you 'win' the planet stage, will dictate what initial bonuses and policies you can adopt when entering the next stage. All of the various 'Wins' end with your nation unifying the planet under a single flag and government. Once you have reached this point you will enter the "System stage"

PART TWO: SYSTEM STAGE

Once you have "conquered" your starting system, unifying all colonies under a single government, the game 'expands' and you can now colonize planets outside of your solar system.

The individual 'nations' present in the first stage, are now all under your control and you can construct new buildings and upgrade existing ones. Likewise, all of the systems colonies are now under your full control as well, along with any space colonies other nations may have produced.

All "ground forces" in the first stage are similar unified, and may now be kept or sold off as needed. Any space ships made in the first stage will also be carried over, but they will needed to be upgraded with your new "interstellar drive" to be able to leave your starting system.

Political control of your starting system moves from having to control each colony one by one, to making decisions that affect all the planets in the system. This bonus carries over to any future systems you colonize. As with all other 'stages' new tech and new option become available under the menus. (example, the "Planetary Policies will change to System wide Policies)

The biggest change that will happen, is that the rest of the galaxy and AI's will start 'moving'. They will all start at the same point as the player, with a single unified Star System (of course the nature of that system will be a mix of pre-programmed aspects of the race, and some randomly generated variables) For the most part the System stage is framed as "The Age of Exploration" Founding new colonies will still be expensive and time consuming, but the colonies founded will go onto become your "Core Worlds". Also you will be able to send out "Research" and "Exploration" missions, which can advance science and chart new worlds ((See RESEARCH))

These will be the worlds that will shape the Cultural, Political and (if a player wishes) Spiritual Core to their Empire. While the 'system' stage itself tends to be one of the shortest, it can have long lasting effects upon how your Empire is viewed. The System Stage is also the earliest that a player can encounter another alien race, and typically those you meet at this point will become either your long-term ally, or hated rival. ((Depending on the size of the galaxy, or the amount of races, a player may not meet another race till the next stage.))

A Player will exit the Stage when they have colonized 15 colonies as long as they are in a minimum of three star systems. Once they 15th planet has been colonized, a pop up will appear and (after a cut scene perhaps) a new menu will become available called "SECTORS"

PART THREE, SECTOR STAGE

'Sectors' are new concepts created to further reduce the need to micro manage your ever-expanding Empire.

Sectors stage is achieved when a player has control of three or more systems with 15 or more planets. The concept of a Sector works along the lines of the rest of the game to expand the notion of "what is your Empire" As you expand, a player should think of their Empire in bigger and bigger terms. From one planet, to a system, to now, a whole region of space or a 'sector'.

A Sector, and all planets inside of it, will act like a large "nation". All planets inside of a sector will share various bonuses. Any ships inside of a sector your control will likewise have various speed and other bonuses added. Trade becomes more profitable as you are trending with "neighbors" whom you all get along with. Governing is also more bored, instead of dictating governments from system to system, you can now dictate all planets with the sector to share a single unified government.

You can of course make exceptions if you choose, and any "Non-Warp" civilizations will continue on unless of course you have chosen to conquer them ((SEE NATIVES)).

A sector is "constructed" by linking together three or more star systems with a minimum of 15 planets and a maximum of 30 planets. Your first Sector is given free once you achieve the requirements. Future sectors have a cost associated with the total worlds and systems inside. (the more systems, the bigger the cost) Once you have your first sector, expansion becomes much faster as you will have more specialized colony bases to choose from.

You will no longer have to build a colony in the original slow bit-by-bit fashion ((See Colonies for more detail)) You can "Buy" additional sector space by once again linking a mix of 3 to 6 systems with 15 planets or more. Of course now your 'colonies' will be simplified mining or research colonies, which are faster to produce and settle. A player will have to still "colonize" at least ONE planet in a system to "claim" it before they can construct the specialize colony modules on other planets or on asteroids or Gas giants. This restriction however is lifted in the Galactic stage.

This stage is also where a player will meet with most of the rest of the other AI races in the game, as well as the earliest that the "Galactic Senate" can be founded. (For detail see "Galactic Politics")Depending on how someone is playing, the Sector stage can be either quick or long. A player does not leave it until they have "purchased" two additional sectors, which will label them as a "Galactic Empire" This means entering the Final stage requires a mini

PART FOUR, GALACTIC STAGE

Upon the "purchase" of the players third sector, the game will go into the final stage.

The Galactic stage is where those that want "BIG" games can really let loose. Like with Systems and Sector, passing into the "Galactic" stage will create a new boundary as it where around your empire. Instead of your sectors being unconnected "bubbles" a player will see a new line encompassing all of their sectors. Game play will change little from the Sector phase, aside from the additional new tech, policies choices, racial bonuses, and access to the "ultimate" ship size, the 'DoomStar'.

One of the big changes will be the scale of "Colonies" and construction projects. Under ship Designs for 'civilian' ships, a new category will appear called "Stellar Constructions" These will be massive construction projects that will have to be placed on Dreadnaught or Doomstar sized ships. ((SEE 'SPACE COLONIES)) The point of these constructions is to basically utilize virtually ANY system. Systems with perhaps only an asteroid belt and no planets, or ones with just a Gas giant without having to have a settled colony in the system. Even "Empty" Systems with just a star and no planets can be used for resources now. Also "Super projects" become available such as a things like a "Ring World" or a "Star Furnace"

Another feature is that you will be able to pick a 'Galactic' form of government. This will be a single unifying government that will oversee your Empire based upon the government you have been using. ((SEE GOVERNMENTS))

Now though out the game, the game play has been moving to avoid massive micromanaging things. Going from controlling planets to systems to sectors, to your whole Empire. In the Galactic stage however, for those crazy players that ENJOY Micromanaging every little detail, the options for all other colonies become available again.

What this means is that, if a player wishes to, they can go back and change policies and settings for individual systems and sectors again. You could have one Sector set under a "Democratic" government and another set to "Socialistic" government. Aside from indulging Micromanagers, this will allow a player to have a chance to explore multiple government options in the Galactic stage and see how they compare to one another.

The Galactic Stage is where most players will begin setting things up to "Win" the game. Most of the 'basic' win conditions are the standard:

Kill everyone else. (Military)
Have everyone "Surrender" to you. (Military)
Be elected Galactic Ruler. (Political)

Other 'Win' conditions that had been discussed, in the interest of keeping things interesting.

A 'Galactic' Colony ship: build a Mega Colony ship to settle another Galaxy (Science/Industrial)
An 'Ascension' win: race evolves or "ascends" to higher plane (or something) (Science/Culture)
An 'Unification' win: Peacefully co-opting all other races into your Empire (Culture/Political)

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POLITICS AND DIPLOMACY

INTERNAL POLITICS

As with the rest of the over all "theme" of customizing your game as much as possible. The 'Political' part of the new revised game will encompass a vast amount of choices and options as well as being able to "grow" with you empire. New research unlocking new bonuses far down the road, also new bonuses and option will become available at each 'stage' of the game.

Depending on the choices you have made in the Planet Stage, you will enter the System stage under one of the following government systems.

