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I was playing Quake (the original) at school. Episode 1, level 4, on hard. I was fighting a shambler, when I accidentally moved the mouse too low. The dock menu pops up. Since I was firing when it did, it opened Idiot Exploiter and Word. I lose control of Quake. Frantically, I switch back, and every time I do, an error message or something pops up, bringing me back to those programs. Then super lag kicks in, as so many things are running at once. I watch helplessly as the shambler... shambles towards me. Whack. Health down to 5%. I re-gain control, and run away before the fucker crushes me. Then, more error messages, and more lag, and I watch, helplessly again, as the shambler charges up some lightning, and frys my ass.

rant mode off

Saying "anothing reason why mac's suck for gaming" is like saying "another reason why slugs dont' last long it a salt mine", it's pointless.

... Quake should have the ability to be maximized in front so you don't worry about the Dock.

But yes, Macs aren't very good for gaming.

YT300000 wrote:I was playing Quake (the original) at school. Episode 1, level 4, on hard. I was fighting a shambler, when I accidentally moved the mouse too low. The dock menu pops up.

Do you honestly think it's impossible for a programmer to make the same mistake on Windows?

Since I was firing when it did, it opened Idiot Exploiter and Word. I lose control of Quake. Frantically, I switch back, and every time I do, an error message or something pops up, bringing me back to those programs. Then super lag kicks in, as so many things are running at once. I watch helplessly as the shambler... shambles towards me. Whack. Health down to 5%. I re-gain control, and run away before the fucker crushes me. Then, more error messages, and more lag, and I watch, helplessly again, as the shambler charges up some lightning, and frys my ass.

You fell victim to poor programming. AOL Instant Messenger has a tendency to bring itself to the front on Windows whenever a message is received, even if you're in a full-screen game.

Honestly, there are plenty of reasons Macs aren't good for gaming. Though, many of those reasons are going away -- Mac hardware is easily on par with x86 PC's, both major graphics card makers support the platform and OS X's OpenGL implementation is arguably one of the best in the industry.

There are two things detracting from the Mac's viability as a gaming platform. The first is the lack of DirectX support (which is hardly Apple's fault). The second is the lack of ports, which is tied to the first. If DirectX didn't exist, you could bet that there would be a Hell of a lot more Mac ports. Even so, it never hurts to have a heavy-weight like id Software backing a platform up. Unlike the rest of the developers, Carmack realizes that OpenGL can do just as much as DirectX can while being infinitely more portable.

Durandal wrote: Honestly, there are plenty of reasons Macs aren't good for gaming. Though, many of those reasons are going away -- Mac hardware is easily on par with x86 PC's, both major graphics card makers support the platform and OS X's OpenGL implementation is arguably one of the best in the industry.

Yet much of the hardware that is sold with Mac's is of the midgrade to lower end variety. Even on the G5 tower, the craptastic 5200 Ultra is standard equipment with the midrange 9600 going into the $3000 dual-2GHz model. The 9800 is an option yes, but making it a $300 option on a $3000 computer is just classic fucking of would be Mac gamers in the ass.

There are two things detracting from the Mac's viability as a gaming platform. The first is the lack of DirectX support (which is hardly Apple's fault). The second is the lack of ports, which is tied to the first. If DirectX didn't exist, you could bet that there would be a Hell of a lot more Mac ports. Even so, it never hurts to have a heavy-weight like id Software backing a platform up. Unlike the rest of the developers, Carmack realizes that OpenGL can do just as much as DirectX can while being infinitely more portable.

Unfortunately, it is even worse today then it once was. The PC gaming market is in decline and one of the things that helps game companies justify development on the PC is the fact that it is easily portable to/from the Xbox (because they both use the DirectX API).

Further, OpenGL has its strengths but it isn't as well standardized as DirectX and requires a ridiculous amount of custom extentions in order to access the latest features on programmable shader cards, whereas DirectX always supports these features from the get go. If OpenGL really wants to become a true competitor to DirectX again, then they need to stop wasting so much time bickering about the standards (how long has OpenGL 2.0 been under deliberation?) and actually come up with a workable schedule for future iterations of the API.

