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They were having some kind of regional gameplayers' championships at Playdium in Mississauga today, and I happened to pass through. When you watch FPS games on XBox compared to FPS games on PC, it's just pitiful. The shitty control scheme slows down the game pace like you wouldn't believe, and when you see it side by side, it's just sad.

Watching a bunch of guys with lightning-quick moves on UT2003 with keyboard+mouse on PC and a bunch of guys (top gamers, no less) putzing around with gamepads on Halo is just fucking embarrassing for the console people.

Its almost like watching Quake 2 beside Wolfenstein 3D.

It's sad indeed, though you are right, the controls are the big kicker.... PC's tend to have more omph, though consoles have the advantage in optimization (lazy ass programmers not withstanding).

Its so self-evidently one-sided that it was accepted wisdom that FPS's sucked on consoles... until XBoxers hyped Halo into shooter godhood. Now, some gamers actually try to argue that FPS's are BETTER on a console!!

And I don't think the controls are the worst part - until very recently, console shooters were forced into split-screening, so all the players could see everyone elses screens. Ever try an ambush like that? On N64, I'd stare at a wall and watch everyone else until someone walked by...

We're really comparing Oranges to tangerines, here, I think. HALO was designed for the Xbox, and ONLY the xbox, I think, right? I think HALO on PC controls would be a bit too precise. I rather like the console control scheme for that particular game. Not that it's not going to be awesome on PC, but the controller scheme works well, IMHO. I've beatean the game on legendary with a control pad. Could I have done it on PC, sure, I suppose so. But I wouldn't go so far as to say FPS are better on Console, no way, after all, the whole genre was built on the keyboard/mouse scheme.
So, to each his own, I say. Hook up a control pad to a PC FPS game and put said controller guy in Q3 or UT2K3 (Or whatever is popular now) and the controller guy will get owned, unless he pulls the classic, "Jump like a mad daemon shooting rockets at the ground hoping to hit somone by accident" Technique.
(I personally prefer AvP2: Primal Hunt, it's quite fun. I also like Tribes 2, but that's neither here nor there.)

Chardok wrote:We're really comparing Oranges to tangerines, here, I think. HALO was designed for the Xbox, and ONLY the xbox, I think, right?

I have a picture of three Master Chiefs in a warthog on the back of my VooDoo5 5500 box. Halo was originally designed for PC, but MS put a stop to that when they grabbed Bungie.

Well, I stand molested

TheFeniX wrote:Halo was originally designed for PC, but MS put a stop to that when they grabbed Bungie.

If I might correct you, it was designed first for Mac AND PC. Bungie was a company that always catered towards the Mac crowd, until MS got 'em.

Fuck Bungie for whoring out to MS and denying us what could have been the most revolutionary FPS of all time. They scrapped all the good stuff while porting it to the XBox, then ported it over to the PC, adding little more than enhanced multiplayer and higher resolutions.

Goldeneye rocked, though. It wasn't that hard to control. I would fuck myself if Rare ported it to the PC and enhanced the hell out of it.

DPDarkPrimus wrote:If I might correct you, it was designed first for Mac AND PC. Bungie was a company that always catered towards the Mac crowd, until MS got 'em.

Pfft, everyone knows that MACs aren't worth mentioning when it comes to gaming. Haha, just kidding. Yes, I did leave that out. Didn't think it was relevant, I stand corrected.

Hamel wrote:Fuck Bungie for whoring out to MS and denying us what could have been the most revolutionary FPS of all time. They scrapped all the good stuff while porting it to the XBox, then ported it over to the PC, adding little more than enhanced multiplayer and higher resolutions

From what I've read, Bungie didn't whore anything out. They were bought by MS, lock stock and barrel. I could be mistaken, but that's what I read years back (source eludes me). Direct your flame mail to Mr. Gates please.

Although the mouse is better for playing the games, the speed it allows your guy to be capable of is terrifyingly unrealistic. I've seen people snap around and aim so quick that if they did it in real life, it would probably crush their internal organs against their ribcage, or something equally bad.

Seggybop wrote:Although the mouse is better for playing the games, the speed it allows your guy to be capable of is terrifyingly unrealistic. I've seen people snap around and aim so quick that if they did it in real life, it would probably crush their internal organs against their ribcage, or something equally bad.

Hate to break it to you, but in a computer game where one soldier can carry 10 different weapons with full ammo for all of them and can withstand numerous hits from shrapnel and bullets before going down or even suffering a drop in combat effectiveness, physiological realism is not exactly an issue.

Darth Wong wrote: Hate to break it to you, but in a computer game where one soldier can carry 10 different weapons with full ammo for all of them and can withstand numerous hits from shrapnel and bullets before going down or even suffering a drop in combat effectiveness, physiological realism is not exactly an issue.

