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Can you avoid becoming a Jedi or a Sith in this game? Is it possible to play the game through with out ever becoming a force user?

No

Fuck! I don't wan't to be some lame ass Jedi.

Sir Sirius wrote:Fuck! I don't wan't to be some lame ass Jedi.

Well, you have no choice, but you can not use a saber, or force powers

Better yet, I'll not play the game.

Sir Sirius wrote:Better yet, I'll not play the game.

Why the hell would you not want to play a JEDI in a game called KNIGHTS of the Old Republic- better yet, how could you expect the centerpieceof Star Wars lore to be *excluded* completely from it before you'd even consider playing the game? That just's dumb. What'd you think the game was about? A Star Wars RPG without being a Jedi? How incredibly lame. How exactly do you expect that you would fight the big arse Sith villain from 4,000 years ago who happens to be holding a lightsabre (as is their wont) without being a Jedi? Quite frankly, this is easily the most wierd, fickle complaint about a game I have *ever* seen. If you want to miss out on one of the best games of the year out of such a ridiculous expectation, go ahead ...

So Vympel, I take it you like the game?

Actually, I was wondering whether or not to get it, but I'm not sure it can run on my PC. My brother's got an Xbox, and I know KOTOR has an Xbox version.

Is there any significant difference between the PC version and the Xbox version?

Stofsk wrote:So Vympel, I take it you like the game?

It should be out later today, if Electronics Boutique is right- bloody Australia, we always get left behind ... so no, I haven't played it, but it's got universally excellent press and good word of mouth from others (including some here) and it just looks/sounds exactly like Star Wars meets Baldur's Gate. What more could you want in a game?

Actually, I was wondering whether or not to get it, but I'm not sure it can run on my PC. My brother's got an Xbox, and I know KOTOR has an Xbox version.

Is there any significant difference between the PC version and the Xbox version?

The PC version is better in a few ways- superior interface, more items, better graphics (higher resolution) etc.

Vympel wrote:It should be out later today, if Electronics Boutique is right- bloody Australia, we always get left behind ...

Ain't that the truth.

The PC version is better in a few ways- superior interface, more items, better graphics (higher resolution) etc.

Well, I can hire the Xbox version from Gametraders, and y'know the old adage, "try before you buy." The only problem there is a 2-night only rental, which seems a criminal lack for an RPG.

Hmmm, I think I'll buy it. I loved Jedi Knight: Outcast and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (which I am still holding out hope of the second CD being an 'expansio' that requires a code, because goddam, I did't just turn to the Dark Side for shits and giggles, I wanted to become hunted!)

It's similar to those right?

Vympel wrote:Why the hell would you not want to play a JEDI in a game called KNIGHTS of the Old Republic-

I don't like the Jedi and I have little interrest in playing one. Even a computer RPG's requires (or at least benefits from) some amount immersion to the role of the character you are playing, this is something I doubt I will be able to achief with a Jedi character. This isn't an issue with pure shoot'em'ups like Jedi Knight, but is a concern for me in RPGs.

Vympel wrote:better yet, how could you expect the centerpieceof Star Wars lore to be *excluded* completely from it before you'd even consider playing the game? That just's dumb.

Strawman. I do not wish to "exclude" the Jedi from the game, I merely wish to play a character other then a Jedi.

Vympel wrote:What'd you think the game was about? A Star Wars RPG without being a Jedi? How incredibly lame.

Yes, yes, as we all know dramaticaly narrowing character development options in an RPG is "lame" and a very very bad thing.

Vympel wrote:How exactly do you expect that you would fight the big arse Sith villain from 4,000 years ago who happens to be holding a lightsabre (as is their wont) without being a Jedi?

By throwing his magic ring in to the volcano where it was forget, thus undoing all that was done with it. Seriously now, I'd expect the game developers to provide solutions to problems other the CHARGE!!! (Fallout series being the perhaps the best example of computer RPGs that do this well), seeing as how freedom of choice is the very essence of an RPG this is hardly an unreasonable expectation.