Democratic Republic
Constitutional Monarchy
Theocracy
Dictatorship
Socialistic

Depending on how you "Won" the planet stage, your government type will have an additional Suffix added of "Militaristic", "Scientific" or "Diplomatic". So a player may have a "Scientific Dictatorship" or a "Militaristic Constitutional Monarchy". Basically these will give you 'bonuses' on top of the ones you are receiving already from your starting government type. These choices will also dictate how easy/hard it is to go to another form of government.

If you say start off as a Dictatorship, it may be a long time before you could switch to a Democracy. But if you won through the "Diplomatic" method in Planet Stage, than it becomes a bit easier. Players are encouraged to stay with a single government. The longer you are in the same government, the more it "Grows" So your Planet Stage "Democracy" would become at the end of the System stage a "Federation" with more bonuses. And then evolves to a "Galactic Federation" with yet more bonuses. As just an example, you may have something like the following.

Democratic Republic -->Federation--> Galactic Federation
Constitutional Monarchy -->Imperium--> Galactic Empire
Theocracy -->Holy Order-->Galactic Holy Order
Dictatorship -->Dominion-->Galactic Imperium
Socialistic -->Unification-->Galactic Collective

However if you start as one government (say Democracy again) and then choose to switch to a Dictatorship, you will have to wait longer before you can get to the 'next level' of your government, so while you will still, eventually, receive all benefits you take a much larger initial hit in production.

Also, as mentioned previously when a player enters the Galactic stage, they can choose to change the governments of smaller components if they wish. A limiting factor to his would of course be size. You could set a Sector to a "Federation" government, but not a "Galactic Federation" likewise a planet or a system could be set to "Democratic Republic" but not be set to "Federation"

SOCIAL POLICIES

Just because you a brutal Dictatorship, doesn't mean you have to be "Evil"

Social Policies are a set of bonuses that, once again, change from stage to stage. While your over all government allows you to dictate how you run your Empire, your social policies allow you control over how your "citizens" are managed. Certain Policies will be available to all forms of government, but of course others are only available to specific types ((Universal Suffrage for instance may only be available to Democratic, Socialistic and Constitutional Monarchies))

As with the governments, your social policies "grow" over time from stage to stage.

ALIEN DIPLOMACY PART-A

Interaction with the other AI's is something that has been an issue from the start of 4X Games. Mostly due to suicidal AI's or ones that will randomly stab you in the back no matter how long you maintain peace with them. Something like an AI is hard to speculate exactly how it would behave, however in the various discussions some of the primary things that an Ai should "respond" to would include:

*Overall Industrial Production: Having a 'weak' military shouldn't hurt you if the AI knows you can make a dozen 'DoomStars' in just a few turns.
*Overall Economy: Similar to industrial might, having a huge economy with lots of money.
*Political Policies: Basically weather your polices are similar to there’s or not
*The 'Fail' Counter: A system for an AI to "count" how many times it looses an engagement with the Player. The more it fails, the less willing it becomes to attack the player.
*Economic Loss: If an AI has just lost a huge fleet that constitutes a large part of its industrial base, it will be less likely to attack.
*Friendship points: A concept only briefly discussed, it was basically considered that, the longer you maintain a "friendship" with an AI, the more "points" you build up. If you go to war, the points reset. Basically the higher the points, the less likely an AI is to go to war randomly against you.

By taking into account these factors it was hoped by those discussing that it would reduce the level of constant attacks by weak AI's as well as safe guarding alliances and friendships. In terms of interacting with AI's directly the options discussed came down to the following.

*Non-aggression pact: Basic "we wont attack you if you don't attack us" an AI would have to break this pact BEFORE declaring war on other player.
*Research Treaty: Increases research by a % of Industrial output and income.
*Open Borders: Instead of the standard "being allowed to move units through an AI's area" Open borders was discussed as having a much larger effect. In any modern or future setting, information flows freely. Certain things you would expect to automatically find out about from a friendly AI. Once Open Borders is declared, you will automatically know the "map" of a friendly AI as well as their Industrial Power and Economic strength.
*Trade Treaty: After Open Borders is declared, you can then form a trade agreement where you can buy/sell resources or cultural artifacts ((SEE CULTURE))
*Exchange Tech: Sub menus, Exchange tech for: Money, Other tech, threats, etc
*Give Gift: Money-Tech-Planet/System-Unit
*Declare War on/Declare Peace with:
*Alliances: A full Alliance would offer several benefits. Those in it would share research as well as much higher trade agreements. You can research one thing twice as fast, or two items and share in the discovery.

Another option briefly discussed was on "giving" a unit to another AI. A concept that was floated was, instead of just "giving" an AI a starship, or even a fleet, but 'selling it instead. This gives a Player a new path and a new dynamic in the game. If your ships our superior, you could become an arms merchant, building ships and selling them to smaller nations. Or you could build cheap ones to sell to smaller nations etc.

ALIEN DIPLOMACY

Another aspect discussed concerning AI's was adding more 'Random' components to how they behave.

In past games, a certain race or nation ALWAYS acted a certain way. Just as in Civ games India is always peaceful, America expands fast and Germany is always a dick, in most Space-Civ games the generic 'brain' aliens were always smart and peaceful, the generic 'robot' aliens were always genocidal and wanted to kill everyone and so forth.

A concept for adding variety into different races was considered so that each new game, the interaction might be fresh and different. An aliens culture might preclude it to having certain types of pre-set up Diplomacy and governments. They might act similar from game to game, but the politics that governs them could be very different. Certain generic aliens may still always follow certain goals, but their behavior would at least be different from game to game.

　
ALIEN 'HARDNESS'

Something that has always been troubling is finding the perfect balance of a challenging AI,

that does not slip into the "cheating curb stomp" path.

Most 4X Games of the past have made the AI "Harder" just by allowing it to "cheat" usually by making units cheaper or letting it research tech faster etc. "Hardness" level was ONE thing that no one seemed to have a consensus in terms of how to fix, and should a new 4X game be re-made, is something still open for discussion.

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ECONOMICS


THE ROLE OF MONEY:

In many Civ and 4X games, money tends to end up being not very important, especially late in the game. Normally things don't really 'cost' anything, you tell a city or planet to build something, wait a while, and then magically it is constructed. Money is used only as a sort of "magic wand" that can instantly construct certain items.

An idea that was discussed, that may or may not make the game more interesting, was simply paying for things up front. If you wish to make a new Dreadnaught, you have to pay the "cost" of that ship before construction begins. So for buildings, upgrades and of course new ships, you first must have the available cash on hand before the item can be built. this concept was mostly imagined to make money more "important" in the game, and a resource to take better care of. Aside from "money" purchasing items also requires "minerals". Now of course like a real nation a player does not HAVE to pay all at once. The bigger % an item/ship is purchased with, the quicker it is built. So an item purchased with all money and minerals will take the much shorter to complete than say an item purchased at 50% of the actual cost.


TRADE AND FRIEGHTERS

In virtually all Civ and 4X games, there is some NPC unit for moving goods, food, money, etc to another colony or AI.

In the original discussion, there were two types of "freighters" discussed. One would have them as basically "non existent" units that would be called into existence whenever you wanted to move goods or people from A to B. The other option was having to build "real" freighters and trade ships that would then be used when a new trade route is established.

