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The Big Book of B&B wrote: The Ideas Behind the Game
This game originally evolved from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Second Edition. It was created because I felt that the aforementioned game did not suit my tastes. I started out by changing rules individually, then I began to change large groups of rules, and one day realized that my version of the game could no longer be called AD&D. That game eventually became Blades & Barmaids, which underwent several major overhauls before appearing in its present form. Previous versions of B&B were cumbersome and too heavy on realism, sometimes sacrificing game balance and playability for its sake. In its present form, B&B is not an evolution of AD&D or any other RPG, rather a completely original work.
Since D&D is and always has been the most popular RPG, B&B is best compared with that game. There are numerous problems with D&D. The first lies in the ultra-powerful heroes. Sometimes it is fun to have a character that can win fights against 10 to 1 odds, or fell the mightiest giant, and sometimes a more realistic game is desired. Once the early feeble levels are passed through, the heroes become very powerful very quickly. D&D can not be adapted to suit different settings or styles of play without major overhauls of the rules. B&B is designed to be modular. The system can be adjusted quickly and easily to suit the power level and complexity desired by the GM and the gaming group. This allows for both high fantasy dragon slaying and gritty realistic games with no change in the rule sets. This modularity is accomplished in three simple and intuitive ways: First, the amount of Hit Points available to characters is a multiple of the Body Stat, but it is left up to the GM to decide what the co-efficient is. Low co-efficients favor realistic games with vulnerable PCs, while high co-efficients favor D&D style high fantasy. Second, the amount of XP to give initially and award later is completely up to the GM, allowing him to control how powerful the characters are when they start, and how quickly they advance. Third, all rules follow a few similar patterns and formulas, and are not inter-depedent. In other words, you can remove a rule and everything else will still make sense.
The main problem with D&D, however, lies in the difficulty of conducting good roleplaying. The class system, the alignment system, and the leveling system serve to pigeonhole characters and limit the imaginations of players. It’s impossible to roleplay well when there’s no believability and perspective. B&B is designed so that the player can have an intuitive feel for what his character can and can’t do. How many of us would have to think before deciding that attacking a 10 foot tall troll is a bad idea? But in D&D, where a thin elf can easily be just as strong as a troll, it becomes hazy. The player has no perspective. The concept of class also limits role-playing, particularly when the classes play to people’s pre-conceived notions (fighter, mage, priest, thief). B&B’s character creation system allows players to build their characters by purchasing skills that they want through experience. There is no class, and there are few restrictions.

Things That are not Present in this Book
In this book, you will not find detailed lists of monsters, spells, campaign worlds, maps, or the like. These things are unnecessary for GMs with a vivid imagination or access to previously published RPG books with cute drawings and high production values. It is not difficult to convert monsters or spells to B&B. Just look at the monster, read its discription, and compare them to other things in B&B. For instance, “These things look muscular and weigh 600 pounds, while an average human weighs about 200 pounds and has 5 Body, so this monster should have 15 Body.” D&D books are quite expensive, but there are plenty of other, more obscure roleplaying games with the same material for $10 or less. Maybe in the future I will release some sample NPCs and spells, but don’t expect me to re-invent the wheel.

namdoolb wrote:rather annoyingly nothing I have will open that file properly.

Is there any chance of putting a copy up in Rich Text Format?

The Big Book of B&B wrote: In its present form, B&B is not an evolution of AD&D or any other RPG, rather a completely original work.
Since B&B evolved from D&D, and D&D is and always has been the most popular RPG, it is best compared with that game.

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Whoops. Just noticed this contradiction. It's fixed.

Hotfoot wrote:It's interesting, but I don't think I'd use it myself. Some things about it seem really odd, such as the combat system (10' per second movement for humans while fighting?).

The time system seems...very complex.

While I can see why you have issues with the turn-based system of AD&D (there's so much to dislike about AD&D in general), there's a very simple way to get around it: simultaneous turns. Everyone declares their actions before each combat round, secretly if need be, and then the round is resolved according to those actions. Essentially, everyone acts at the same time, but the order of those actions is determined by initiative. This adds a huge degree of realism to the game with only a small change in the existing rules.