Vympel wrote:Quite frankly, this is easily the most wierd, fickle complaint about a game I have *ever* seen.

Seen though your strawman tinted classes I can understand how it would appear to be so.

Vympel wrote:If you want to miss out on one of the best games of the year out of such a ridiculous expectation, go ahead ...

Interresting how you call a game you have not even played yet one of the best games of the year. Ah, the power of Hype...

There's going to be an expansion to Jedi Academy?

No unless you take adavantage of an odd bug of the game.

thus in the end...no, and the problem is the story demands you to become a Jedi...and well no real reason aside from player's feeling not to.

As for best game...certainly better then any RPG this year.

Crown wrote:Hmmm, I think I'll buy it. I loved Jedi Knight: Outcast and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (which I am still holding out hope of the second CD being an 'expansio' that requires a code, because goddam, I did't just turn to the Dark Side for shits and giggles, I wanted to become hunted!)

It's similar to those right?

Not really...it's more akin to Baldur's Gate honestly...just with a combat scheme that LOOKS(not plays) like Jedi academy.

Ghost Rider wrote:As for best game...certainly better then any RPG this year.

In my view KotOR loses to the BG series and NWN because it lacks multiplayer mode, half the fun in those games was playing with some friends.

Ghost Rider wrote:Not really...it's more akin to Baldur's Gate honestly...just with a combat scheme that LOOKS(not plays) like Jedi academy.

I'd say it's more like Neverwinter Nights then Baldur's Gate.

Sir Sirius wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:As for best game...certainly better then any RPG this year.

In my view KotOR loses to the BG series and NWN because it lacks multiplayer mode, half the fun in those games was playing with some friends.

Mostly why I said this year .

And for me difference in taste. I preferred BG's story a little bit more but I like the battle scheme of this game more.

Just never got into NWN so no comment there.

Sir Sirius wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Not really...it's more akin to Baldur's Gate honestly...just with a combat scheme that LOOKS(not plays) like Jedi academy.

I'd say it's more like Neverwinter Nights then Baldur's Gate.

Probably...just using something I thought it would be more familar but you are correct a bit more NWN scheme then BG.

Ghost Rider wrote:And for me difference in taste. I preferred BG's story a little bit more but I like the battle scheme of this game more.

True, though I was a bit dissapointed by how little ranged weapons are used, even before becoming a Jedi swords and vibroswords are superior to blasters which is a bit silly and most opponents charge to melee range right away.

Sir Sirius wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:And for me difference in taste. I preferred BG's story a little bit more but I like the battle scheme of this game more.

True, though I was a bit dissapointed by how little ranged weapons are used, even before becoming a Jedi swords and vibroswords are superior to blasters which is a bit silly and most opponents charge to melee range right away.

No argument here...guns could've been a lot nicer(not for you, but would've liked if they were useful because honestly a pure melee team will wipe the floor with a pure range team, and I mean Player Character teams). And honestly the worst of it is that pistols are better then rifles or heavy guns.

Plus range is meaningless(25~28 meters?!....I've never seen the game engae at that level...literally 10 m...maybe)

The game like melee much, MUCH more.

Hmm, no wonder those vibroswords seemed to be a lot more effective than my heavy blaster.

I usually equip two people with melee weapons and keep one person in the back throwing grenades and firing with dual blasters to weaken enemies. Works well.

Sir Sirius wrote: Strawman. I do not wish to "exclude" the Jedi from the game, I merely wish to play a character other then a Jedi.

And defeat the villain how?

Vympel wrote:Yes, yes, as we all know dramaticaly narrowing character development options in an RPG is "lame" and a very very bad thing.

No, excluding the central element of the entire Star Wars lore *is* incredibly lame. And, you allegations of strawman aside, you cannot defeat a Sith without having a Jedi at your disposal- so you either exclude the villain, or exclude the Jedi entirely- which one?