In terms of what Freighters would do, the primary use of them would be moving resources between planets. The three main "resources" would be Minerals, Food and 'Trade Goods' ((basically consumer goods))

The first two items are needed for balancing a Planets Economy. A Planet may use say "200 Minerals' but be producing only 20 minerals. So each turn you would need to ship 180 minerals to the planet or it's production and economy slows. Likewise a planet would need extra food sent to it if it is not producing enough. Also those resources can be sold or traded to AI's as well. A Player can trade one resource for another, or sell one resource for money.

Trade Goods are as an aspect of "Culture" by Cultural/Happiness buildings. Shipping these items to a colony you control can help raise happiness, or again they can be sold off to an AI. Trade Goods from an AI can also help to raise Happiness (the idea being getting items that are alien and aren't produced by your people makes them rare/sought after)

The idea of making trade ships "real" or not was one left open for discussion.
Real ships would add complexity and be something you would have to manage each time you make a new trade route. They would have to also be defended from pirates or Enemy AI's
"Non Real" ships would basically automate the process, but offer less realism and control.

　
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SCIENCE:[/b]

Of the various forms of "tech" in the 4X games, they are usually either a "tech tree" in which you research techs one at a time, and will end up with all tech by the end of the game; or a "randomized" research pool. Where you research different parts of tech, such as weapons, economics, energy, etc and get tech based on the level being researched. In the original discussion, it was widely agreed that the old system from "Master of Orion-1" was one of the best and simplest.

A player begins by allocating funds into different research fields such as "Propulsion, Energy, Economics, Civic, Robotics," etc. Each field would have, say 3 to 5 individual Techs you have the chance of researching. The more funds in a field, the faster the research. Also there may be bonuses or other things that so instead of 1 or 2 of a certain tech level, you may get 3 or 4.

All tech in the game would have two tags, "Civic" and "Military". A player can focus on one, or the other, or pic to research a balance of them. This basically is another way a player can play a game suited to his or her own personal tastes. Weather they want to militaristic, or more peaceful.

The nature of the tech would be a gradual improvement on existing systems, and every so often, you would come across some 'big' new tech. So your techs would be as an example "Industrial tech" or "Environmental tech" +10% +15% +20% etc.

One benefit to this sort of set up, is that it does not matter (much) if you don't get a tech. If you miss "Farming +20%" for instance, you may get later on "Farming +40" or +45.The original game went to "level 20" with a max of +100% to bonus. In a re-imagined game, it would be easy to extend the tech upgrades out for much longer. Obviously there would be many other techs for weapons, happiness, research etc.

Also certain tech a player will automatically get when they reach a new Stage. The different ship sizes for instances become available with each new stage reached. So while certain tech a player may get one game and not another game, the "important" tech. Ship hulls, Starbases, Colony Pods, and other "infrastructure" tech, will always be available.

RESEARCH MISSIONS:

As mentioned earlier, tech comes in "Civic" and "Military.

Research missions are one way a player can have more control about picking upcoming tech. As will be explained later in "Starship Classes" a player can designate a ship as a "Research Ship" and then dictate if it is a "Civilian" or "Military" research ship. When a player has built a certain number, they can be sent on a "Research Mission".

When the mission returns, (after a randomly set amount of time) a player has a choice of picking an upcoming tech based on the type of mission. So, if there is an upcoming military tech a player REALLY wants, they can send out a large Military Research Mission to be able to know for sure they can get it.

Research missions as they were originally discussed, can be used also for triggering 'random events' and other interesting aspects of the game. A research mission could make contact with an AI that you may not be able to physically get to for some time. Or perhaps come across "Ancient Ruins" that provide a free tech you may have missed earlier.


EXPLORATION MISSIONS.

Similar to Research Missions, Exploration Missions take place when you construct a ship and designate it as "Explorer" for Civilians or "Reconnaissance" for Military.

These missions were discussed to allow for more in-depth exploring of planets and space oddities to enhance a "Space Opera" feel to a game. Typically, when you send a ship to a system, you get a very basic "map" back. It will show how much usable land a planet has and what type of environment it has, and that is about it.

There are however many other special resources or bonuses, or sometimes negative random bits (Aggressive native wildlife) of a planet however that a player won't discover till they settle a colony on the planet.

Other features like "natural Wonders" or "Primitive Natives ((SEE RANDOM EVENTS)) a Civilian Exploration Mission however is able to uncover all of these items. Early on, when a player is building large colonies, sending out such missions can be very important in terms of knowing exactly what is on a planet before settling, or picking one planet over another. The Military version of these "Reconnaissance Mission" is also important. Normally a player will not get a chance to know what are "inside" an enemy ship till two fleets attack one another. A Recon ship however can 'scan' enemy ships from outside of battle and from a safe distance. Obviously they have the chance of being discovered and attacked, but such ships can be very small and inexpensive.

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COLONY BUILDING

DISCLAIMER: For Parts ONE Through , are all taking place in "Planet" to "System" stages. Once you get to the "sector" stage, you have the choice of constructing "simplified" colonies that will not require the same micro managing early ones do.

PART ONE A, PLANET GENERATION

To start with, the planets in our re-imagined game will try and have a much wider variety, both to break up monotony and add a bit of realism and variation. For planet generation there are three creation factors that were discussed:

"Size" "Usability" and "Bonuses"

Sizes can range from "Tiny" "Small" "Med" "Large" "Huge" for rocky planets (they’re of course other classifications for other types of colonies later on.) The larger the planet, the more squares it can possibly have. As a pure example, lets say a "med" planet has 6x12 squares or 72 spots for buildings.

The "Usability" factor dictates how MUCH of the world is viable. For sake of uniformity, lets say there are 5 "usability" options ranging from 20% to 100%. A "Perfect" at 100% world can use the full 72 spots of a med planet. But a "poor" or 20% med world would use 0nly 14 slots.

Bonuses are just that, extra resource bonuses for a planet. The exact types and % of bonuses don't really need to be done at this time, but basically they can be things like "Extra minerals/Science/farming/etc" Or occasionally "Ancient Ruins" which are basically 'goodie huts' and can be either harvested for free tech, ore preserved for ongoing Art/Culture bonuses/. Other bonuses could be things such as "Natural Wonders" or negative things like "Hostile Animal Life"

PART ONE B, SYSTEM GENERATION

The system itself will be more "basic" as generated.
Any system can have up to ten "features" inside of it. These include:

*Rocky planets, these are you standard 'earth sized' planets and can be colonized first and terraformed into "Earth-like" planets.
*Gas planets, these can range from Neptune sized to Jupiter sized worlds. Gas planets usually have large amounts of moons, which can become mining colonies. Occasionally they may have a 'moon' large enough to colonize.
*Ice planets,
*Asteroid belts, early on small mining bases can be founded on an asteroid belt to produce minerals. In the later game these can be upgraded into large manufacturing bases.
*Empty any system "can" have up to 10 features, but typically will be generated along 'small'-'med'-'large' systems with 1-3, 3-6, 6-10, features respectively.