Then play Ghost Recon

From what I've read, Bungie didn't whore anything out. They were bought by MS, lock stock and barrel. I could be mistaken, but that's what I read years back (source eludes me). Direct your flame mail to Mr. Gates please.

They were bought out because Bungie let themselves be bought out. They whored it to the max.

Hamel wrote: They were bought out because Bungie let themselves be bought out. They whored it to the max.

I have to agree. They saw M$'s huge paycheck and cashed it (and their
integrity down the toilet)

Darth Wong wrote:They were having some kind of regional gameplayers' championships at Playdium in Mississauga today, and I happened to pass through. When you watch FPS games on XBox compared to FPS games on PC, it's just pitiful. The shitty control scheme slows down the game pace like you wouldn't believe, and when you see it side by side, it's just sad.

Watching a bunch of guys with lightning-quick moves on UT2003 with keyboard+mouse on PC and a bunch of guys (top gamers, no less) putzing around with gamepads on Halo is just fucking embarrassing for the console people.

I agree with you about the control issues, but have you seen the high-res WM9 video of Halo 2? This game looks amazing; almost as good as Doom III with MUCH larger environments. I played Halo to death on the Xbox and I can say that it did a fairly good job of translating the controls. The gamepad provided a few advantages as far as the grenade control over the usual PC FPS (gun with one trigger, grenade with the other--no need to cycle inventory) and on the vehicle control it is arguably superior.

Sure, mouse/keyboard is always going to be the way to go with FPS, but that doesn't mean that Halo on the Xbox isn't an amazing experience. PC gaming is slowly becoming a niche market which is unfortunate but understandable given the costs and complexities issues. I grew up on PC games, but console gaming tends to have a lot more quality in the titles these days aside from a handful of AAA PC titles from hardcore developers.

The kicker here is the higher resolution of the PC games. This was an unfortunate side effect of both the slow adoption of HDTV and the lack of speedy memory chips during the Xbox's launch (for those who don't know, faster memory is key to running at higher resolutions). The next-gen consoles will probably be pushing around 100 GB/s of memory bandwidth so making all games 1080i native won't be a problem. Five years may seem like a long time for a single hardware platform but I am constantly amazed by the amount of power developers have pushed from the Xbox given the relatively antiquated architechture. Have you seen Sudeki yet? Best damn graphics I've ever seen.

Anyways, as time rolls on I think that the PC will become more and more of a niche market. It won't die anytime soon and AAA titles will always sell well enough to keep the key developers making games, but the PC is going to lose a lot of its strengths versus consoles. I only wonder if console control systems will continue to evolve as well.

Oh, and have you seen Steel Batallion in action yet? Not exactly a mass market product but certainly a great innovation in game control that hasn't been duplicated on the PC. A wave of the future? Time will tell.

MKSheppard wrote:

Hamel wrote: They were bought out because Bungie let themselves be bought out. They whored it to the max.

I have to agree. They saw M$'s huge paycheck and cashed it (and their
integrity down the toilet)

Come on Shep, buying Bungie may have been the best decision ever for both Microsoft and Bungie. Microsoft gets a console flagship title that will continue to sell the Xbox in the war against the PS2. Bungie gets a blank check for future products. And the fans get kick ass games from one of the best studios in the console business.

I think that it is fair to say that Halo 2 will be everything that the original wasn't. This will be the first Bungie game made specifically for Xbox and this time they get the time they need to finish it and do it right. Early indications all point to Halo 2 being THE title of 2004. Man, I can't wait.

Keevan_Colton wrote:Its almost like watching Quake 2 beside Wolfenstein 3D.

It's sad indeed, though you are right, the controls are the big kicker.... PC's tend to have more omph, though consoles have the advantage in optimization (lazy ass programmers not withstanding).

Actually, you require less optimization on a console, well, kindda, you see, you need less frames per second to look smooth when you move around slowly, and at low resolutions with low quality textures, it's just easier than trying to pull 60+ FPS at high res, you HAVE to do it, or else the game would be unplayable when the fast aiming comes around.

The Kernel wrote: Early indications all point to Halo 2 being THE title of 2004. Man, I can't wait.

No, that's Doom 3

The next-gen consoles will probably be pushing around 100 GB/s of memory bandwidth

I want links.

The Kernel wrote:Oh, and have you seen Steel Batallion in action yet? Not exactly a mass market product but certainly a great innovation in game control that hasn't been duplicated on the PC. A wave of the future? Time will tell.

Never played a flight sim with a HOTAS, Pedals, and the rest, have you?

Sorry, the hideously complex game controller which can only really be used by one game has been done before, better, by the PC. PC also has virtual reality glasses that can register how you turn your head and alter your view accordingly.

As for PCs becoming a niche market, I doubt it. Right now there is ONE dominant computer gaming platform: Windows. Compare that to the current three-way war between Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft.