By throwing his magic ring in to the volcano where it was forget, thus undoing all that was done with it. Seriously now, I'd expect the game developers to provide solutions to problems other the CHARGE!!! (Fallout series being the perhaps the best example of computer RPGs that do this well), seeing as how freedom of choice is the very essence of an RPG this is hardly an unreasonable expectation.

Uh huh. So you expect to talk Darth Malak into killing himself perhaps? Or are you just going to set off the huge nuke in his secret base to blow himself up, without fighting him? And also, when your Jedi powers are 'activated', you have three choices as to what kind of Jedi you want to be, it's hardly just *charge* with a lightsabre. Every review of KOTOR shows that you are presented with choices in nearly every encounter, and these have a direct effect on the outcome of the game- by virtue of the focus on Dark Side vs Light Side which is the very focus of Star Wars. This is a good thing. Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 didn't afford you many options when fighting Sarevok and Jon Irenicus, that didn't make them bad games.

Seen though your strawman tinted classes I can understand how it would appear to be so.

Hardly- as I said, to pretend that a Star Wars RPG should allow you the option of not being a Jedi and attempting to somehow deal with an enemy Sith Lord by being some schmuck with a gun or a really good talker is just idiotic. This is *Star Wars*, not some miscellaneous RPG universe, and as such it must follow Star Wars convention for it to be worthy of the name. Jedi fight Sith. Anyone else is fodder.

Vympel wrote:Interresting how you call a game you have not even played yet one of the best games of the year. Ah, the power of Hype...

It's a safe expectation considering its success on X-Box and the acclaim the PC version has recieved. The same acclaim that Fallout, Baldur's Gate etc recieved. I see no reason to apply a double standard in this case.

Vympel wrote:And defeat the villain how?

Asked and answered.

Vympel wrote:No, excluding the central element of the entire Star Wars lore *is* incredibly lame.

How many times are you going to repeat this strawman?

Vympel wrote:And, you allegations of strawman aside, you cannot defeat a Sith without having a Jedi at your disposal- so you either exclude the villain, or exclude the Jedi entirely- which one?

Yeap, as we all know no Force user can be killed by a non-Force user, this is why the Jedi suffered no casualties on Geonosis. Also as we all know there are no instances in the history of fiction where a superior foe has been vanquished by means other then strength of arms. Oh, and it would be nice for an role-playing game to have problem solving solutions other then CHARGE!!!

Vympel wrote:Uh huh. So you expect to talk Darth Malak into killing himself perhaps? Or are you just going to set off the huge nuke in his secret base to blow himself up, without fighting him?

In a tabletop RPG this kind of choices are up to the GM, in a computer RPG they are up to the game developers, but in the end having more choices then CHARGE!!! would be nice.

Vympel wrote:And also, when your Jedi powers are 'activated', you have three choices as to what kind of Jedi you want to be, it's hardly just *charge* with a lightsabre.

As someone who has actualy played this game, LOL!

Vympel wrote:Every review of KOTOR shows that you are presented with choices in nearly every encounter, and these have a direct effect on the outcome of the game- by virtue of the focus on Dark Side vs Light Side which is the very focus of Star Wars. This is a good thing.

And the downside of adding even more character development options and choices would be?

Vympel wrote:Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 didn't afford you many options when fighting Sarevok and Jon Irenicus, that didn't make them bad games.

And they would have been far better had they provided more options in those situations. Besides the primary attraction in BG (for me at least) was multiplayer, something that KotOR lacks.

Vympel wrote:Hardly- as I said, to pretend that a Star Wars RPG should allow you the option of not being a Jedi and attempting to somehow deal with an enemy Sith Lord by being some schmuck with a gun or a really good talker is just idiotic. This is *Star Wars*, not some miscellaneous RPG universe, and as such it must follow Star Wars convention for it to be worthy of the name. Jedi fight Sith. Anyone else is fodder.

Yeap, as we all know repeating the same cliche over and over again, instead of trying to come up with something new, is a good thing. However, unfortunately masturbating to Jedi is all too common in Star Wars EU. With fleets of thousands of ships with multi-gigaton range weaponry and armies numbering in the millions being common in SW it is rather silly that every conflict is solved by a couple of guys with lightsabers (this complaint is not restricted to the game).