A starting system, by virtue of wanting to give a player a "head start" Will always have at least 1 Gas Giant, 1 Asteroid belt, and 3 Rocky planets aside from the starting world. This will ensure they always have enough places to expand to get a good footing as well as move beyond the planet stage (unless starting in system stage)

PART TWO: BUILDINGS[/b]

With any colony there are going to be a LOT of buildings and upgrades. Typically all buildings will fall into one of the following types.

Housing
Farming
Culture/Art
Economy
Science
Industry
Mining
Military

The use of each building type is rather straightforward. There will no doubt be different versions of these, some highly specialized, some general and of course you can "upgrade" your buildings as new tech comes out making them more efficient.

Every new colony a player founds will start with the "Colony Center" a 2x2 structure that gives Industry, Science, Farming, Culture, Housing and Economy all in a single block.

This ensures that starting on a new world your settlers can get going quickly. This of course can be upgraded over time with new tech.

*"Housing" this is basically your generic "cities" where people live and are built to increase population. Now since no 'real' city JUST creates housing, every cityscape will put out a 'small' amount of Culture (Happiness), Science and Economy to help the colony. Now while you can keep building these city buildings, eventually you'll need specialized buildings to sustain them. A final note, because of how much goes on in them, I wonder if people think they should be larger, one "city" taking up 2 3 or even 4 spaces. After all, a "city" should hardly be the same size as a factory or farm.

*"Farming" the basic "food" resource for the game. As one would expect, you will need food to sustain your population or it will result in starvation. Extra food is automatically sent off planet via "freighters" ((See more under Economy))

*"Culture/Art" The name for this is changeable, it is your basic "Happiness" function. These buildings increase moral, keep people happy, and produce "Culture" which protects your borders from spies and is used in various diplomatic aspects ((see Diplomacy)). Culture buildings also occasionally produce "Great Art" which can be sold off to other AI's for large amounts of money, or put into Museum for increased happiness on a specific colony.

*Economy The generic 'money' buildings. Personally I'd like 'economy' to do more in the game they just raw money to hurry production. Wealth should be tied to prosperity in general and should have some factor in happiness as well. If a planet is making money = more happy. Loosing money = less happy.

*"Science" The basic "research" buildings. There should be some distinction between "research" buildings and "education" All schools and such, one would think would take place in "Cities". Research buildings aside from producing research points are also needed to utilize "Ancient Artifacts" to get free tech and other bonuses.

*"Industry" The generic "Making things" buildings. This is where all production happens, including other buildings. The more factories you have, the faster buildings are constructed or upgraded on a colony. Of course, industry uses "Minerals" and produces "pollution", if there are not enough minerals, production slows. Pollution in this version was discussed as being both a "decrease happiness" factor as well as decrease farming output (polluted land = bad farming)

*"Mining" Basically all things need 'Minerals' for production. All the money in the world can't make a ship if you have run out of "Supertonium" or whatever. Basically minerals are needed to make things, if you don't have "enough" production drops. Military the last building, aside from housing, is probably the most complicated. A Military base is where all Defensive buildings will go. A basic base will give you "slots" that you can fill with various defensive things to fight off invaders. As you expand, you can upgrade your bases with additional slots. Military bases will start off simple, but will become very expensive to maintain. A planet should only ever need maybe two or three of these on the whole planet.

"EXPANSION"

Building new buildings and expanding can be done basically "as fast as you can afford" Each new building takes resources and money. Early on, you'll build slowly since you won't have much of either. You may be able to only afford one, maybe two buildings to be constructed at a time. As your Empire expands, you can pay for the materials for construction much quicker. A 'Colony' founded late in the game (if a player wished) could have its whole infrastructure constructed over just a few years instead of one building at a time.

"SECTOR PLAY"

The early game could be thought of as "The age Exploration" Each world you colonize will become it's own independent nation. You are expanding early on for the thrill of exploration as well as simple resource gathering. Your new worlds become "copies" of your original, with fully developed cities, cultures, art, governments etc. However as your empire grows, and as it becomes easier to mine minerals and build industry, you will no longer need to build whole colonies just to get a few resources. Once you hit "Sector" stage, several new types of colony ships become open to build. The options Include:

"Mining"
"Military"
"Industry"
"Industry/Mining" (colony with 50/50 buildings)
"Science"
"Economy"
"Farming"

Each of these options can be made through a specialized colony module you would design a ship with. When the ship reaches its destination, it will produce a highly specialized 'colony'. A colony founded by one of these will no longer have a large grid of small slots for you to build everything, but instead will automatically construct facilities to maximize production of the type of resource you want. A colony like this needs only a minimal population and will grow fast.

While it produces ONLY one resource, it can produce that in far greater amounts then a normal colony could achieve. This will allow a far more streamlined interface in mid to late game, so that if you eventually have a hundred planets or more, you are not having to manage construction of buildings on every single one. You can simply put down one of these 'pre programmed' colony pods, and let it go.

Upgrades will happen automatically as new tech comes out.

SPACE COLONIES.

While several 'Space Civ' games have allowed the production of space stations, usually they are either for making ships, or for planetary defense. While our re-imagined game will of course have these options, we will be introducing a new aspect into it. The Space 'Colony'

Space Colonies will basically become "Mini" colonies. They offer you the chance to "stack" more production and population on an existing planet. The population and production from a Space colony would contribute to the over all income of the colony itself. Space colonies could also be used to "populate" dead worlds where a colony could normally go. Colonies would not receive any bonuses from a planet, but nor would they receive any penalties. Basically Space colonies, like a normal one, would have "slots" to build things but on a very limited level.

The first stage space colony for instance may have, say, just three slots with one of those automatically filled with a "Cityscape" moduol. Starting early on in the Planet stage, you will be able to research the tech needed to build small colonies for, initially, housing people and doing research.

In the planet phase these will basically be a Bernal Sphere (tiny station) and a Stanford torus (small station).

In the system stage you can construct O'Neil cylinders (med colony stations) as well as the first military stations (small-med sizes) for defending your planets, as the system stage is the first stage you could be attacked by other AI's or Space Pirates.

In the Sector stage you will begin to build 'really' big structures such as a "Halo" These will be constructed through the course of several 'colony' ships and can act as mini colonies, producing all a normal colonies goods except being able to mine minerals. "Halo" colonies can become very useful for expanding population or building commercial or social areas, but they can be very expensive to maintain and keep supplied.

In the galactic stage a player will get to "Mega" constructions, the largest of which is a full sized "ring world' that could take perhaps a hundred turns or more To construct and would require whole planets to be harvested for materials.

((Ran Out Of Space))

PART TWO
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MILITARY

STARSHIP CREATION PART-A

BUILDING SHIPS

Building your own starship has always been a creative way of keeping the 4X game interesting and allowing it to be flexible with build types and strategies. Of course after a point, when a game becomes "BIG" one would expect to have to not sit and build every last new ship design. (although you could if you warned)

In the first three stages of game play, Planet, System and Sector, A player would make each ship one at a time. You would go to a "design" screen, select the size then the role (military or civilian) and then the secondary designation (Missile, Carrier, Beam, etc). And then design your ship. The exact method for designing could be left up in the air. During the original discussion, most proffered either the design set up from Master of Orion-II (with some aspects of three) or the design set up from Galactic Civilization.
Regardless of just how you make the ships, once you get to the "Galactic" stage, you can choose to design "Fleets" of ships.