Also, consider this: I have, for my computer, joysticks, mouse + keyboard, PS2 style controllers, a DDR pad, a nameless speciality controller and yes, a HOTAS setup. I can run ANY game a console can run, and I can probably run it better. I can also do all the other things I can normally do on a computer, plus any of the extras a console can do.

Okay, so I miss out on a lot of the good console games, but hey, I have all my PC games, and ports of all the really good console games anyway, which I can play exactly as the console developers intended, if I so chose.

Meanwhile, in Console land, you're stuck with whatever console you bought (and let's do be honest, if you bought all of the 3-5 consoles on the market as they came out, you're out at least the price of a decent gaming computer), with some more money for games, of course. But then you miss out on the internet, emails, word processing, and of course, free porn. Neither option is going to get you laid, but hey, don't worry, at least you've got Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball. Well, at least if you got an XBox. Otherwise, you've got Final Fantasy X2 for Playstation, and...uh....

Well, if you got a GBA/Gamecube, there's always the chance of seeing Samus in a bikini if you beat the game really fast.

Oh, wait, I forgot to factor in the cost of a HDTV into all of this. Well, that alone will probably cost you as much as a decent gaming rig, not to mention the cost of all the consoles and their extras.

The Kernel wrote:I agree with you about the control issues, but have you seen the high-res WM9 video of Halo 2? This game looks amazing; almost as good as Doom III with MUCH larger environments.

I suggest a visit to an optometrist. Halo2 looks fuzzy; the edges of objects are blurry and indistinct. Object detail is weak. Comparing it to Doom3 is like comparing VHS to DVD.

I played Halo to death on the Xbox and I can say that it did a fairly good job of translating the controls. The gamepad provided a few advantages as far as the grenade control over the usual PC FPS (gun with one trigger, grenade with the other--no need to cycle inventory) and on the vehicle control it is arguably superior.

You must be joking. PC players can set up hotkeys up the wazoo. And as for vehicle control, Halo's scheme sucks; it does not separate turret aiming from navigation.

Sure, mouse/keyboard is always going to be the way to go with FPS, but that doesn't mean that Halo on the Xbox isn't an amazing experience.

I've played Halo on the XBox, and it's not an amazing experience. The combat elements are mundane; it's the story that makes it worthwhile, not the gameplay. Some of the level designs are insanely repetitive, by the way.

PC gaming is slowly becoming a niche market which is unfortunate but understandable given the costs and complexities issues. I grew up on PC games, but console gaming tends to have a lot more quality in the titles these days aside from a handful of AAA PC titles from hardcore developers.

Actually, I've found that console game designers play it safe and there's no innovation to be found in that market. Just bigger and flashier iterations upon a few "tried and true" themes.

The kicker here is the higher resolution of the PC games. This was an unfortunate side effect of both the slow adoption of HDTV and the lack of speedy memory chips during the Xbox's launch (for those who don't know, faster memory is key to running at higher resolutions). The next-gen consoles will probably be pushing around 100 GB/s of memory bandwidth so making all games 1080i native won't be a problem. Five years may seem like a long time for a single hardware platform but I am constantly amazed by the amount of power developers have pushed from the Xbox given the relatively antiquated architechture. Have you seen Sudeki yet? Best damn graphics I've ever seen.

Seriously, I think you need to get your eyes checked out.

Anyways, as time rolls on I think that the PC will become more and more of a niche market. It won't die anytime soon and AAA titles will always sell well enough to keep the key developers making games, but the PC is going to lose a lot of its strengths versus consoles. I only wonder if console control systems will continue to evolve as well.

If consoles are to evolve, they will have to become more PC-like. They're alrady at the limits of what can be done with the current paradigm, and simply amping up the graphic resolution and CPU power won't change anything.

Oh, and have you seen Steel Batallion in action yet? Not exactly a mass market product but certainly a great innovation in game control that hasn't been duplicated on the PC. A wave of the future? Time will tell.

A fucking $200 game which comes with its own dedicated controller in order to address the X-Box's shitty control scheme? If that's the wave of the future, you're fucked. The last thing you need is a shitload of ridiculously expensive games which come with their own dedicated controllers.

Hamel wrote:Goldeneye rocked, though. It wasn't that hard to control.

I'll have to second our Resident Martian's opinion on this.

Goldeneye had such a solid design and really good, straight-foward gameplay, in spite of (or maybe even because of) its simplistic controls. It many not have as big of good features or as many of them compared to recent FPS, but its lack of big/numerous misses make of for it. There aren't many multi-player games that compare to its overall strengths and enjoyment factor.

The Kernel wrote:Anyways, as time rolls on I think that the PC will become more and more of a niche market. It won't die anytime soon and AAA titles will always sell well enough to keep the key developers making games, but the PC is going to lose a lot of its strengths versus consoles. I only wonder if console control systems will continue to evolve as well.

