StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Without spoiling anything, the way Relic extends the story in Homeworld 2 is quite lame. The whole hyperspace core thing is silly, the new mothership they build looks just like the last one, and apparently Hiigara has no defense against the Taiidan empire. At least they remembered that the Bentusi are nearly extinct... but the whole think kinda reeks.
I know you shouldn't judge a story by the start, but making the cores central to the plot after the one in HW was a frickin copy is dumb.. especially since people without one of the Holy Hyper Trinity can STILL use hyperspace.
The plot in HW was a refreshing change from your average RTS nonsense, but HW2 doesn't seem to stand up to its example. Whats everyone else think?

Stark wrote:Without spoiling anything, the way Relic extends the story in Homeworld 2 is quite lame. The whole hyperspace core thing is silly, the new mothership they build looks just like the last one, and apparently Hiigara has no defense against the Taiidan empire. At least they remembered that the Bentusi are nearly extinct... but the whole think kinda reeks.
I know you shouldn't judge a story by the start, but making the cores central to the plot after the one in HW was a frickin copy is dumb.. especially since people without one of the Holy Hyper Trinity can STILL use hyperspace.
The plot in HW was a refreshing change from your average RTS nonsense, but HW2 doesn't seem to stand up to its example. Whats everyone else think?

I'd say it's a perfect, logical continuation of what they were doing to the HW1 plot starting with Cataclysm.

In itself, it's a good game (like Catacylsm). Compared to HW1 it doesn't hold up (like Cataclysm). The biggest problem is the whole core thing. If not for that, the game's story would work pretty well, wouldn't it?

It actually starts making some sense as you play through the game. It's still fucking stupid, but it's not as fucking stupid. Just remember that Alex Garden isn't in charge this time around (and he wasn't for Cataclysm, either, he was busy working on Impossible Creatures, which is supposed to REALLY suck), and there is a WHOLE NEW DEV TEAM, for which we can likely thank Sierra.

Hotfoot wrote:I'd say it's a perfect, logical continuation of what they were doing to the HW1 plot starting with Cataclysm.

In itself, it's a good game (like Catacylsm). Compared to HW1 it doesn't hold up (like Cataclysm). The biggest problem is the whole core thing. If not for that, the game's story would work pretty well, wouldn't it?

It actually starts making some sense as you play through the game. It's still fucking stupid, but it's not as fucking stupid. Just remember that Alex Garden isn't in charge this time around (and he wasn't for Cataclysm, either, he was busy working on Impossible Creatures, which is supposed to REALLY suck), and there is a WHOLE NEW DEV TEAM, for which we can likely thank Sierra.

I appreciate the scope of the story, but aside from the shockingly lame core thing (and it seems pretty central to the story), the storytelling straightjacket that means you must control one mothership on a quest to save your people etc means the opening elements of the story are lame, like the quick defeat of your people, the design of the mothership, the lack of a standing fleet built on HW and HW:C technology...
And because I'm not very far into the game (just going to Gehenna), I'm interested to know how the story could exist at all, if not for the cores. Reading about the plot before release, I assumed the Vaygr were your evil twin exiles, who want their homeworld back too.
Big question for everyone. What is so good about the cores? Ships without them can jump. Your little destroyers can keep up with the mothership. Building new ones isn't an issue. So how did the 'dark core' do anything to the Taiidan? Or should I just finish the damn game?

Stark wrote:I appreciate the scope of the story, but aside from the shockingly lame core thing (and it seems pretty central to the story), the storytelling straightjacket that means you must control one mothership on a quest to save your people etc means the opening elements of the story are lame, like the quick defeat of your people, the design of the mothership, the lack of a standing fleet built on HW and HW:C technology...
And because I'm not very far into the game (just going to Gehenna), I'm interested to know how the story could exist at all, if not for the cores. Reading about the plot before release, I assumed the Vaygr were your evil twin exiles, who want their homeworld back too.
Big question for everyone. What is so good about the cores? Ships without them can jump. Your little destroyers can keep up with the mothership. Building new ones isn't an issue. So how did the 'dark core' do anything to the Taiidan? Or should I just finish the damn game?

DO YOU SEE!?

*coughs*

Seriously though, check out multiplayer. The Mothership/Carriers emit a sort a "master field" which lets other big ships generate their own little "me too" waves along with the big mothership. I assume this is how they explain it in SP as well.

Hotfoot wrote:DO YOU SEE!?