You can designate the "size" of the fleet, how many ships and what size ships, and then what 'Type' of ships in it. The AI would then automatically design it's own ships, or it would draw upon pre-existing ship plans you have loaded.

So if you are at war, and need new fleets, instead of telling 20 planets one at a time to build a bunch of ships. You can simply 'design' a fleet type to build and the Computer will pick the largest 20 planets not doing anything to begin making the ships for that fleet. Obviously there would need to be more to it, but the concept of having to only design 'fleets' instead of individual ships was one often suggested.

STARSHIP CREATION PART-B

SIZES AND POINTS

In the Discussion of how to "fix" aspects of a 4X Game, of the big discussions was how to limit fleet sizes, as well as introducing mechanics to allow for more creativity. One of the ideas suggested revolves around a "point system". It was also generally agreed upon that a good set up for different classifications was to have six ship types plus one "super class" ship.

Each ship size has a corresponding "point" value as well as the over 'space' you can pack into a ship. For the sake of example, lets us the following layout.

Ship Class - Point Value - Size
Shuttle, 001, 050,
Corvette, 002, 100,
Destroyer, 004, 200,
Cruiser, 008, 400,
Battle Ship, 016, 800,
Dreadnaught, 032, 1600,
Doom Star, 128, 4800,

In the past, most space games restricted how many ships you could put in, but the 'limit' was usually on the number of ships, leading to everyone maxing out their fleets with nothing but "super dreadnaughts" or what not...

The reason for a point system, was to make the limiting factor "Points" instead of ships. So y9ou could have far more, or far fewer ships in a "Fleet" depending on what size or what point value you had. If we use an arbitrary 'Max Fleet' value of 128, then the amount of ships you can have appear like this:

128-Shuttles,
064-Corvettes,
032-Destroyers,
016-Cruisers,
008-Battle Ships,
004-Dreadnaughts,
001-Doom Stars,

The advantage of the point system starts to come into play when, lets say you can make a "Cruiser" that is more powerful than say a Dreadnaught that the AI is running around with, why spend the extra resources making your own Dreadnaughts?

Splitting forces into several groups can allow you to move forces more quickly, as well as attack from several angles. Also in a game where there are "splash damage" weapons, having all your ships in one giant Armada may not be a good idea.

Another concept that was discussed is adding in "Reinforcements." Lets say you have a fleet of well over 500 "points" of ships. But in battle you can only field half of that, and perhaps you’re attacking a heavily fortified planet with lots of defense stations.

You begin to loose your ships, however as they are lost, you can call for additional ships. Basically calling in ships based on the free points available. This could be useful in a "siege" situation or a surprise attack. Lets say you jump in, and your initial forces are all wiped out by some weapon or ship you didn't know the enemy had.

Now you have the option of NOT Dedicating all your forces at once. You can still travel around with a giant fleet of doom (which has it's advantages) without worrying about having to use ALL the ships in every single encounter.

Now of course the "128" number is completely arbitrary. We could have the max amount of points in a battle at two or even three times that. ((Obviously you have to consider not making it TOO large to take game processing into consideration, since obviously a Point Cap of say 576, would mean a possible battle of 576 teeny tiny ships ))

STARSHIP TYPES PART-A

In keeping with the "growing with the game" theme, you will have access to ship types only as you reach the next stage in the game.

PLANET STAGE
*Shuttle: (size 50) The smallest ship, you are able to build it in the planet phase although it is basically useless for military application past the planet phase. Best used as either a "Probe" to spy on other races later on, or for doing civilian research missions ((See RESEARCH))
*Corvette: (size 100) This ship is the biggest ship you can make in the "Planet" stage and is good for starting military. Later on its small size is best suited as a 'Police ship' for systems with pirates ((see Pirates/Crime))

SYSTEM STAGE
*Destroyer: (size 200) You are able to build this ship once you enter the "System" stage and it will be a mainstay of your forces.
*Cruiser: (size 400) The biggest ship buildable in the "System" stage. A Cruiser 'Chasse' is the smallest sized ship that can hold all of the new colony modules that will become available upon entering the "Sector" stage

SECTOR STAGE
*Battle Ship: (size 800)
*Dreadnaught: (size 1600)

GALACTIC STAGE
*Doom Star: (size 6400) Introduced originally in Master of Orion-II, it was supposed to be the 'ultimate' ship of that game. However for something described as a "mobile planetoid" it was just a bit bigger than the previous starship type.

One of the things discussed in the original thread was the idea that "Super" ships should be both super, and rare. Something done more as a show of force or raw industrial might. As such, the concept of a Doom Star/Battle Moon is firstly to be Four times the size of the previous ship class, giving it a truly massive amount of space to live up to it's hype. Doom Stars would be able to take huge amounts of damage and pose a significant threat if more than one were fielded in a single battle. Naturally such a massive ship should have a limiting cost.

Several limits were discussed, but the one that made the most sense was limiting by Sectors. Basically, due to the imagined massive upkeep and maintenance a "Doom Star" would require, a player can build ONLY two Doom Stars per Sector. So a Player with four sectors can field a max of just eight such ships.

STARSHIP TYPES PART-B

After the different sizes, a new concept discussed was that of having "Civilian" ships vs. "Military" ships.

Notating a ship as one or the other would give various advantages and bonuses depending on its role. The role of a ship would be dictated by various 'Modules' installed, such as Colony, Freight, Science and other such specialized modules.

Adding one of these to a ship would allow to do various specialized tasks. The roles discussed included the following:

*Freighter: A Civilian ship that you put a freighter module on, would become a trade ship that can ship goods or resources to a friendly AI or to another. A Military ship would become a military transport, used for moving invasion forces to a planet.
*Colony: A civilian colony module would be one of several types for forming a new colony depending on what type you wanted. A Military colony module would form an all military "fortress world" these are vary expensive, but very hard to eliminate.
*Science: As discussed in "Research" a ship with a research module can go on a Research mission. Military would get military tech, and civilian would get civilian tech.
*Explore: As discussed in "Research" These ships would be used to explore your galaxy in far greater detail than normal. Civilian ships would go on in-depth exploration of planets for special bonuses or treasures. While military ships can go on spy missions or monitor enemy fleet movements.

GUNS:

A question that was raised during the original discussion concerned the attack power of weapons. The question was "Why does a Laser gun on a tiny scout do the same damage as a Laser gun on a Dreadnaught?" This discussion led to the top of "Mounts" for weapons as well as Power and energy systems.

The discussion regarding weapons was refined to two overall concepts.
The larger the gun, the more power a gun uses.
The more power put into a gun the more damage it can do.

