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1. Lots of, uh, 'finessed' benchmarks showing general Apple superiority.

2. Apple shows off their new G5 (PowerPC 970) and the new case. Personally, I don't like the case - only two HDD bays, 1 optical bay and 3 PCI or PCI-X slots. It's not that attractive either. Hit up Apple for the lookaround. 8GB of RAM is nice, though

3. Apple shows off an early version of OS X 10.3. Looks nice, some new features. The usual $129 fee applies.

4. iChat AV is an extention to their IM client for easy videoconferencing. Will be included with OSX 10.3, otherwise it's $29

5. Apple shows off their new webcam which is actually rather nice. It can stream a full 640x480@30fps and has an F/2.8 lens. Pricey, though, at $150 and requires iChat AV at the moment.

phongn wrote:1. Lots of, uh, 'finessed' benchmarks showing general Apple superiority.

2. Apple shows off their new G5 (PowerPC 970) and the new case. Personally, I don't like the case - only two HDD bays, 1 optical bay and 3 PCI or PCI-X slots. It's not that attractive either. Hit up Apple for the lookaround. 8GB of RAM is nice, though

3. Apple shows off an early version of OS X 10.3. Looks nice, some new features. The usual $129 fee applies.

4. iChat AV is an extention to their IM client for easy videoconferencing. Will be included with OSX 10.3, otherwise it's $29

5. Apple shows off their new webcam which is actually rather nice. It can stream a full 640x480@30fps and has an F/2.8 lens. Pricey, though, at $150 and requires iChat AV at the moment.

You can get a pretty good mac. For about $5000. For the same price, a PC will have about twice the performance, with a shitload of free stuff (like a monitor, Windows XP, etc.).

Macs are awesome for making pics. Other than that, they suck.

YT300000 wrote:You can get a pretty good mac. For about $5000.

The range is now $2000 to $3000.

For the same price, a PC will have about twice the performance, with a shitload of free stuff (like a monitor, Windows XP, etc.).

You get Windows XP Home, which doesn't come with nearly as much stuff out of the box as OS X. As for a monitor, whatever. Pick up a cheap 19" CRT. I paid $240 for mine.

Macs are awesome for making pics. Other than that, they suck.

Don't forget audio engineering.
And scientific computing (an area where the G5 completely outclasses anything Intel has to offer and bests *nix workstations, as well).
And video editing.
And compositing (you can bet Shake will fly on a G5).
And 3D rendering.
And video encoding.

As much as I love hasty PC user generalizations about the useful applications of the most popular *nix on the planet coupled with a 64-bit processor that keeps very good pace with the best the x86 world has to offer, you'll have to actually use one before you make such statements. Hell, most PC users don't even know why Macs are better for graphics work; they just assume that's the case.

Enlighten me. Why are Macs better for graphics work?

Durandal wrote:

YT300000 wrote:You can get a pretty good mac. For about $5000.

The range is now $2000 to $3000.

For the same price, a PC will have about twice the performance, with a shitload of free stuff (like a monitor, Windows XP, etc.).

You get Windows XP Home, which doesn't come with nearly as much stuff out of the box as OS X. As for a monitor, whatever. Pick up a cheap 19" CRT. I paid $240 for mine.

Macs are awesome for making pics. Other than that, they suck.

Don't forget audio engineering.
And scientific computing (an area where the G5 completely outclasses anything Intel has to offer and bests *nix workstations, as well).
And video editing.
And compositing (you can bet Shake will fly on a G5).
And 3D rendering.
And video encoding.

As much as I love hasty PC user generalizations about the useful applications of the most popular *nix on the planet coupled with a 64-bit processor that keeps very good pace with the best the x86 world has to offer, you'll have to actually use one before you make such statements. Hell, most PC users don't even know why Macs are better for graphics work; they just assume that's the case.

I use Macs at school.

Macs were a total pos, up until about 2 years ago, when they made several critical jumps. They are getting better and better. These days, I could actually survive using a Mac as a main computer. But I stiill prefer PCs.

School Macs tend to be pieces of shit compared with what the company is currently producing, the schools buy them simply because they get good deals which are probably the result of Mac needing to clear out warehouse space.