The damage system bothers me, but then I was never very fond of hitpoints.

Also, I tend to think that a hit that succeeds by 5 should do more damage than a hit that succeeds by 1, but that's something else entirely.

As for the character sheets: was the exclusion of mental attributes intentional, or is this just a reworking of the physical and combat areas of AD&D?

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Thanks for the input, Hotfoot.

That's assuming a dead sprint with no armor. Remember that these are only the bare bones rules. Armor, encumbrance (which I don't personally use), etc. rules haven't been implemented. Even so, I make it clear that I'm interested in believability and consistency, but game balance comes before absolute realism, and 2 squares per second serves its purpose well. However, the other point of the system is modularity. If you don't like 2 squares per second, make it 1. Nothing else will get screwed up.

How so?

Time units are a lot more flexible and less riddled with potholes than turns. For one thing, under a turn based system, slow weapons may go after everyone else, but they still get the same frequency of attacks (1/turn) as fast weapons. I'm very curious about how it seems complex, so I can maybe explain it more succintly, because it seems really simple to me, so the problem most likely lies in the explanation.

Is it just the presence of hit points, or is there something else about it that bothers you? And what do you use instead of hit points?

That's covered, just not under the basic rules. The way I work it is that each 5 points better than needed to hit adds another level of critical hit severity. There's also location specific damage (which, unlike in most systems, is a seperate concept from critical hits) that affects the limb it hits, but doesn't do HP damage (so people don't die from a hit on the wrist, but they might have their hand severed).

Except for the Willpower stat (determines ability to keep fighting after suffering grievous wounds), which I haven't got to covering yet, the exclusion of mental attributes like Intelligence and Charisma was quite intentional. I feel that those are things best left to the player's imagination and off the character sheet. Those scores penalize people who want to play charming or intelligence characters, and reward those who want to role-play dumb and/or butt-ugly ones. Also, even if I didn't feel that way, those stats create a lot of potential for "mini-maxing". I don't like having stats that can be tanked to create a super-character (albeit a dumb and ugly one).

Hotfoot wrote:

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Thanks for the input, Hotfoot.

I do what I can, but be warned, I tend to devolve into Sil-pimping after a while.

How so?

It seems like some sort of real-time/live action system, or something. You also don't explain it very well in the document, but rather spend most of the time talking about what's wrong with turn-based combat.

I can't really figure out if the TUCS is just the same as AD&D's combat rounds, but instead being 1 second instead of 60.

But imagine the following scenario: each combat round is determined second by second. Unless each combat round is decided in real time as well, this becomes insanely cumbersome as each character describes what they are doing each second, as opposed to the brief synopsis of declaring your actions over a period of 6 seconds (or 60).

Time units are a lot more flexible and less riddled with potholes than turns. For one thing, under a turn based system, slow weapons may go after everyone else, but they still get the same frequency of attacks (1/turn) as fast weapons. I'm very curious about how it seems complex, so I can maybe explain it more succintly, because it seems really simple to me, so the problem most likely lies in the explanation.

Well, for one, you keep the concept of slow weapons in the game. D&D 3rd Edition removes that factor from combat entirely, and with good reason. Frankly, I'm not fond of either system, but in any event, the simple way around that is to alter the rules for "slower" weapons, so that it is harder to get more attacks with them, rather than to cling to other arbitrary rules.

Personally, I'm still fond of the Silhouette system's method of combat. Initiative isn't based on reflexes, and to get multiple attacks in a round, you take penalties to all your actions (as you're rushing along). As your characters improve, those negatives are lessened somewhat, making it potentially more viable in combat, but still.

I never liked D&D's THaCO/multiple attacks system anyway. There's no reason a level 1 fighter can't attack five times in a combat round, but those swings will be extremely wild and unfocused.

Is it just the presence of hit points, or is there something else about it that bothers you? And what do you use instead of hit points?