*coughs*

Seriously though, check out multiplayer. The Mothership/Carriers emit a sort a "master field" which lets other big ships generate their own little "me too" waves along with the big mothership. I assume this is how they explain it in SP as well.

But what about the HW nebula guys? GAH! *sigh*

And I'd rather the Taiidan mothership was propelled through hyperspace by The Dark. At least then you know why they're so mean.
BTW, love your techical terms
I'm just waiting for my favourite mods to go HW2, so I can play Macross again... and I guess I'll just have to finish the game to appreciate the loss of the original writer.

The Cores allow for long-distance jumps. Ships without them (or a nearby one) can only do relatively short-ranged jumps; you can slave to a Far Jumper to do a long-distance jump.

Hiigara does have a defense fleet and it's seen getting its ass beat later on.

phongn wrote:Hiigara does have a defense fleet and it's seen getting its ass beat later on.

Hiigara is shown being bombarded near the start... where's the fleet then? Shouldn't the Hiigarans have pulled their fleet back to protect the homeworld, and the mothership?

Stark wrote:Without spoiling anything, the way Relic extends the story in Homeworld 2 is quite lame. The whole hyperspace core thing is silly, the new mothership they build looks just like the last one, and apparently Hiigara has no defense against the Taiidan empire. At least they remembered that the Bentusi are nearly extinct... but the whole think kinda reeks.
I know you shouldn't judge a story by the start, but making the cores central to the plot after the one in HW was a frickin copy is dumb.. especially since people without one of the Holy Hyper Trinity can STILL use hyperspace.
The plot in HW was a refreshing change from your average RTS nonsense, but HW2 doesn't seem to stand up to its example. Whats everyone else think?

Originaly I was fearful that Relic was going to ignore Cataclysm because they disliked it so much. Its even worse. They ignore Cataclysm and ignore parts of the original as well. Relic has no fucking ground to stand on for disliking Cataclysm when they can't even stay with their own fucking story. Cataclysm did a better job keeping to the story then HW2 does.

ATM I consider Homeworld 2 to be spererate from the first two games. It comes from a similar universe, but attempting to explain away the differences makes the first game seem to lame.

Hotfoot wrote:

Stark wrote:Without spoiling anything, the way Relic extends the story in Homeworld 2 is quite lame. The whole hyperspace core thing is silly, the new mothership they build looks just like the last one, and apparently Hiigara has no defense against the Taiidan empire. At least they remembered that the Bentusi are nearly extinct... but the whole think kinda reeks.
I know you shouldn't judge a story by the start, but making the cores central to the plot after the one in HW was a frickin copy is dumb.. especially since people without one of the Holy Hyper Trinity can STILL use hyperspace.
The plot in HW was a refreshing change from your average RTS nonsense, but HW2 doesn't seem to stand up to its example. Whats everyone else think?

I'd say it's a perfect, logical continuation of what they were doing to the HW1 plot starting with Cataclysm.

In itself, it's a good game (like Catacylsm). Compared to HW1 it doesn't hold up (like Cataclysm). The biggest problem is the whole core thing. If not for that, the game's story would work pretty well, wouldn't it?

It actually starts making some sense as you play through the game. It's still fucking stupid, but it's not as fucking stupid. Just remember that Alex Garden isn't in charge this time around (and he wasn't for Cataclysm, either, he was busy working on Impossible Creatures, which is supposed to REALLY suck), and there is a WHOLE NEW DEV TEAM, for which we can likely thank Sierra.

Not this again Hotfoot. Your best attempts at criticism against Cataclysm is that the Kushan were not to be the Exiles. Technology gripping isn't even worth mentioning. HW2 attacks the established canon much more savgely then you could even claim Cataclysm ever did.

Alyeska wrote:Not this again Hotfoot. Your best attempts at criticism against Cataclysm is that the Kushan were not to be the Exiles. Technology gripping isn't even worth mentioning. HW2 attacks the established canon much more savgely then you could even claim Cataclysm ever did.

Yes, you are right. The primary reason being that they are basing the entire plot around a abd concept, which I will admit Cataclysm did not do. However, HW2 also does play positively on plot elements from HW1 more than Cataclysm ever did as well, so it's a double-edged sword. The fact of the matter is that both games pick and choose which parts of HW1 they want to be faithful to, and which parts they don't so that their own takes on the HW universe can work.