I don't like this situation any more then you do. I would really love to be running a Mac as my primary system, but since I still play a lot of PC games, I just can't justify it with the meager assortment of titles that get ported.

DirectX is better than OpenGL beacause -

1. Only the graphics component, the OpenGL is well known among the developer community. Few people ever use the OpenAL or OpenIL libraries because they are terrible. In comparision DirectInput and DirectXAudio is universaly used.

2. OpenGL lags behind DirectDraw in 2D acceleration since it was intended for 3D graphics.

3. OpenIL supports accelerated hardware but not many hardware vendors have written drivers for it. On the other hand all hardware vendors support DirectInput

4. DirectXAudio is very advanced and is compatible with all hardware. OpenAL is only supported in select platforms.

5. DirectPlay supports networking and multiplayer gaming. There no OpenXX equivalent meaning that if you need to write your own.

6. DirectX is better documented than OpenGL and is easier to learn.

7. Some hardware manufactures are ignoring OpenGL whereas almost all hardware manufacturers support DirectX.

EDIT : Fixed typos.

That's the only reason for DirectX's existence - MicroShit doesn't like to share.

Allegro (and some other game library that I don't remember) are better than DirectX because

1) They use OpenGL for 3D
2) Can do everything DirectX does, but nicer
3) They're open-source, and cross-platform.

Slartibartfast wrote:Allegro (and some other game library that I don't remember) are better than DirectX because

1) They use OpenGL for 3D
2) Can do everything DirectX does, but nicer
3) They're open-source, and cross-platform.

SDL.



BTW I believe there is an OSS DirectX wrapper for OpenGL.

Slartibartfast wrote:That's the only reason for DirectX's existence - MicroShit doesn't like to share.

The real reason DirectX is better is because of the Microsoft monopoly. Since Microsoft dominates the OS industry all graphics hardware manufacturers have to optimize their products for DirectX. This lets Microsoft make more money but users suffer since many of the graphics features found in todays cards can only be used with DirectX.

Durandal wrote:

YT300000 wrote:I was playing Quake (the original) at school. Episode 1, level 4, on hard. I was fighting a shambler, when I accidentally moved the mouse too low. The dock menu pops up.

Do you honestly think it's impossible for a programmer to make the same mistake on Windows?

No, I don't. But there's no dock in Windows. And other stuff that pops up can be turned off.

Since I was firing when it did, it opened Idiot Exploiter and Word. I lose control of Quake. Frantically, I switch back, and every time I do, an error message or something pops up, bringing me back to those programs. Then super lag kicks in, as so many things are running at once. I watch helplessly as the shambler... shambles towards me. Whack. Health down to 5%. I re-gain control, and run away before the fucker crushes me. Then, more error messages, and more lag, and I watch, helplessly again, as the shambler charges up some lightning, and frys my ass.

You fell victim to poor programming. AOL Instant Messenger has a tendency to bring itself to the front on Windows whenever a message is received, even if you're in a full-screen game.

But you can turn it off (I always turn MSNIM off for games).

YT300000 wrote:

Durandal wrote:

YT300000 wrote:I was playing Quake (the original) at school. Episode 1, level 4, on hard. I was fighting a shambler, when I accidentally moved the mouse too low. The dock menu pops up.

Do you honestly think it's impossible for a programmer to make the same mistake on Windows?

No, I don't. But there's no dock in Windows. And other stuff that pops up can be turned off.

And if Quake's MacOS X port had been properly implemented than you'd never have to deal with the Dock, either, and if you hate it so much you can force-kill the Finder then! No more dock!

YT300000 wrote:No, I don't. But there's no dock in Windows. And other stuff that pops up can be turned off.

It's called the Taskbar. It can be auto-hidden, and in the case of poor programming, it will pop up while you're playing a full-screen game.