Sea Skimmer wrote:School Macs tend to be pieces of shit compared with what the company is currently producing, the schools buy them simply because they get good deals which are probably the result of Mac needing to clear out warehouse space.

I know. But my school just bought an 800 mhz G4 tower with Jaguar, and my computer teacher lets me use it exclusively. It is awesome compared to the old crappy 200 mhz iMacs. Macs are getting a lot better.

HemlockGrey wrote:Enlighten me. Why are Macs better for graphics work?

There are a couple of reasons. One, now anyway, is Photoshop performance. Up until today, PC's were smacking G4's down fairly handily; the G5 changed that. For the majority of time though, Macs were always faster at Photoshop.

The other is color correction. ColorSync's engine is far superior to what Windows has, so a tuned Mac will always produce better color on output than a tuned Windows box.

Rumours are that the iSight actually has true autofocus and a 1/4" CCD. If that's true, $150 is a fricking steal for that price - but I somehow doubt it's a real autofocus.

YT300000 wrote:Macs were a total pos, up until about 2 years ago, when they made several critical jumps. They are getting better and better. These days, I could actually survive using a Mac as a main computer. But I stiill prefer PCs.

There have always been good Macs, but they were almost always intended for the high-end markets. (Things like the Quadra line, the high-end PPC series, the IIFX, etc.)

Durandal wrote:Don't forget audio engineering.

OTOH, that bakeoff versus Cubase was just silly.

And scientific computing (an area where the G5 completely outclasses anything Intel has to offer and bests *nix workstations, as well).

I hear EPIC is actually doing well in that arena, tho.

phongn wrote: 3. Apple shows off an early version of OS X 10.3. Looks nice, some new features. The usual $129 fee applies.

And most WinBlows is only $99

4. iChat AV is an extention to their IM client for easy videoconferencing. Will be included with OSX 10.3, otherwise it's $29

5. Apple shows off their new webcam which is actually rather nice. It can stream a full 640x480@30fps and has an F/2.8 lens. Pricey, though, at $150 and requires iChat AV at the moment.

Uh, what was this about Micro$oft being evil? Apple builds a
webcam which only works with their computer and requires
proprietary Apple provided software you have to pay $30 bucks
for to work, and they don't get called to the mat? God forbid M$
would try this....they'd get flamed to a crisp.

phongn wrote:Rumours are that the iSight actually has true autofocus and a 1/4" CCD. If that's true, $150 is a fricking steal for that price - but I somehow doubt it's a real autofocus.

If it has a high-quality CCD sensor and has a real good set of genuine glass lenses, it'd just about be worth that price.

MKSheppard wrote:

phongn wrote: 3. Apple shows off an early version of OS X 10.3. Looks nice, some new features. The usual $129 fee applies.

And most WinBlows is only $99

Windows 2000 and Windows XP are considerably more than $99. WME/W98/WXP Home are in a different league from OS X.

Uh, what was this about Micro$oft being evil? Apple builds a
webcam which only works with their computer and requires
proprietary Apple provided software you have to pay $30 bucks
for to work, and they don't get called to the mat? God forbid M$
would try this....they'd get flamed to a crisp.

I never said that this would only work with Macs or with iChat AV - only that at the moment it does. It may just act like a FireWire camera device and you need iChat AV to use Apple's teleconferencing software, I have to do a bit of research.

MKSheppard wrote:

phongn wrote: 3. Apple shows off an early version of OS X 10.3. Looks nice, some new features. The usual $129 fee applies.

And most WinBlows is only $99

4. iChat AV is an extention to their IM client for easy videoconferencing. Will be included with OSX 10.3, otherwise it's $29

5. Apple shows off their new webcam which is actually rather nice. It can stream a full 640x480@30fps and has an F/2.8 lens. Pricey, though, at $150 and requires iChat AV at the moment.

Uh, what was this about Micro$oft being evil? Apple builds a
webcam which only works with their computer and requires
proprietary Apple provided software you have to pay $30 bucks
for to work, and they don't get called to the mat? God forbid M$
would try this....they'd get flamed to a crisp.