Vympel wrote:It's a safe expectation considering its success on X-Box and the acclaim the PC version has recieved. The same acclaim that Fallout, Baldur's Gate etc recieved. I see no reason to apply a double standard in this case.

KotOR is a pretty good computer RPG, but it loses to BG since it has no multiplayer and in terms of role-playing elements Fallout pisses on KotOR from a great height.

Sir Sirius wrote:[
Yeap, as we all know no Force user can be killed by a non-Force user, this is why the Jedi suffered no casualties on Geonosis.

I'm sure role-playing one of several hundred battledroids who have conveniently surrounded a bunch of Jedi far inferior in number and positioned like idiots will be really interesting.

Also as we all know there are no instances in the history of fiction where a superior foe has been vanquished by means other then strength of arms. Oh, and it would be nice for an role-playing game to have problem solving solutions other then CHARGE!!!

And that solution in the case of a Star Wars RPG is what?

In a tabletop RPG this kind of choices are up to the GM, in a computer RPG they are up to the game developers, but in the end having more choices then CHARGE!!! would be nice.

Like what?

As someone who has actualy played this game, LOL!

There are three Jedi classes. What's so hard to understand about this?

And the downside of adding even more character development options and choices would be?

It fucks up the plot. Let's say you take a non-Sith villain. Which player in their right mind would not want to be a Jedi if the option was afforded to them? You have to account for that. So you either piss all over Star Wars convention by nerfing Jedi (to account for game balance issues), earning complaints that the game is not faithful to the universe its supposed to represent, or leave them out completely and just turn it into a dull "defeat the miscellaneous villain and/or evil force" RPG crawl with no distinguishing Star Wars features besides perhaps the sound effects, aliens and locations.

And they would have been far better had they provided more options in those situations. Besides the primary attraction in BG (for me at least) was multiplayer, something that KotOR lacks.

Well shit, I thought I knew how odd your tastes were. Baldur's Gate was an awesome single player game more than anything it was on the multiplayer scene.

Yeap, as we all know repeating the same cliche over and over again, instead of trying to come up with something new, is a good thing. However, unfortunately masturbating to Jedi is all too common in Star Wars EU. With fleets of thousands of ships with multi-gigaton range weaponry and armies numbering in the millions being common in SW it is rather silly that every conflict is solved by a couple of guys with lightsabers (this complaint is not restricted to the game).

It's the entire theme of the films. How can you expect any good Star Wars game of this type to go to the trouble of crafting some obscure non-Jedi path? The Jedi, and the fight between the Dark and 'light' are a central theme of Star Wars. Would you rather role-play a namless face in aforementioned army of millions or some nameless officer on some capital ship?

KotOR is a pretty good computer RPG, but it loses to BG since it has no multiplayer and in terms of role-playing elements Fallout pisses on KotOR from a great height.

Fallout doesn't carry the restrictions of the Star Wars license. Multiplayer in RPGs, as far as I'm concerned, is a distraction that draws development energy away from making a rewarding single player experience.

Vympel wrote:I'm sure role-playing one of several hundred battledroids who have conveniently surrounded a bunch of Jedi far inferior in number and positioned like idiots will be really interesting.

The point was that Jedi can and have been killed by non-force users. Besides the end of game boss fight is hardly all there is to KotOR. I don't even like boss fights.

Vympel wrote:And that solution in the case of a Star Wars RPG is what?
...
Like what?

As you said nuke him, hit him with a turbolaser or destroy the ship he is (if he is on a ship) on (or you could even hack a computer controlling a droid army and use it to kill him), there are basically a limitless number options other then simple personal combat.

Vympel wrote:There are three Jedi classes. What's so hard to understand about this?

