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I like AD&D. I've played both. It seems to me, however, that they redesigned the 3rd ed to make it more "exciting", i.e. to make super-powerful characters.

Its bloody easy to make potions, scrolls, and items for the wizards. Incredible feats let Fighters take down twelve enemies at once (Using the new rules I felled 18 dark elves thanks to an enlarge spell and Great Cleave.) The worst, though, is any race can take any class. Dwarven Wizards? Halfling rangers?

Sorry if it sounds like a rant. I enjoy both, but if I had to choose one, it would be my 2nd Ed.

And not just because I own all of Spelljammer.

Anyone else got a vote?

3rd. There was a similar thread awhile ago which turned into a flamefest because people could not understand that 3rd's to-hit/AC system is much simpler than THAC0. Which is one reason I prefer 3rd, THAC0 was silly and unnecessarily complex. I also prefer the freedom of 3rd's Skills and Feats, less restrictions on race and class and so on.

THAC0 was a relatively simple system that made sense. It was easy enough to learn and without any real hangups until you hit the higher levels when it became a little too easy.

3rd Ed is a horribly generic system that has lost its flavour.

JediNeophyte wrote:3rd. There was a similar thread awhile ago which turned into a flamefest because people could not understand that 3rd's to-hit/AC system is much simpler than THAC0. Which is one reason I prefer 3rd, THAC0 was silly and unnecessarily complex. I also prefer the freedom of 3rd's Skills and Feats, less restrictions on race and class and so on.

We weren't contesting that 3rd eds system is an improvement, we were just pointing out that the THAC0 system wasn't anywhere near as complex or unweildy as you've made it out to be.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, 3rd Ed has become a munchkin fest. It's "Skills & Powers" on steriods. Any sensible DM should be tweaking those rules until they start making sense again. Dwarven Wizards? Not unless you're from Greyhawk. Tiefling and other "Plane-touched" characters? Keep them where they belong, on the planes, not the prime-material.

JediNeophyte wrote:3rd. There was a similar thread awhile ago which turned into a flamefest because people could not understand that 3rd's to-hit/AC system is much simpler than THAC0. Which is one reason I prefer 3rd, THAC0 was silly and unnecessarily complex. I also prefer the freedom of 3rd's Skills and Feats, less restrictions on race and class and so on.

We weren't contesting that 3rd eds system is an improvement, we were just pointing out that the THAC0 system wasn't anywhere near as complex or unweildy as you've made it out to be.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, 3rd Ed has become a munchkin fest. It's "Skills & Powers" on steriods. Any sensible DM should be tweaking those rules until they start making sense again. Dwarven Wizards? Not unless you're from Greyhawk. Tiefling and other "Plane-touched" characters? Keep them where they belong, on the planes, not the prime-material.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:snippy snip...Anyone else got a vote?

3rd. N00bs like myself can remotely understand what's happening. Mind you, this is all based on PC games that use 2nd or 3rd ed rules...

I like using 3rd. it lets me be a munchkin.

with my cousin gm, my 4th level fighter cleared a gnoll fortress by himself.

I rather play 2nd edition (on the rare occasion I stoop to playing AD&D).

3rd edition isn't such a big improvement over 2nd that I'd waste money on buying it.

Archaic` wrote:

JediNeophyte wrote:3rd. There was a similar thread awhile ago which turned into a flamefest because people could not understand that 3rd's to-hit/AC system is much simpler than THAC0. Which is one reason I prefer 3rd, THAC0 was silly and unnecessarily complex. I also prefer the freedom of 3rd's Skills and Feats, less restrictions on race and class and so on.

We weren't contesting that 3rd eds system is an improvement, we were just pointing out that the THAC0 system wasn't anywhere near as complex or unweildy as you've made it out to be.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, 3rd Ed has become a munchkin fest. It's "Skills & Powers" on steriods. Any sensible DM should be tweaking those rules until they start making sense again. Dwarven Wizards? Not unless you're from Greyhawk. Tiefling and other "Plane-touched" characters? Keep them where they belong, on the planes, not the prime-material.

And this, of course, is strictly your opinion.

Speaking as both a DM and as a player, I like the improved strength of characters in the 3E game - it lets them do things at first level that would actually impress people (and nothing sucks worse in 2E than rolling one hit point for your first-level fighter). The skill system is actually intuitive (you don't suddenly get orders of magnitude WORSE at something the second you learn how to do it right - based on the 2E skill rules, I was a better driver BEFORE I took Driver's Ed than AFTER), also, and Feats - while I would have balanced them with a disads system - are quite useful in customizing a character. A Rogue with the Dodge and Mobility feats is going to be very different from a Rogue with the Cleave and Power Attack feats (the former is probably going to be an agile acrobat, the latter a tough brawler).

People always seem to blame 3E system's potential for abuse (due to customizability of Feats and Skill Points) as a huge downfall.

It's not. The system itself is much better due to streamlined and logical improvements. The emphasis now is on the game designers to come up with balanced Feats, Skills, special abilities, and whatnot. Think of the system as a skeleton and everything else as the flesh. This system is one of the best systems out there. It's how well (or poorly) you utilize that system that makes or breaks the game.

3rd is a better rules-base, 2nd has better settings. 3rd's focus on making it easier for noob DM's to make up worlds is very nice, but 2nd's richly detailed worlds are too good to let go of. Of course, in this case, one can have one's cake and eat it too.

All you must do is convert the characters and monsters... magical items and whatnot and you can very easily use the richly detailed settings of 2nd ed

I vote 3rd. I like being able to customize my characters. I can be a power gamer depending on whether my party is doing so(we do have campaigns specifically for munchkinism) But I dont like the level restricts for classes, and the race liits. A dwarf wizard can be fucking cool...

Give them time, and they'll get the 2nd ed campaign worlds converted. I believe I saw a REALMS campaign for 3rd.

Tweaking is a definite must for 3rd. I had a player who wanted to be a Dwarven Wizard, so I made him be a rune-wizard. Its from the second ed Skills & Powers, the school of geometry. He had to draw out glyphs and runes to activate magic spells. Turned into a pretty good character, a scholarly type.

I allowed a half-orc sorcerrer once. THAT was a mistake.