Hit points in general are pretty nonsensical. For example, I have in my hand a dagger. In the real world, I could kill somebody with it, regardless if they are a pro football player or a senile old man. Now, in a fight, the football player may be able to better shrug off the pain and physical damage of my attacks better than the old man, but if I hit a vital spot, it's all over. In a system with hitpoints, there is no way to get a one-hit kill on a high level adventurer without resorting to a plethora of complex rules.

That's covered, just not under the basic rules. The way I work it is that each 5 points better than needed to hit adds another level of critical hit severity. There's also location specific damage (which, unlike in most systems, is a seperate concept from critical hits) that affects the limb it hits, but doesn't do HP damage (so people don't die from a hit on the wrist, but they might have their hand severed).

I feel some preaching coming on...

Except for the Willpower stat (determines ability to keep fighting after suffering grievous wounds), which I haven't got to covering yet, the exclusion of mental attributes like Intelligence and Charisma was quite intentional. I feel that those are things best left to the player's imagination and off the character sheet. Those scores penalize people who want to play charming or intelligence characters, and reward those who want to role-play dumb and/or butt-ugly ones. Also, even if I didn't feel that way, those stats create a lot of potential for "mini-maxing". I don't like having stats that can be tanked to create a super-character (albeit a dumb and ugly one).

So have you completely left out magic from the system, or how does it work now?

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Pimp away, just don't hijack my thread

I guess the name is kind of misleading. I got the idea from a D&D netbook I skimmed over a long time ago and never changed the name. I think from now on I'll call it the Real-time Combat System.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Actually, players don't have to describe what they're doing each second, anymore than you have told hold down a key to get a soldier to keep moving in an RTS game. Once a player has said what he wants to do, he doesn't have to pipe up again until the action's complete or he changes his mind.

Arbitrary in a round-based system maybe, but in mine it's pretty simple and intuitive (to me, anyway).

That's a good system. First good round-based system I've personally seen. Is this Silhouette game new? I've never heard of it, but then, I've been out of the mainstream RPG loop for quite some time as I focused more on my own game.

That's a really good idea. I can already think of a way to implement something similar into my system. Thanks

In my system there is. I improve upon basic HP treatment in four ways (and some of this isn't in the book yet, so you didn't miss it).

1. I introduce Action Points, which I envision as partial dodges, deflections to a less vital area, etc. These are completely optional, of course, but the kicker is this: There are certain situations (character is tied up, boulder falls on head, doesn't see attack coming, etc.) in which AP are bypassed, so that you can have a fight with a lot of nicks and cuts, but can also have someone die if a sword gets buried to the hilt in them.

2. The amount of hit points everyone receives is a multiplier of the Body stat, and it's up to the GM to choose the co-efficient, so people like yourself and I can set it up so that characters are extremely mortal while someone else could choose to set it up so it's like D&D without changing the rules.

3. A person can shrug off an amount of damage equal to his body, so you don't get silly situations where an ogre gets beaten to death by hobbits that each do 1 damage with each punch.

4. Location based damage can make all the difference. Stick your dagger in the football player's ribs, and it probably won't kill him, but stick it in his heart or slide it across his throat and it's a whole 'nother story.

Nope, that was it

Magic won't be determined by an ability stat. How it will be determined is something I haven't quite figured out yet, as all my previous campaigns have either not had magic, or wizards were god-like beings that could only be NPCs, and so I didn't really need a system. It was just a storytelling device.

I think what I'll do is this: Have the default system to where the power level of spells depends on how much XP you invest into them, and introduce an optional ability stat (Psyche, or Intelligence, or some such thing) for magic-users that only shows up for them, so non-wizards can't tank it to the benefit of other stats. That way, GMs will have a choice which they want to use.

Hotfoot wrote:

Arthur Tuxedo wrote:I guess the name is kind of misleading. I got the idea from a D&D netbook I skimmed over a long time ago and never changed the name. I think from now on I'll call it the Real-time Combat System.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Actually, players don't have to describe what they're doing each second, anymore than you have told hold down a key to get a soldier to keep moving in an RTS game. Once a player has said what he wants to do, he doesn't have to pipe up again until the action's complete or he changes his mind.

