ADSL Broadband (ATM "protocol"?)

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Slartibartfast
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ADSL Broadband (ATM "protocol"?)

Post by Slartibartfast »

I just obtained an internet broadband service from a certain monolithic communications company. The service is a 128/64 kbit/ ADSL (download/upload respectively) and I must say it's crap.

I don't know if anyone here knows about ATM specifications, but there's a certain thing called PCR (Peak Cell Rate) that means the absolute top minimum of a transmission burst. There's another thing called SCR (Sustainable Cell Rate) which is the minimum guaranteed burst or something. Apparently, the amount recommended by the ITU is that the Peak be about the same as the advertised rate (128) while the Sustainable be about 10% of that (12.8 kbits/s)

Now, I've done some research, and this basically means that at more than the SCR, cells may be lost and I don't know what crap, while the PCR is the amount that's been calculated will arrive at its destination 100% of the time. The stupid thing is, the company interprets this SCR (10%) as the least amount they're forced to give you!

This means they think that as long as you receive more than 10% you've got nothing to complain about. If I get at least 1.6 kbyte/sec (pathetic, I know) it means everything's peachy and the system is functioning perfectly, and I'm still bound by their contract. (grr)

Anyone here is knowledgeable enough to give me some advice about that? Or maybe a layman-friendly way to explain to them what SCR is and what it's not? I keep calling customer service and all they give me is this shit that "it's above the minimum" and I tell them stuff like "sure, if you want to be a MEDIOCRE service you'll always give customers the minimum" - that doesn't convince them, but at least after that I get promises that they'll "look into it and see what they can do".

I'm so angry, I could break something.

EDIT: As an added note, this thing will cost me about $45 US dollars each month :x
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Post by phongn »

ISPs are not required to give you full bandwidth. Virtually all "oversubscribe" to one extent to another on the assumption that the vast majority of their users are not online all the time. However, check with your DSL line provider (not your ISP). Sometimes they mess up and plug you into the wrong line - once they accidentially put us on a 64kbps line when doing maintenance. We paid for a 768/128 line.

However, what does ATM have to do with anything? ADSL does not use that protocol, AFAIK.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

phongn wrote:ISPs are not required to give you full bandwidth. Virtually all "oversubscribe" to one extent to another on the assumption that the vast majority of their users are not online all the time.
This one restricts your connection so you have to upgrade to a newer one. Users of 128 kbit get less than half that, while those who pay for 512 kbits get at least 70-80% of the advertised speed.
However, check with your DSL line provider (not your ISP).
The same company owns the phone service, TV cable, cablemodem, ADSL, and all ISPs. There are a few other companies that give service with their own system (like some sort of antenna dish and stuff) but they're shit.
Sometimes they mess up and plug you into the wrong line - once they accidentially put us on a 64kbps line when doing maintenance. We paid for a 768/128 line.
The problem here, is that they take the (out of context) 10% quote, say "hey, you're getting more than 10%, don't bother us" and only when I tell them that other users (with my same service) get more than I do they even consider listening to me.
However, what does ATM have to do with anything? ADSL does not use that protocol, AFAIK.
From http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/glossary/adsl.htm
ATM
Asynchronous Transfer Mode: an ultra high speed cell-based data transmission protocol which may be run over ADSL.
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Post by phongn »

Slartibartfast wrote:This one restricts your connection so you have to upgrade to a newer one. Users of 128 kbit get less than half that, while those who pay for 512 kbits get at least 70-80% of the advertised speed.
Okay, that's stupid. Bait and switch.
The same company owns the phone service, TV cable, cablemodem, ADSL, and all ISPs. There are a few other companies that give service with their own system (like some sort of antenna dish and stuff) but they're shit.
Ah, shit, I forgot you don't live in CONUS. Sorry, I have no idea what to do, then.

As far as the ATM thing, sure, it can be used, but are you absolutely sure that ATM is the protocol being used? I can't see why it's being used for something as basic as home internet service.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

phongn wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:This one restricts your connection so you have to upgrade to a newer one. Users of 128 kbit get less than half that, while those who pay for 512 kbits get at least 70-80% of the advertised speed.
Okay, that's stupid. Bait and switch.
Don't know if it's stupid, but it works and the users are powerless against it. It's not like anyone's going to actually fine them or anything. Once you "sign" the contract, you're bound by it for a year even if they fuck you over. Only after that year you can cancel the deal.
The same company owns the phone service, TV cable, cablemodem, ADSL, and all ISPs. There are a few other companies that give service with their own system (like some sort of antenna dish and stuff) but they're shit.
Ah, shit, I forgot you don't live in CONUS. Sorry, I have no idea what to do, then.