Basically when creating a starship, you have to balance first the "Mount" of a gun. The bigger the mount, the more damage. 'Mounts' would run along the following scale:

*Point Defense: (Quickest cool down, lowest damage, targets Fighters and Missiles only)
*Very Light
*Light
*Med
*Heavy
*Very Heavy
*Spinal Mount: (can fire only forward, slowest but has longer range and damage than anything else)

Basically the large the mount, the more damage and more size and power it takes. A small ship could hold a lot of 'light' laser guns, but a heavy 'Battleship sized' gun it could hold only one or two. Also, the larger the mount, the more power it uses. A small ship with a "Heavy" mount, would have to have a very large reactor to fire at full strength. Likewise a "Light" mount gun connected to a very powerful reactor will do more damage than a "Light" mount connected to a smaller reactor.

Civilian ships could be armed, but could be armed only with "PD" to "Med" weapons.

STARSHIP BATTLE

One thing that was agreed upon in the original discussion was that a "turn based" battle system was a pretty poor method of game play for battle. Of the several styles discussed, the consensus came down to a "scaled down" version of a full 3D Real Time battle system. Something similar to a "Scaled down" version of 'Homeworld' game play. Being able to control ships in real time, assign ships into groups or fleets, issuing different orders to different groups, as well as being able to "scan" and get Intel on enemy forces.

Some features that were considered adding to game play.
"Layers" Basically you can click on a ship and it will show the Min and Max firing ranges of the weapons on the ship. This was something often wanted for space games so you know exactly how close to get to an enemy to be able to hit them. One could select either a single ship in the fleet, or the whole fleet to show the combined Min-Max ranges of weapons. Other 'layers' could be things such as Sensor rangers.

Another aspect was "scanning" ships.
Obviously in the heat of battle, someone may not have time to look at a breakdown of every little feature of an enemy ship. If you have a 'Recon Ship' in your fleet you can scan the ships and after the battle be able to look at every aspect of a ship, from it's tech, to weapons materials etc. All "Scanned" ships are saved to a database you can access in the game. Also you can scan ships outside of battle using "Recon Ships" which is useful for gauging the threat level of an enemy force before combat.

PLANET DEFENSE/INVASION

PLANETARY DEFENSE PART-A,

A combination of what was available in MoO2 and some updates.

The concept of "auto upgrading" systems is immensely convenient for defense, especially for something BIG like a Star Fortress. However when it comes to what you could build, in MOO2 you could only ever build one of each type of defense. One missile launcher, one fighter bay, one ground battery and one battle station. In our re-imagining, colonies would use "Military Bases" for planetary defense structures. A military base once constructed will have "slots" you can put in defensive structures. For ground defense, you would have options such as:

Infantry (basic foot soldier)
Heavy Infantry (Exo-suites)
Armored (tanks/mechs/Anti-Air/Anti-Mech)
Air Force (Flying against ground)
Space Interceptors (flying against ground and space)
Ground Batteries (heavy anti-ship guns)
Missile Launchers (anti-ship missiles)

The first four items are defense purely against an invasion force. The last three are defense against ships in orbit. Military bases as envisioned, would have a much more flexible set up. As with many other components, your bases can "Grow" through each stage. Being upgraded to more expensive bases with more room for defensive items. As an example:

PLANET STAGE: Two Slots
SYSTEM: Three Slots
Sector: Four Slots
Galactic: Five Slots

Basically, early on there is less to fear from a large-scale invasion from another AI, so you defense needs is not as high. Three bases per planet, should be more than enough to last through the whole game ((assuming a player upgrades them)) for most planets under attack. That would give via each stage 6-9-12 and 15 open slots for defensive items. Obviously, for a planet that may be in a "high combat" area, a player may choose to make a dedicated military colony with a great deal of Military bases, turning a colony into a "fortress world"


PLANETARY DEFENSE PART-B,

On the surface of a planet, Military basses can guard against invading ships. In space however, it will be a "Star Fortress" that will be used to fight off ships. Star Bases have been a feature of many space-civ games, however their usefulness has always been somewhat lacking. Mostly it is due to, once again, being restricted on how many you can build at a time/When discussing ways to fix this, it was generally agreed that the 4X game "Ascension" had one of the best and most flexible set ups for building in space around a planet, and much of that was adapted for the "fix" When selecting a colony, you have the option to "zoom out" from the planets surface into orbit. There you are presented with a ring of open "slots" around the planet. in each 'Orbital Slot' you would be able to build:

*Military Starbase: These are basically space based weapon platforms.
Similar to star bases from previous games. They can be upgraded to four different sizes through ought the game in accordance with moving to each stage. The "size" of each base is 150% of what is the largest sized ship for that stage. So a base at System stage would be 1.5 times the size of a Cruiser. And then when you enter Sector stage, it could be upgraded to 1.5 times the size of a Dreadnaught.

*Civilian Starbase: These are "Space Colonies" that can increase production and economic bonuses for a planet as well as help alleviate over population on a planet.
They are undefended and can be destroyed if an attacker successfully invades.

*Spacedocks: The factories where starships are built, repaired, and upgraded.
Like military bases, they can be upgraded through each stage of game play. A Spacedock will have to be upgraded to build ships from a specific stage. So you would need a Spacedock upgraded to the "sector" sized dock in order to build sector stage ships.
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EXTRAS AND RANDOM EVENTS.

There were a number of features discussed that were discussed only briefly or in terms of "wouldn't it be cool if"

These are features, which may or may not be wanted in a full game, or require more discussion for exactly what benefits they would add.

OVERPOPULATION

One concept briefly discussed was population and population controls. In real if, nations don't magically stop having babies when you reach a certain population.

As a planet is Terraformed to "better" conditions and more tech comes out, the population that planet can support goes up and up. But if the population goes beyond it's support, the planet becomes "Over populated". An over populated planet would of course have problems, from lower production, more pollution, and needed resources from off planet to avoid starvation.

One would imagination there would be tech to reduce population growth after a certain point just as how there is obviously tech to increase population growth on new colonies.

Political and Social aspects would also be able to curb Over Population.

IMMAGRATION

In several Galactic Civ games, there is the option to send citizens from one colony to another. This is mostly used in razing the population of new colonies quickly by sending people from colonies already at population max.

One of the discussion involved population and immigration to new words. One idea was for immigration to happen automatically. The population of a world would continue to grow up to a point, if a new colony is founded the computer would begin to automatically send colonists from what it considered "Over populated" worlds to a new colony.

Other option discussed where to control the types of plates as well as species you might have.

A player may have a menu option along the lines of:
"Send "race A - to world with more than X population of race B" If you had a planet with a population you wished to mix or even "take over" with another species.

Or if you had a species that did well on a certain type of world, you could say:
Send "race A to X type of world" etc.

Or you could maybe adjust the settings of a world to say:
"Accept immigration only from X type worlds or X Species"

NATIVES:

In a huge Galaxy, it seems silly to have the only sapient life to only be other AI's you play against. A Galaxy should be teaming with other species at different steps in civilization.

In past 4X games "Native Species" have been put in as a game mechanic, but typically they never really added much to a game. In Moo2 and in Moo3, they were basically "extra population" if you founded a colony on a planet with a 'pre-warp' species, you got a boost in population as you assimilated them but that was it.