By the way, to turn off the Dock's auto-hide, contorl-click on the divider line and select "Turn Hiding Off." I know that all you Windows people are used to every god damn thing popping up in a help bubble to tell you how to do it, but at least try digging around the OS before pissing and moaning about easily changeable things.

The Kernel wrote:Yet much of the hardware that is sold with Mac's is of the midgrade to lower end variety. Even on the G5 tower, the craptastic 5200 Ultra is standard equipment with the midrange 9600 going into the $3000 dual-2GHz model. The 9800 is an option yes, but making it a $300 option on a $3000 computer is just classic fucking of would be Mac gamers in the ass.

I didn't say it was perfect. I said it was changing. Only a fool would say that the state of Mac gaming hasn't improved markedly in the past 5 years. High-end Macs can now run side-by-side with high-end PC's in terms of framerate (for those people the really get off on those kinds of things), and many of the popular titles are ported to the platform within a couple of months of the Windows release.

evilcat4000 wrote:DirectX is better than OpenGL beacause -

*snip*

3. OpenIL supports accelerated hardware but not many hardware vendors have written drivers for it. On the other hand all hardware vendors support DirectInput

Funny, ATI and nVidia have supported OpenGL for years now, and have shown no signs of stopping. I'm curious where you came up with that.

5. DirectPlay supports networking and multiplayer gaming. There no OpenXX equivalent meaning that if you need to write your own.

I'm curious why this matters. Most people either use the gaming service started by a given company, use kali, or some other multiplayer gaming service. Where the hell does DirectPlay come into the picture here?

7. Some hardware manufactures are ignoring OpenGL whereas almost all hardware manufacturers support DirectX.

nVidia, ATI, and the late 3DFX supported OpenGL and showed no signs of stopping.....hell, even the POS onboard intel chipsets supported OpenGL.

Furthermore, what major game makes extensive use of OpenGL? Here's a hint....its something that our resident queer quaker is into very heavily. OpenGL is far from dying dude.

evilcat4000 wrote:DirectX is better than OpenGL beacause -

1. Only the graphics component, the OpenGL is well known among the developer community. Few people ever use the OpenAL or OpenIL libraries because they are terrible. In comparision DirectInput and DirectXAudio is universaly used.

That probably has something to do with the fact that those other components have no official relation with OpenGL. OpenGL is graphics, and graphics only.

2. OpenGL lags behind DirectDraw in 2D acceleration since it was intended for 3D graphics.

Der. Like it matters anymore.

3. OpenIL supports accelerated hardware but not many hardware vendors have written drivers for it. On the other hand all hardware vendors support DirectInput

What the hell are you talking about? There's no such thing as OpenIL.

4. DirectXAudio is very advanced and is compatible with all hardware. OpenAL is only supported in select platforms.

Err. There's nothing stopping you from using DirectSound or DirectMusic with OpenGL. There's no such thing as DirectAudio either. Maybe the old SDK, pre 8, but who uses that anymore? It's dead and gone, man.

5. DirectPlay supports networking and multiplayer gaming. There no OpenXX equivalent meaning that if you need to write your own.

Umm. See above. And you can just use sockets.

6. DirectX is better documented than OpenGL and is easier to learn.

Bollocks. The amount of books, tutorials, and articles out there about OpenGL is massive, and, unlike DirectX, the old stuff are still as valid as they were on the day it were published.

7. Some hardware manufactures are ignoring OpenGL whereas almost all hardware manufacturers support DirectX.

Bollocks, again. Unless you're talking about some crappy little companies that I've never heard of and very few actually use anyway. Nvidia and ATI are the ones that matter and they do OpenGL fine. Maybe the intel cards, but how many gamers use integrated graphics?

My conclusion is that you don't know what you're talking about here. Between inventing APIs that don't even exist and ignoring the fact that there's nothing to stop OpenGL and the non-graphics components of DirectX co-existing, you seem to have no idea.