Er...okay, but then how do you determine how long it takes to complete any one particular action?

Arbitrary in a round-based system maybe, but in mine it's pretty simple and intuitive (to me, anyway).

I guess I still don't get it yet.

That's a good system. First good round-based system I've personally seen. Is this Silhouette game new? I've never heard of it, but then, I've been out of the mainstream RPG loop for quite some time as I focused more on my own game.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. Silhouette is a rules system used by Dream Pod 9 for their line of games (Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Tribe 8, Gear Krieg, and in just about one more week, Core Command). There's an updated version of the rules about to be released, but it's primarily refinements on the old system. For an idea of how Silhouette is used in a fantasy system, check out this Tribe 8 Demo game DP9 has in PDF format on their website.

1. I introduce Action Points, which I envision as partial dodges, deflections to a less vital area, etc. These are completely optional, of course, but the kicker is this: There are certain situations (character is tied up, boulder falls on head, doesn't see attack coming, etc.) in which AP are bypassed, so that you can have a fight with a lot of nicks and cuts, but can also have someone die if a sword gets buried to the hilt in them.

Reminds me of a house rule from a while back for AD&D, where the first 50% of your HP acted like this, and could be recovered from a simple good night's sleep.

2. The amount of hit points everyone receives is a multiplier of the Body stat, and it's up to the GM to choose the co-efficient, so people like yourself and I can set it up so that characters are extremely mortal while someone else could choose to set it up so it's like D&D without changing the rules.

Interesting. Still seems to create a massive gap between the levels though.

3. A person can shrug off an amount of damage equal to his body, so you don't get silly situations where an ogre gets beaten to death by hobbits that each do 1 damage with each punch.

Reminds me of the Cyberpunk system of doing damage there, sort of.

4. Location based damage can make all the difference. Stick your dagger in the football player's ribs, and it probably won't kill him, but stick it in his heart or slide it across his throat and it's a whole 'nother story.

True, though location-based damage like that can get messy, I would think.

I think what I'll do is this: Have the default system to where the power level of spells depends on how much XP you invest into them, and introduce an optional ability stat (Psyche, or Intelligence, or some such thing) for magic-users that only shows up for them, so non-wizards can't tank it to the benefit of other stats. That way, GMs will have a choice which they want to use.

Could work as a kludge, I guess.

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Well, for combat, it's the speed roll, for movement you move x squares/second, and for other stuff like digging something out of a pack, it's GM's judgement.

A fast weapon like a knife has a weapon speed of 3, so the speed roll is 1d6 + 3, while a slow one like a warhammer has 7. So at TU 1, assuming every d6 roll is a 3 for simplicity, the guy with the knife attacks at TU 6, 12, 18, etc. and the guy with the hammer attacks at 10, 20, 30. That's not complicated or arbitrary, is it?

Cool. Thanks

There are no levels. I guess I didn't make that clear enough. You directly spend the XP you get to improve skills.

Most of my ideas came from some external source, but I'm pretty sure I've never played Cyberpunk. *shrug*

I try to make it as intuitive as possible. You just think of important parts on the body, counting from up to down and left to right and roll the relevant die. So, for a randomly targeted hit, it would be a 1d4. Since we're counting from top to bottom, 1 would be head, 2 arms, 3 torso, 4 legs. Then (let's say the roll was a 1, so head) there are 6 important spots on the head, so 1d6. 1 is top of head, 2 is forehead, 3 is left eye, 4 is right eye, 5 is jaw, and 6 is throat. So, yes it's complicated, but it's intuitive rather than table-based, so you don't have to memorize anything.

The way I do it is: If it's a thin or weak part of the body (throat, eye) then damage equal to 25% of the character's HP will put it out of comission for the battle, 50% permanently (ie. 50% wrist = your hand's been severed).

If it's a strong part (femur, hip), then it's 50% temporary, 100% permanent.