Something discussed was to have the computer randomly generate dozens of randomly created species along a "Tech Scale" following an analog of our own tech advancement:

Stone Age ->Bronze -->Classical ->Enlightenment ->Industrial ->Early Electrical ->Information Age

The idea was for all "pre warp" species to exist as tiny nations, similar to "City States" from Civ V. Upon discovery, a player has the three choices:
They can settle on the planet, effectively "Conquering" the native race and assimilating them.
They can make contact with the planet and attempt to trade with the natives.
Or they can leave the planet uncontacted to studied the natives.

Obviously in choice one, a player conquers a planet and assimilates the natives. This would allow the player access to any primitive buildings and of course the planets resources, but it would be considered 'not nice' diplomatically.
If a player just makes contact with a planet, they can trade with the natives. Eventually over time, the planets natives may choose to willingly become a part of the players Empire, thus becoming an active colony. Trading with the planet before that stage would be able to get resources from the planet as well as cultural artifacts that could be used.
If a player leaves such a planet completely alone, they can gain extra "culture" points from studying the society. The more primitive the culture, the more points you will get.

Typically, the more advanced a planet with Native is, the more receptive it will be to making contact and eventually joining the players Empire. The more primitive a planet is, the harder contact would be, however the more 'research' and culture you would get from preserving it.


RANDOM EVENTS

In most 4X games as well as all the Master of Orion games, there were always various "Random Events". Usually they tended to be Negative things, a chemical spill, computer virus, star going nova etc, but occasionally they could beneficial things. The "usefulness" of such things was debated and there was no consensus on weather or not such things really have a place in a game or could add some new dynamic to a game.

Other "Random Events" were attacks from "Space Monsters"
Usually these were sci-fi stereotypes of monsters that would attack a planet. Usually these showed up late in the game and were often VERY easy to kill by the time you encountered them. Again the usefulness of such things is debatable. Having them, early might offer more of a challenge also having more than one of a monster, or a monster that when "defeated" would come back again and again might offer a challenge as well.

One idea floated was having some sort of tech or Artifact that could allow you to "weponize" a space monster to sic on someone else.

The original monsters were listed just for discussion.

Amoeba will kill all life and leave the planet "Toxic" Very hard
Crystal Will kills all life but leave all buildings standing - Hard
Space Hydra (Jellyfish/thing) will attack a colony, but leave after 60% population is killed - Med
Giant Eel - Does not attack, but spawns babies that blockade planets - Easy

Too much input to evaluate. Needs to be broken down into separate pieces for discussion. I suggest that we pick ONE section of the above and pick it over in detail.

That actually makes a lot of sense, I should re-edit the whole thing into "Chapters" and post them one at a time..
Good Call!

I also have to note: Space 4Xs are actually pretty broad in what they're trying to be. A lot of people rave about MoO2, but to be blunt its empire-management aspects were usually dwarfed by the fun of designing and using Stellar-Converter equipped battleships. GalCiv meanwhile is more of an empire manager in terms of its scope, but is moving a percentage slider around really be considered to be compelling gameplay. Or how about the ground combat aspect? Emperor of the Fading Suns was really more of a ground warfare game than a 4X; you just happened to use spaceships to move troops from world to world.

You have to define what your ideal space-empire game is first - with the usually-accepted format being a one paragraph summary containing the most important elements; followed by a one-page exposition of the summary detailing what you feel to be the key concepts. Only when you have this basic groundwork can you really evaluate your ideas in comparison to your 4X vision.

Well, my intuitive notion from reading the megaposts is that he's essentially trying to get the Master of Orion II band back together, only 'better,' for a loose definition of better.

Which is not to say he isn't adding some interesting design ideas along with that, of course.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, my intuitive notion from reading the megaposts is that he's essentially trying to get the Master of Orion II band back together, only 'better,' for a loose definition of better.

Which is not to say he isn't adding some interesting design ideas along with that, of course.

That's the flip side of interesting ideas though: Interesting ideas are not the same as having a coherent game. 4Xs by and large live and die on how its numerous interlocking systems come together; and how it sells a particular key focus. MoO2 for instance was in many ways a starship battle simulator with an economic engine behind it; just like how the new X-com is mainly a tactical turn-based combat game with a strategic layer. OTOH GalCiv and Alpha Centauri is all about the strategic layer - sure you design units and stuff, but what's most important is developing the huge economic advantage by base/planet management.

Yeah, that's the issue. Most of his ideas are "gee, how could we take Master of Orion II and make its economic side better!" Except that when you do that you end up making the game massively complicated because it has both great economic complexity and great tactical complexity.

Personally I'd like a game that focusses on political stuff. Not that their wouldn't be combat at times, but I'd like a focus on diplomacy and politics and a game where its possible to win without firing a shot. I like the OP's idea of being able to choose what kind of government your faction has.

Politics and diplomacy have to be good in any game I play. Nothing pissed me off more in MOO 3 or Civ 5 than having another empire declare war on me or impose sanctions or some bullshit like that with no warning and no reason. MOO 3 was a fine game in many respects except for some AI issues, the combat screen, and diplomacy.

How belligerent a faction is should depend on its culture, type of government, and strength. A large, rich empire, a theocracy intent on spreading its beliefs, or a fascist dictatorship should be much more willing to gratuitously start fights.

Oh certainly, but when you're allied with someone for centuries and giving them tech and money without doing anything threatening whatsoever...it makes little sense for them to suddenly turn on you.

The issue with in-game diplomacy is that the AIs are programmed to win the game, hence cannot be expected to act like rational real-world diplomats. "Winning the game" and being "a properly-behaved respectable nation" are often two very different real things. Heck, I keep getting told by some people that I am play diplomacy-heavy game like Dominions improperly because I refuse to backstab allies.

Real-world diplomats don't have to win a "game" other than "maintain the peace and prosperity of my country". They don't have a timer telling them that America is about to win a cultural victory which would suddenly render everyone else's efforts irrelevant. If such a thing did exist in the real world, then yes maybe you'd see Britain suddenly declare war on America to preserve their way of life.

"Winning the game" and being "a properly-behaved respectable nation"

It would (at least for me) make a VERY interesting game if you had to juggle real world-ish politics, rather than simply build a horde of spaceships and obliterate every planet in your way without repercussions. A game like that could last for a long time as you gradually increase your strength and influence while fending off rivals who may use more subtle means to undermine your efforts instead of simply declaring war.

Borgholio wrote:

"Winning the game" and being "a properly-behaved respectable nation"

It would (at least for me) make a VERY interesting game if you had to juggle real world-ish politics, rather than simply build a horde of spaceships and obliterate every planet in your way without repercussions. A game like that could last for a long time as you gradually increase your strength and influence while fending off rivals who may use more subtle means to undermine your efforts instead of simply declaring war.

The thing is, juggling real-world politics is often complex enough to be a game in its own right.

Which is again why scoping is important. It's really easy to get carried away with trying to implement way too many systems that you end up with something like MoO3. Figure out which particular portions of 4X that you really like first, then build a game around that.

Sid Meyer's DIPLOMACY. Hmm...could work. You're probably right about the scale though. At least they should make SOME attempt at realism so that the AI decisions at least make sense.

Zinegata wrote:The issue with in-game diplomacy is that the AIs are programmed to win the game, hence cannot be expected to act like rational real-world diplomats. "Winning the game" and being "a properly-behaved respectable nation" are often two very different real things. Heck, I keep getting told by some people that I am play diplomacy-heavy game like Dominions improperly because I refuse to backstab allies.