As far as the ATM thing, sure, it can be used, but are you absolutely sure that ATM is the protocol being used? I can't see why it's being used for something as basic as home internet service.
Yes, it uses the TCP/IP protocol over ATM. The law says that they must provide the service according to the following specifications:

Code: Select all

Download                PCR     SCR
128 Kbps / 64 Kbps      128    12.8
256 Kbps / 128 Kbps     256    25.6
512 Kbps / 128 Kbps     512    51.2
2.048 Mbps / 300 Kbps  2016   201.6

Upload                  PCR     SCR
128 Kbps / 64 Kbps       64     6.4
256 Kbps / 128 Kbps     128    12.8
512 Kbps / 128 Kbps     128    12.8
2.048 Mbps / 300 Kbps   320    32

PCR = Peak Cell Rate
SCR = Sustainable Cell Rate
But when you call and complain that you're getting shit speeds (40% or so) they point at the contract and say "see, the contract says the SCR is 10% of the real speed, that means we're only obligued to give you that" but that's a rotten lie. :?

Say you buy a Pentium 4 with 2 Ghz. But for some reason, it only gives you 1 Ghz. You complain with the salesman, and he tells you "well, here it says the bus is 133 Mhz, which means that's the minimum we're supposed to give ya!". Same thing here :evil:

A more correct analogy is this: say you buy a wave pool (that kind of pool that makes waves, like a beach), and it says that the base surface depth is, let's say 5 meters. The pool is supposed to make waves 5 meters tall, that's 10 meters counting from the bottom of the pool. But you only get about 2 (+5 = 7). You complain, and they tell you that unless it's making waves lower than the base (that's would be a completely static pool) you don't have a basis for your complaint :x
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Post by Darth Wong »

Unfortunately, if they put that bullshit in the contract and you signed it, then you're screwed. It's obviously not industry-standard, and it's clearly not ethical, but that's never stopped big businesses before.

I've had several different broadband services here in Toronto starting with 64kbps ISDN and moving up to 1MBps DSL and 3 MBps DSL, and they've always given full advertised download speed. If they didn't, I would have complained. But then again, Canada seems to be well-serviced for broadband (a 1 Mbps connection costs $45 CDN/month, which is equivalent to roughly $34 US/month).
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Actually, the contract just points that they follow the regulation, provides a link to the reg. document, and "interprets" it that they only guarantee 10% like IT SAYS IN THE DOCUMENT. But the document says no such thing. The regulation is that the 128 kbps service should use a 12.8 kbps Sustainable Cell Rate, the 256 kbps should use 25.6 kbps SCR, and so on and so forth.

The nature of ATM is that it is 1) asynchronous 2) it doesn't guarantee that 100% of the packets wil get to the destination (no error checking). This SCR simply means that 10% of the bandwidth SHOULD be synchronous and loss-free, not that it is the minimum they can give you. As I said, it's like a regulation or specification states that all Pentiums 533 should use 133 mhz buses, therefore if your Pentium 533 benchmarks at anything over 133 (even if it's less than 533) then it's working correctly.
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Post by Darth Wong »

In that case, they're probably just assuming that no one is going to sue them. Anyone who could afford to sue them would have gotten the higher-end service, while people who try to go cheap will never sue them and they can afford to be abusive. Smart business, unfortunately.
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Post by Vendetta »

I've not had time to put too much research into this, but the ISP-tech's use of SCR as the minimum QoS you get is setting off all three bells and several lights on the bullshit detector.

(At least part of that is the fact that it's an answer from an ISP, in whom I place incredibly little faith)

More will follow, when I've had a chance to poke this issue.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Thanks, every bit of info helps.

I just spoke with them on the phone. Explained how that thing about the QoS is bullshit, but I need to insist more. They are hard heads but I think I'm managing to slowly get into those thick skulls.
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Post by Xon »

And I thought my adsl connection sucked.

Sure its over priced & low bandwidth(256/64 kbps) but I get exactly whats advertised.
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