MS would if they make hardware, but they don't, except for mice, keyboards, NICs, and the X-Box. And they hire other contractors to make those. Fortunately those are already reverse engineered for use with Linux, though I don't know about the NIC. Those winmodems are annoying though.

[obligatory]

New g5s

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!

[/obligatory]

kojikun wrote:[obligatory]

New g5s

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!

[/obligatory]

This isn't /.

phongn wrote:OTOH, that bakeoff versus Cubase was just silly.

Just a bit, yes. It more showed off the audio capabilities of the platform and not the raw processing power of the chip itself. CoreAudio's ultra-low latencies really shine in stuff like that.

MKSheppard wrote:And most WinBlows is only $99

Let's not compare OEM software to retail, okay? OEM software has no support.

Uh, what was this about Micro$oft being evil? Apple builds a webcam which only works with their computer and requires proprietary Apple provided software you have to pay $30 bucks for to work, and they don't get called to the mat? God forbid M$ would try this....they'd get flamed to a crisp.

Read the "at the moment" part, genius. iChat AV is a beta at the moment, and it a free download which expires on December 31st. Once the software goes gold, it'll probably ship with the camera. As of now, it'd be a bad idea to ship a timed beta with a product.

Durandal wrote: Let's not compare OEM software to retail, okay? OEM software has no support.

From COMP USA:

Windows® XP Home Edition Upgrade (PC)
Product Number:285712
Brand: Microsoft
$99.99

Really, everyone has Windows these days. You only need a CD of a previous windows version to do a fresh install with the upgrade

Once the software goes gold, it'll probably ship with the camera. As of now, it'd be a bad idea to ship a timed beta with a product.

And you end up having to PAY for it if you're an early adopter

MKSheppard wrote:From COMP USA:

Windows® XP Home Edition Upgrade (PC)
Product Number:285712
Brand: Microsoft
$99.99

Really, everyone has Windows these days. You only need a CD of a previous windows version to do a fresh install with the upgrade

Yet the $129 version of Panther is not an upgrade, so your comparison is completely unfair. Windows XP Home is $199, and Windows XP Pro (which is more comparable to the feature set Apple ships with OS X) is $299. Having to install a previous version doesn't count as a full version.

And you end up having to PAY for it if you're an early adopter

How the Hell do you know? For all you know, Apple may keep a registered database of users and will give them all a copy of iChat AV. And the camera has other uses aside from video conferencing. It's a FireWire camera, and any application that takes data from the FireWire port can capture video and audio from it. It's sole use is not iChat.

Durandal wrote:Having to install a previous version doesn't count as a full version.

You haven't even looked at a PC lately?

*takes out upgrade CD and walks to blank fresh computer with no OS...inserts bootdisk into A:

Loads the Windows XP Update CD into the drive and runs setup.

Places Windows 98SE CD into CD Drive when XP Setup asks for
a previous version of Windows.

Puts the XP CD back in after the verification is over and XP is installed
fresh onto a freshly formatted HDD...

You're going to tell me next that this system which I've been using for
the last 4 years doesn't work?

MKSheppard wrote:You haven't even looked at a PC lately?

*takes out upgrade CD and walks to blank fresh computer with no OS...inserts bootdisk into A:

Loads the Windows XP Update CD into the drive and runs setup.

Places Windows 98SE CD into CD Drive when XP Setup asks for
a previous version of Windows.

So you have to keep your previous version? That's ridiculous. What if you lose it? Whoops, you're fucked. An upgrade is not a full fucking install, moron. Why do you think Microsoft sell separate versions? Your comparison is absurd. One is a full version that does not require any previous versions; the other is an upgrade that requires previous versions. I can't make this any clearer for you.

Durandal wrote: So you have to keep your previous version? That's ridiculous. What if you lose it? Whoops, you're fucked.

*points to two copies of win98SE, and two different Windows 95
CDs*

You were saying?

And you fucking dumbshit, if an upgrade isn't a FULL INSTALL, then why
the fuck does my computer seem to run just fine then with everything?

An upgrade, license-wise, is not a full install, and that's what matters here.

It's worthwhile to note that you can't get a Mac without MacOS, so every new version is really an upgrade...