I don't think the PC game market will ever die, a PC will likely always be in every house, i do think, however, that the console market will, if it's tendency to become more PC like every generation continues. The more it becomes like a PC, the more it will need to become like a PC, navigating the Internet will be unpractical if you can't use some kind of word processor to store selected text, text would be of little use if you can't use it anywhere else, so now you need to make it PC compatible, or maybe come out with something like office, all of this is useless if you can't take it to work or other such uses, so you need some kind of server, to follow the Internet tendencies, and maybe a web cam would be nice.

In the end, it turns out they are not consoles anymore, they are PC's, with some kind of operating system, and they become direct competitors with PC's, where i doubt sony or nintendo or microsoft can come up with an architecture and triumph where Apple can't, changing the whole set of standards would be too hard.

I believe the best bet for the consoles is to stay dedicated to be cheap devices to play video games, and even then, as PC's become smaller, cheaper and easier to use and more compatible with appliances such as tv's, while maintaining their power and general purpose, will become a treat to consoles as a gaming alternative, because, after all, almost every home needs a PC, and why buy 2 devices, when one can do all the other one does, and everything else too.

In the long run, i think it's more plausible that the console makers become software developers for one general purpose device, such as the future PC standard, leaving consoles as, maybe, portable or really cheap devices.

The Kernel wrote: Oh, and have you seen Steel Batallion in action yet? Not exactly a mass market product but certainly a great innovation in game control that hasn't been duplicated on the PC. A wave of the future? Time will tell.

What exactly is the innovation? A button for every function? Ever seen a somewhat realistic flight simulator? Hard core flight sim fans would tell you the SB control does not have enough buttons and the functions are not specific enough. How about a keyboard combined with this
linkage.

The PC has had pretty much every kind of controller you can think of, and if it does not, you can always take any combination of controllers and use them as one, even if it sometimes takes a little effort.

The Kernel wrote:
Early indications all point to Halo 2 being THE title of 2004. Man, I can't wait.

Maybe THE console title of 2004. The fact that it's a console FPS already makes it average by PC standars, it won't look as good, and wont play as well as pretty much any pc FPS released in 2004.

The Kernel wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They were having some kind of regional gameplayers' championships at Playdium in Mississauga today, and I happened to pass through. When you watch FPS games on XBox compared to FPS games on PC, it's just pitiful. The shitty control scheme slows down the game pace like you wouldn't believe, and when you see it side by side, it's just sad.

Watching a bunch of guys with lightning-quick moves on UT2003 with keyboard+mouse on PC and a bunch of guys (top gamers, no less) putzing around with gamepads on Halo is just fucking embarrassing for the console people.

I agree with you about the control issues, but have you seen the high-res WM9 video of Halo 2? This game looks amazing; almost as good as Doom III with MUCH larger environments. I played Halo to death on the Xbox and I can say that it did a fairly good job of translating the controls. The gamepad provided a few advantages as far as the grenade control over the usual PC FPS (gun with one trigger, grenade with the other--no need to cycle inventory) and on the vehicle control it is arguably superior.

Sure, mouse/keyboard is always going to be the way to go with FPS, but that doesn't mean that Halo on the Xbox isn't an amazing experience. PC gaming is slowly becoming a niche market which is unfortunate but understandable given the costs and complexities issues. I grew up on PC games, but console gaming tends to have a lot more quality in the titles these days aside from a handful of AAA PC titles from hardcore developers.

The kicker here is the higher resolution of the PC games. This was an unfortunate side effect of both the slow adoption of HDTV and the lack of speedy memory chips during the Xbox's launch (for those who don't know, faster memory is key to running at higher resolutions). The next-gen consoles will probably be pushing around 100 GB/s of memory bandwidth so making all games 1080i native won't be a problem. Five years may seem like a long time for a single hardware platform but I am constantly amazed by the amount of power developers have pushed from the Xbox given the relatively antiquated architechture. Have you seen Sudeki yet? Best damn graphics I've ever seen.

Anyways, as time rolls on I think that the PC will become more and more of a niche market. It won't die anytime soon and AAA titles will always sell well enough to keep the key developers making games, but the PC is going to lose a lot of its strengths versus consoles. I only wonder if console control systems will continue to evolve as well.

Oh, and have you seen Steel Batallion in action yet? Not exactly a mass market product but certainly a great innovation in game control that hasn't been duplicated on the PC. A wave of the future? Time will tell.

Can we not use Halo 2 to defend Halo 1 or console FPS's in general? First of all the game is months from release and Bungie has released precious little on that they plan to do to improve on what has come before. I hope it turns out well but I'm not going to hold my breath until I see some finished levels. The game looks promising but only as a console FPS. The two types are in completely different leagues. I liked Halo a lot but it just doesn't compare to a well designed PC shooter. The mouse/keyboard is just too versatile and precise.