HWC (plotwise) was acknowledged to have happened, but the special technologies in it have not been acknowledged.

I'm annoyed at the plot as well, seeing as how they ignored certain key aspects of HW1 (like, I dunno, that the core is a copy of the one found in the Kar-Toba).

I was hoping to build the multibeam frigates from HW1 and HWC (HW1's multibeams were the best!!!) I also wonder why the hell they didn't keep the Dreadnaught design from HWC.

phongn wrote:I'm annoyed at the plot as well, seeing as how they ignored certain key aspects of HW1 (like, I dunno, that the core is a copy of the one found in the Kar-Toba).

Actually, it turns out that we are ALL wrong. On careful re-reading of the Homeworld 1 manual, I have discovered a critical piece of text which should solve this problem once and for all.

The duplication was of the Hyperspace Module of the Kjar-Toba, not the Hyperspace Core. The Module itself is what is needed in order to control and manipulate the Hyperspace Core, and the needs of a specific module would be determined by the ship it was mounted on. Modules in and of themselves can provide short-jump FTL with sufficient sophistication, but long-jump FTL requires a Hyperspace Core at the heart of the Hyperspace Module or proximity to the Hyperspace Core.

The core itself is never mentioned in HW1, just the module. It's entirely possible that it was omitted in order to avoid speculation on the subject.

So, in short, the module can be just a copy without a problem. There is no mention of duplicating the core, however, so HW2 just barely avoids contradicting HW1 in this matter.

edit: Also, the fact that the module was copied was not really "key" to HW1's story. It was never fleshed out in the SP campaign, no major plot points hinged around it, it was just a means to give the Exiles FTL travel. The fact that they HAD a hyperspace core to study/use was key, whether or not they copied it is trivial.

I meant key as in the continuity. I need to reinstall HW1 to see if any of the cutscenese mention the core itself, though.

But yes, if it's a module then they probably just scaled it up to better control the greater mass of the Mothership and perhaps for better safety margins since they didn't really know WTF they were doing.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I was hoping to build the multibeam frigates from HW1 and HWC (HW1's multibeams were the best!!!) I also wonder why the hell they didn't keep the Dreadnaught design from HWC.

Actually, if you look at HW1's DN, you could make an extrapolation that they used the HWC DN as the 'back' while extending the hull forward. No more missiles, but you can see the two twin ion cannon are still in place.

HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

phongn wrote:I meant key as in the continuity.

Well hell, if that's the case, then Cataclysm is a much greater offender of HW continuity, it manages to contradict HW1 on several different areas, and even manage contradict itself in the manual.

For a blatantly obvious contradiction of HW tech and capabilities in Catacylsm, I refer you to the following (emphasis added):
"Short of the fantasy of an all powerful energy shield..." -Homeworld Manual, page 15
"the Sentinel was originally intended as an advanced mobile sensor platform. Unfortunately, as more and more design features were added to the Sentinel's specs, it quickly outpaced the control capability of even the most advanced AI. The final breaking point came when energy scientists came up with a compact force-field generator and added it to the Sentinel's systems...proving that powerful guns, long range sensors and a field generator could all function in one very small craft." -Homeworld: Cataclysm Manual, page 89

As for an example of Cataclysm contradicting itself, I would think that this cinches it (again, emphasis mine):
"Note: All Taiidani vessels carry the codename given to them by Hiigaran Fleet Intelligence." -Homeworld: Cataclysm Manual, page 107
"The Skaal is one of the most deadliest predators that roam the southern wastes of Kharak...Though it masses nearly ten times that of an average Taiidani, it is still able to keep up with a warrior at full run." -Homeworld: Cataclysm Manual, page 108
"The design sequence was so rapid that the frigate entered frontline service still under its project name, 'Weapon X', but within days of its first combat trials, crews had renamed the frigate 'Sajuuk Cor'--an ancient phrase that translates roughly into 'God's Wrath'." -Homeworld: Cataclysm Manual, page 113

I need to reinstall HW1 to see if any of the cutscenese mention the core itself, though.

To my knowledge, the Core is never mentioned in the game.

But yes, if it's a module then they probably just scaled it up to better control the greater mass of the Mothership and perhaps for better safety margins since they didn't really know WTF they were doing.

Exactly. Now, I have issues with HW2's story myself. I will gladly say I don't like the direction it's taken, but we do need to be objective about this. There is quite enough to lambast HW2's plot on even without the detail of the core/module thing anyway.