Real-world diplomats don't have to win a "game" other than "maintain the peace and prosperity of my country". They don't have a timer telling them that America is about to win a cultural victory which would suddenly render everyone else's efforts irrelevant. If such a thing did exist in the real world, then yes maybe you'd see Britain suddenly declare war on America to preserve their way of life.

Winning the game doesn't mean constantly attacking. It means choosing the battles you need to fight and making sure you have allies if you aren't strong enough to win on your own.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Zinegata wrote:The issue with in-game diplomacy is that the AIs are programmed to win the game, hence cannot be expected to act like rational real-world diplomats. "Winning the game" and being "a properly-behaved respectable nation" are often two very different real things. Heck, I keep getting told by some people that I am play diplomacy-heavy game like Dominions improperly because I refuse to backstab allies.

Real-world diplomats don't have to win a "game" other than "maintain the peace and prosperity of my country". They don't have a timer telling them that America is about to win a cultural victory which would suddenly render everyone else's efforts irrelevant. If such a thing did exist in the real world, then yes maybe you'd see Britain suddenly declare war on America to preserve their way of life.

Winning the game doesn't mean constantly attacking. It means choosing the battles you need to fight and making sure you have allies if you aren't strong enough to win on your own.

Most 4X AIs don't attack constantly - they do so in two very specific circumstances. The first is when they're much more powerful than you and think you're easy pickings. The second, much more common reason is because you're the runaway leader and hence is the global "threat to world peace".

The second bit is important as attacking is very often the only way to degrade a runaway leader's position. If America is 25 turns away from a cultural victory and the AI is 100 turns away - and has no capability of catching up - then the choice is clear: Attack even if America is much more powerful militarily. You're going to lose anyway; all you're hoping for is to do damage before you go down.

For AIs (and players) to behave rationally there really should be alternate win condition mechanics; as the current "winner takes all" model simply results in ganging up those closest to reaching their the win conditions. In all honesty, the win conditions need a serious revamp anyway as they're all so arbitrary and divorced from the real world - you "win" just because you now have three massive cultural centers?

Take this alternate victory model for instance: The game starts in 4000 BC and ends in 2010 AD. Nobody can win before 2010, and the winner is decided on the very last turn. The winner is the one with the highest aggregate score - adding up population, culture, productivity, tech, etc. Specific achievements (e.g. having the first city with 50,000 culture) merely adds bonus points to the aggregate score as opposed to auto-winning.

To help decrease all-out war (which in real life is rare anyway), a penalty will be imposed for completely genociding an entire people (history remembers your crimes!), and for having unhappy non-"core" populations in your empire (you are a tyrant that has enslaved many people!). So, sure, you can attack the "leader", but doing so may not necessarily help improve your score.

I never liked the sudden death nature of many Civ victories anyway. When judging your performance playing a game lasting several hundred turns, one should take your entire rulership into account; not just the last 50-100 turns when you unlock the techs to make an instant win possible.

Zinegata wrote:Take this alternate victory model for instance: The game starts in 4000 BC and ends in 2010 AD. Nobody can win before 2010, and the winner is decided on the very last turn. The winner is the one with the highest aggregate score - adding up population, culture, productivity, tech, etc. Specific achievements (e.g. having the first city with 50,000 culture) merely adds bonus points to the aggregate score as opposed to auto-winning.

To help decrease all-out war (which in real life is rare anyway), a penalty will be imposed for completely genociding an entire people (history remembers your crimes!), and for having unhappy non-"core" populations in your empire (you are a tyrant that has enslaved many people!). So, sure, you can attack the "leader", but doing so may not necessarily help improve your score.

I never liked the sudden death nature of many Civ victories anyway. When judging your performance playing a game lasting several hundred turns, one should take your entire rulership into account; not just the last 50-100 turns when you unlock the techs to make an instant win possible.

The Civilization series already has something like that. The game ends in 2050 and the highest score wins. And thank god you can turn it off. You see, the problem with such a victory condition is that whilst effective for the AI it is boring for the player. All the other victory conditions like conquest, domination, space, cultural etc. give you goals to strive for and attain. And the fun of the game is in struggling to attain them. There is no fun to be had in juggling population happiness to get +2 points 10 hours of playing later.

The context of my post was how to get the AI to behave rationally on the diplomatic front; and ultimately that stems from sudden death victory conditions. Unlike in real life, the "achieve XYZ and you WIN" condition means that AIs and players can and should gang up in the person that is clearly closing in on one of the victory goals.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the better way to implement the victory conditions (albeit I do dislike the sudden death mechanic - and do note that games like Europa Universalis exist without such sudden death mechanics just fine). What I am saying is that you need to tweak the victory conditions to make the AI behave more like real-world nations on the diplomatic front. The AI's "irrational" behavior by and large can be explained when you look at what it's trying to do to win; and by and large the victory conditions means its actions are in fact rational given the game's victory rules.

The trick with a game that has no sudden death victory conditions is that a player can just stop playing when they accomplish whatever they set out to do. That's a bit unconventional by the standards of the computer/video game genre. But it's very much in keeping with the "software toy" approach that was pioneered by companies like Maxis.

Most MMOs can fall into the category of games that end when the player decides they end as well. I think it would be refreshing to have a 4x game that did the same thing. Perhaps instead of sudden death conditions, the various tasks could convey bonuses on whatever empire completed them. It wouldn't be sudden death but it would still give you an incentive to work towards those goals.

Oh wow! I didn't think anyone would respond to it after it had gone down the page a bit.

SO I have a question.. In terms of breaking it up into more "Manageable" chunks...
An idea I had was to post each "ChapteR" in a separate thread, And then link all the threads to the Top post in this one..
Anyone think that would work?

As far the changes... Most of the changes I'd put in (I thought) were mostly on Game play and the UI and such, the whole "stages" concept. Didn't think the Economy part would seem so focused on.

Well, the most important issue we've identified so far is to pick the thing you want to make work, and make it work. Everything else can be highly abstracted.

For instance, planetary ground combat in Master of Orion I and II was highly abstracted- you bring X units of troops to a planet and there's a cutscene where they fight it out with the defenders.

And frankly, if the focus of your game isn't going to be planetary ground combat, that's good. Because otherwise the people who want to do something else with the game will be getting irritated playing what is effectively an irrelevant minigame (ground combat). They'll go "why the fuck do I have to worry about troops and tanks and killbots and airfighters and aerospace fighters and spaceoair fighters and what not. I want to see attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion!"

So the real question is: what is this game supposed to be about?

Simon_Jester wrote:So the real question is: what is this game supposed to be about?

That, is a very good question...
If I had to sum it up.. It would basically be :

Having a Galactic civilization game where you have a true sense of "Galactic" scale civilizations, but not be bogged down in excessive micromanaging.
You should be able to have a game with perhaps over 100 colonies (of different shapes and sizes) and not have to worrying about such massive sizes detracting from your fun.

I could list a bunch of other things, many from the original "fixing MoO" thread that started this.. But I'd say all of those things boil down to the above statement.