Location damage only does HP damage when it makes sense (throat, forehead, but not hand).

Body's resistance also only used where it makes sense (torso but not throat or heart).

No location-based damage system is for the faint of heart, but I'm trying to make this one easy to swallow without sacrificing functionality.

Hey now, something only counts as kludge if it's cumbersome in addition to crappy. That's the beauty of B&B, you can tack on whatever kind of half-hearted garbage you want without it being kludgy

Hotfoot wrote:

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Well, for combat, it's the speed roll, for movement you move x squares/second, and for other stuff like digging something out of a pack, it's GM's judgement.

Hmmm.

A fast weapon like a knife has a weapon speed of 3, so the speed roll is 1d6 + 3, while a slow one like a warhammer has 7. So at TU 1, assuming every d6 roll is a 3 for simplicity, the guy with the knife attacks at TU 6, 12, 18, etc. and the guy with the hammer attacks at 10, 20, 30. That's not complicated or arbitrary, is it?

Well, not as arbitrary as I though, but it still makes combat rather complicated, I think. Might work well for a C-RPG, but keeping track of stuff like that is going to get massively cumbersome as you add more combatants. I see anything above 4 vs. 4 getting extremely nasty.

Cool. Thanks

You're welcome. If you'd like any further explainations, just ask away, here or by PM.

There are no levels. I guess I didn't make that clear enough. You directly spend the XP you get to improve skills.

True, true, that was my mistake. It's just hard to accurately portray what I meant without resorting to the concept of levels.

Most of my ideas came from some external source, but I'm pretty sure I've never played Cyberpunk. *shrug*

Oh, I wasn't accusing you of plagiarism, it just reminded me of it. Actually, in CP2020, they had an extra rule so that players couldn't shrug off damage completely, so that they always at least took one point of damage from any one attack, even if the armor stopped it completely.

I try to make it as intuitive as possible. You just think of important parts on the body, counting from up to down and left to right and roll the relevant die. So, for a randomly targeted hit, it would be a 1d4. Since we're counting from top to bottom, 1 would be head, 2 arms, 3 torso, 4 legs. Then (let's say the roll was a 1, so head) there are 6 important spots on the head, so 1d6. 1 is top of head, 2 is forehead, 3 is left eye, 4 is right eye, 5 is jaw, and 6 is throat. So, yes it's complicated, but it's intuitive rather than table-based, so you don't have to memorize anything.

The less dice you have to roll in combat, the better, I've found. Rather, the less often you have to roll dice, the better.

The way I do it is: If it's a thin or weak part of the body (throat, eye) then damage equal to 25% of the character's HP will put it out of comission for the battle, 50% permanently (ie. 50% wrist = your hand's been severed).

If it's a strong part (femur, hip), then it's 50% temporary, 100% permanent.

Location damage only does HP damage when it makes sense (throat, forehead, but not hand).

Body's resistance also only used where it makes sense (torso but not throat or heart).

No location-based damage system is for the faint of heart, but I'm trying to make this one easy to swallow without sacrificing functionality.

So...if the fighter has 100 hit points, he's got to take 25 to his eye to temporarily blind him, and 50 to permenantly blind him? Err...yikes.

Hey now, something only counts as kludge if it's cumbersome in addition to crappy. That's the beauty of B&B, you can tack on whatever kind of half-hearted garbage you want without it being kludgy

Half-hearted garbage is, by definition, "kludgy" A kludge is just a clumst or inelegant solution to a problem.

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I take it you don't approve?

If you try and do it in your head, sure. You have to be writing down who goes when. Hmm, that's really important information that should have been in the book . Thanks for pointing that out.

Or maybe I'll start another thread in case anyone else is curious, too. But I'm not gonna hijack my own thread

You mean someone who's earned a lot of experience and upgraded HP a lot, then? Well, even the most veteran of characters would be lucky to have doubled their HP, unless they concentrate solely on that, which would turn them into a resilient punching bag My system doesn't have D&D syndrome with characters having 10 times as many HP as they started with before you can say "poor game design".