And then there's the music. It's good, I like it, but some of it just does not fit.

Anyway, I blasted through Missions 01-08 yesterday in one sitting, took a break to play some HW2 online with a friend, and then I'll get back to playing to see if they clarify the storyline at all.

By the way, so far the game has been exceptionally easy, with only minor trouble points along the way. I've unintentionally caused myself far more difficulty through a stupid mistake concerning my harvesting operation (I sent it into a radioactive dust cloud unintentionally (and yes, manually, they didn't wander into it) and lost 14 workers + 2 refineries, had to retire my fighter and corvette wings to try and rebuild my workers and keep my fleet running. I was back up to full capacity by the next mission with no difficulty.

HW1 was MUCH harder. The Garden and Cathedral missions were brutally difficult, and only five missions (1/3 of the total missions) into the game. Here I've breezed through eight missions (1/2 of the total missions) and never had to restart a mission once. I even restarted HW's original campaign from the beginning because the third mission was such a monumental pain in the ass.

phongn wrote:HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

The White Kadeshi Multibeam Frigates? Not full powered? I think you need a refresher run. There were four ion cannons on those babies, and if they weren't identical to normal Ion Cannons, they were pretty darn close (the biggest downside, IIRC, was that they had shorter range and were slower). The damage they did was much higher than a single ICF.

I meant that individual ones were not as powerful as the spinal ICF mount. Check the actual ship definition files if you don't believe me.

Hotfoot wrote:For a blatantly obvious contradiction of HW tech and capabilities in Catacylsm, I refer you to the following (emphasis added):
"Short of the fantasy of an all powerful energy shield..." -Homeworld Manual, page 15

Have you tried the Defense Field Frigate? IIRC, that's a pretty damn powerful shield, so it appears to be an engineering issue that they eventually solved, first with the Sentinal array and then with a single sphere-projecting frigate.

As for an example of Cataclysm contradicting itself, I would think that this cinches it (again, emphasis mine):
"Note: All Taiidani vessels carry the codename given to them by Hiigaran Fleet Intelligence." -Homeworld: Cataclysm Manual, page 107

There's no reason that Fleet Intelligence could not give a codename that happened to correspond with the actual name of the other ship.

And then there's the music. It's good, I like it, but some of it just does not fit.

Music is good, but HW1's is better, especially Barber's Adagio for Strings and the way it is used.

HW1 was MUCH harder. The Garden and Cathedral missions were brutally difficult, and only five missions (1/3 of the total missions) into the game. Here I've breezed through eight missions (1/2 of the total missions) and never had to restart a mission once. I even restarted HW's original campaign from the beginning because the third mission was such a monumental pain in the ass.

I found HW2 much harder than HW1. The Garden and Cathedral missions in particular didn't give me much trouble at all, just time.

phongn wrote:Have you tried the Defense Field Frigate? IIRC, that's a pretty damn powerful shield, so it appears to be an engineering issue that they eventually solved, first with the Sentinal array and then with a single sphere-projecting frigate.

The DFF doesn't use an energy shield, it uses a powerful magnetic field to deflect mass driver rounds. Note that it doesn't work against missiles, mines, or ion cannons. It's a huge leap to go from something that has a scientific basis in reality to the true fantasy of the sentinels uber-shield which doesn't even work on the same principle as the defense field frigate.

There's no reason that Fleet Intelligence could not give a codename that happened to correspond with the actual name of the other ship.

Oh come on. The first example shows that it's clearly a description from the Taiidan perspective, and directly links the name to a beast of Kharak. The second one shows that the crews named the ship, not fleet command. Why would fleet command break from the naming structure that is consistant with the rest of the ships in this special case, and moreover, how did they know the name of that ship but none of the others?

And then there's the music. It's good, I like it, but some of it just does not fit.

Music is good, but HW1's is better, especially Barber's Adagio for Strings and the way it is used. [/quote]
Yes.

I found HW2 much harder than HW1. The Garden and Cathedral missions in particular didn't give me much trouble at all, just time.

Those missions suckerpunched me, and have caused one of my friends to give up on the game entirely. HW2, in comparison, is a breeze so far.

Hotfoot wrote:The DFF doesn't use an energy shield, it uses a powerful magnetic field to deflect mass driver rounds. Note that it doesn't work against missiles, mines, or ion cannons. It's a huge leap to go from something that has a scientific basis in reality to the true fantasy of the sentinels uber-shield which doesn't even work on the same principle as the defense field frigate.