Vympel wrote:It fucks up the plot. Let's say you take a non-Sith villain. Which player in their right mind would not want to be a Jedi if the option was afforded to them? You have to account for that. So you either piss all over Star Wars convention by nerfing Jedi (to account for game balance issues), earning complaints that the game is not faithful to the universe its supposed to represent...

Eh, the game already does that. Every single bladed weapon in the game has a Cortosis edge so that they can parry lightsabers, a shortsword wielded by a brawny guy does more damage then a blaster, the maximum range of a blaster rifle is less then 30 meters Etc.

Vympel wrote:...or leave them out completely and just turn it into a dull "defeat the miscellaneous villain and/or evil force" RPG crawl with no distinguishing Star Wars features besides perhaps the sound effects, aliens and locations.

Yeap, because there is nothing more to the Star Wars universe then the Jedi.

Vympel wrote:Well shit, I thought I knew how odd your tastes were. Baldur's Gate was an awesome single player game more than anything it was on the multiplayer scene.

BG was good as a single player game, but far better as a multiplayer game.

Vympel wrote:[1] It's the entire theme of the films. [2] How can you expect any good Star Wars game of this type to go to the trouble of crafting some obscure non-Jedi path? [3] The Jedi, and the fight between the Dark and 'light' are a central theme of Star Wars. [4] Would you rather role-play a namless face in aforementioned army of millions or some nameless officer on some capital ship?

1. Yeap, it is a Star Wars cliche.
2. A far more diverse character development (something that being able to choose a character other then a Jedi would accomplish) would improve the game dramatically.
3. Would deviating from that theme really be such a bad thing?
4. Did you miss the part about that complaint being about EU at large, rather then just about this game. Also do you belief that playing the role of say Han Solo in the OT wouldn't be interresting? Or how about Amidala in the prequels?

Vympel wrote:Fallout doesn't carry the restrictions of the Star Wars license.

Having a license that allows the game devolpers to situate their game in one of the most interresting setting in fiction is a restriction and a burden?

Vympel wrote:Multiplayer in RPGs, as far as I'm concerned, is a distraction that draws development energy away from making a rewarding single player experience.

KotOR single player mode isn't anything special compared to that in Baldur's Gate and BG has multiplayer as well.

BTW have you played BG in multiplayer mode with some friends?

Sirius, stop being an ass. Even though Vympel hasn't played the game, he's made very good points.

As someone who has been playing the game since before its release, Sirius, the game is supposed to follow a story. It's not a massive and completely open-ended RPG, in-fact there are twelve slightly flexible storylines in the game based on which class and gender you choose to play, and wether you play dark-side or light-side, but they all go through the same story. It's how the designers wanted it.

The point of the game is to be an interactive cinematic experience, not a free-style RPG.

Knowing how the game ends, I can tell you that you have to become a Jedi (dark or light) to defeat this game. There is a huge twist in the storyline directly involving this.

As for multiplayer, I can't remember the exact reason, but they left it out because it couldn't be done properly.

As for you laughing at Vympel saying there are three classes of Jedi, what is your problem, ass? There are three classes! Guardian, Sentinel, and Consulate. Each with different bonuses and penalties. You even have to pick the colour of your lightsabre accordingly but can customise it later.

SirSirius wrote:1. Yeap, it is a Star Wars cliche.
2. A far more diverse character development (something that being able to choose a character other then a Jedi would accomplish) would improve the game dramatically.
3. Would deviating from that theme really be such a bad thing?
4. Did you miss the part about that complaint being about EU at large, rather then just about this game. Also do you belief that playing the role of say Han Solo in the OT wouldn't be interresting? Or how about Amidala in the prequels?

What the hell is all this crap? What don't you understand about how there is a pretty set storyline and you have a pretty set character which must complete the same bunch of goals no matter what class, gender, or alignment you play.

I've tried deviating from the storyline, you know what happens? Nothing. You end up doing something like running around tattooine with nobody saying much at all, bored out of your skull. Sure, you can play the odd swoop-race, but that gets old very fast.

You seem to have a problem with pretty much the entire point of the game. Obviously the game is not for you, play something else.