I considered that, but I decided that something has to be somewhat serious to do damage. If someone punches you in the chest and it leaves a bruise, that will hurt, but it shouldn't do damage because you haven't actually been injured. Now if Mike Tyson punches you, that's different

Very true. However, I'm not sure how to implement location-specific damage without adding at least 2 or 3 dice rolls or consulting a table *vommit*.

Hehe, I'm giddy just thinking about it. A "high-level" party in B&B using location-specific rules usually ends up being a bunch of cripples. When HP multiplier is set low, heads roll left and right and people drop like flies. I love it!

Oh... well in that case, I'll have to rephrase: The beauty of B&B is that you can tack on whatever kind of kludgy, half-hearted swill you want without it being cumbersome

Hotfoot wrote:

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I take it you don't approve?

Dunno, mulling it over. Lukewarm right now.

If you try and do it in your head, sure. You have to be writing down who goes when. Hmm, that's really important information that should have been in the book . Thanks for pointing that out.

Still a lot of writing to do, and I do mean a lot. The more you have to keep track of, the more likely you are to lose track of something, even with writing it all down. Don't forget that writing it all down is going to take time.

Then you add in the rolling, each player sounding off, etc. 4 players + 10 orcs/baddies would probably make my head explode if the fight lasted for more than a minute.

Very true. However, I'm not sure how to implement location-specific damage without adding at least 2 or 3 dice rolls or consulting a table *vommit*.

*stealthpimps*

Hehe, I'm giddy just thinking about it. A "high-level" party in B&B using location-specific rules usually ends up being a bunch of cripples. When HP multiplier is set low, heads roll left and right and people drop like flies. I love it!

Heh. I should tell you about the "Labyrinth" sub-quest I had my players go through...gives a good example of how nasty Sil combat can really be.

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Tell me if you think of improvements.

I know how long it takes. The system's been thouroughly playtested. What I do is take a blank sheet of paper, and start a few lines down, then write the initials of each character and number of each enemy at the top, underlined, and write the TU that they regain initiative or balance underneath, crossing out as I go, then I write in HP or AP damage on top. ....This should really be in the Big Book

Combat rarely lasts that long, and the complexity level decreases as you go along and combatants get killed.

OK, OK, I'll read the T8 demo.

I'm interested to hear it. PM me.

Hotfoot wrote:

OK, OK, I'll read the T8 demo.

Well, truthfully, the advanced rules like that aren't in there, but the way it works in Silhouette is quite elegant, I think.

I'm interested to hear it. PM me.

Copy that.

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:OK, so how does it work in Silhouette?

Still waiting on that PM :taps foot:

Hotfoot wrote:

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:OK, so how does it work in Silhouette?

Called shots to any "vital" spots give a negative to hit, but reduce the character's damage thresholds by half (armor is left alone). Chest and head count as "vital", but since chest areas are most commonly armored, this leaves headshots (most of the time, not that armor negates the usefulness of this at all). Called shots to limbs are generally considered to be primarily for non-lethal takedowns (GM's call, depending on the trauma inficted). Aiming like this is primarily used for ranged weapons, but it's easy to apply to close combat. It makes sneak attacks all the nastier, too. Basically, what you can do is apply a wound penalty to any action involving the wounded limb. So if you get hit in the leg, you can still fire a ranged weapon all right, but ducking, weaving, and charging into combat is going to be difficult.

But usually, the way Silhouette works, the pain from the wound is really what matters in the long run. Every time you take a wound, you make a health check versus a threshold of 1 (that's 2D6 + HEA + all of your wounds that has to meet or beat a 1) or pass out from the pain. So three light wounds (-3 total) means that you have to roll 4 or better on 2D6 + HEA, or you're going down for 3D6 minutes or so.

Still waiting on that PM :taps foot:

Sorry, had a brain-wipe. I started thinking about it, remembered that I forgot about the details of most of what happened, and that my notes are mostly back at home. Going to have to wait a little longer, I'm afraid.