The DFF works against other things in HW2, though I haven't tested it in combat yet.

Oh come on. The first example shows that it's clearly a description from the Taiidan perspective, and directly links the name to a beast of Kharak. The second one shows that the crews named the ship, not fleet command. Why would fleet command break from the naming structure that is consistant with the rest of the ships in this special case, and moreover, how did they know the name of that ship but none of the others?

The West has done similar things with Soviet/Russian warships, so it is not without precedent. Just odd.

I found HW2 much harder than HW1. The Garden and Cathedral missions in particular didn't give me much trouble at all, just time.

Those missions suckerpunched me, and have caused one of my friends to give up on the game entirely. HW2, in comparison, is a breeze so far.[/quote]
Strangely, I didn't find that much trouble with them. I just rolled with the punch, started hunting swarmers and capturing enemy ships for fun and profit.

Ok Hotfoot, we aren't going to solve our differences by shouting CATACLYSM ROCKS and CATACLYSM SUCKS! So why not just list everything you either disliked about Cataclysm as pertains to HW, everything that just didn't fit, and everything that just felt wrong or out of place. Then we can work from there.

phongn wrote:The DFF works against other things in HW2, though I haven't tested it in combat yet.

I'll run a test, but even if they did tweak it in HW2, it's still not an all-powerful energy shield like the Sentinel's was, and it certainly doesn't alter the fact that basic operating principles of the defense field and the sentinel shield are about as similar as faster-than light lasers and machineguns.

The West has done similar things with Soviet/Russian warships, so it is not without precedent. Just odd.

There's a difference: we all live on the same planet. We have a shared experience and history. Also, our languages are different: from what I've read in the Homeworld Manuals, "Sajuuk Cor" is a Hiigaran (exile) phrase, not an Imperial one.

Let's also not forget that the exiles spend what, one or two thousand years by themselves? Time enough to forget the language of their ancestors that landed on the planet.

Strangely, I didn't find that much trouble with them. I just rolled with the punch, started hunting swarmers and capturing enemy ships for fun and profit.

I eventually beat them, in good time, but they still were very hard in comparison to the missions beforehand (and some of the missions after).

Alyeska wrote:Ok Hotfoot, we aren't going to solve our differences by shouting CATACLYSM ROCKS and CATACLYSM SUCKS!

We also won't solve anything by shouting "HW2 SUCKS". I've already listed a point where Cataclysm blatantly contradicts Homeworld on a level greater than the Hyperspace Core thing everyone has been ragging on HW2 for. While I think I've found a way to explain the apparent discrepancy between HW2 and the original, there is no explanation at all for the liberties taken in Cataclysm, other than the tired old "it's been 15 years, of course they've made changes" line. That doesn't explain why things that are stated to be flat out impossible in HW1 even EXIST just fifteen years later, and not just exist, but are battle-proven designs that work marvelously.

So why not just list everything you either disliked about Cataclysm as pertains to HW, everything that just didn't fit, and everything that just felt wrong or out of place. Then we can work from there.

Please read the thread.

The fact still remains that HW2 directly uses and extrapolates on a lot of the story from HW1, and so in that sense manages to stay true to the story of the first game. Cataclysm takes liberties all over the place and its story, while giving us an interesting look into what the kiith structure is like, does not play up on the previous game as much as it just makes its own story which is pretty much independant of the original plot.

I think the largest problem is that with both HW1 and Cataclysm, they shipped with detailed backstories in their manuals. HW2 lacks this, and so any questions the player has go entirely unanswered.

Hotfoot wrote:The fact still remains that HW2 directly uses and extrapolates on a lot of the story from HW1, and so in that sense manages to stay true to the story of the first game. Cataclysm takes liberties all over the place and its story, while giving us an interesting look into what the kiith structure is like, does not play up on the previous game as much as it just makes its own story which is pretty much independant of the original plot.

I think the largest problem is that with both HW1 and Cataclysm, they shipped with detailed backstories in their manuals. HW2 lacks this, and so any questions the player has go entirely unanswered.

(emphasis mine)
This is the important point. HW:C had a pretty crazy story when it came to continuity, but it was so far removed both topically and narratively that it wasn't as significant. HW2 attempts to extend the original story of the Hiigaran exiles, and so is more easily critisized with regards to the overall story. [/b]