Durandal wrote:

YT300000 wrote:No, I don't. But there's no dock in Windows. And other stuff that pops up can be turned off.

It's called the Taskbar. It can be auto-hidden, and in the case of poor programming, it will pop up while you're playing a full-screen game.

By the way, to turn off the Dock's auto-hide, contorl-click on the divider line and select "Turn Hiding Off." I know that all you Windows people are used to every god damn thing popping up in a help bubble to tell you how to do it, but at least try digging around the OS before pissing and moaning about easily changeable things.

Easily changable

If I turn hiding off, then all the colors in Quake go to shit, and I have the dock at the bottom of the screen. However, since I can't see the cursor, I don't know how close I am to clicking on it either. So it actually makes it worse. Oh, and I turn off every help feature and office assistant and everything because they annoy the fuck out of me.

So I'm not used to constant help, as you seem to like to stereotype us PC users.

Vertigo1 wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:DirectX is better than OpenGL beacause -

*snip*

3. OpenIL supports accelerated hardware but not many hardware vendors have written drivers for it. On the other hand all hardware vendors support DirectInput

Funny, ATI and nVidia have supported OpenGL for years now, and have shown no signs of stopping. I'm curious where you came up with that.

DirectInput = keyboard, joystick, mouse, neural interface, etc. ATI and nVidia = screen.

Wait, macs can game?!?!?!

Wow, what, did someone labor for years to make a mac compatable pong?

anarchistbunny wrote:Wait, macs can game?!?!?!

Wow, what, did someone labor for years to make a mac compatable pong?

Halo is on the mac. Here's a little thing I came up with when I first heard about it:

Bungie spokesperson: To get Halo on the mac, we used an advanced process known as "retardation." We removed all 3D, bump-mapping, and most of the textures. The Master Chief will now look like this:

Also, since firing weapons used up too much processor power, Halo is now a melee-only game. The vehicles have been removed as well.

Vertigo1 wrote: nVidia, ATI, and the late 3DFX supported OpenGL and showed no signs of stopping.....hell, even the POS onboard intel chipsets supported OpenGL.

Um... I have a 6yr old offboard i740 which does'nt support OpenGL under Win2k/Linux but supports DirectX? Does that count? Of course, it does work under the POSes known as Win98 and Win95, but I'm intentionally being dishonest here. And there are probably more cards that DON"T support DX like stuff designed for *NIX workstations, or workstations in general.

Anyway, isn't it theoretically possible for manufacturers to create a DX implementation for other platforms (not necessarily economically feasible), since Transgaming hasn't gotten sued yet.

Interesting DirectX->OpenGL wrapper here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dxglwrap but appears to have been abandoned for a year with no one looking at it.

Funny, ATI and nVidia have supported OpenGL for years now, and have shown no signs of stopping. I'm curious where you came up with that.

Matrox cards have difficulty with OpenGL, many dont work at all. My old Matrox G450 never worked with OpenGL games. nVidia Riva TNT cards do work with OpenGL but have a lot of difficulty.

I'm curious why this matters. Most people either use the gaming service started by a given company, use kali, or some other multiplayer gaming service. Where the hell does DirectPlay come into the picture here?

Directplay is noy a gaming service. It is the API that all Windows games utilize for multiplayer.

nVidia, ATI, and the late 3DFX supported OpenGL and showed no signs of stopping.....hell, even the POS onboard intel chipsets supported OpenGL.

But they are optimized for DirectX. All card makers today give more importance to DirectX. Many built in acceleration functions can only be used by DirectX.

That probably has something to do with the fact that those other components have no official relation with OpenGL. OpenGL is graphics, and graphics only.

True but OpenXX was supposed to be a complete gaming API like DirectX. If you use OpenGL only you will have to use other third party components for input, sound, multiplayer etc. This why many OpenGL games use DirectX for this functions. Performence suffers since OpenGL is not designed to be used with DirectX.

What the hell are you talking about? There's no such thing as OpenIL.

Never heard of the Open Input Library ?

Err. There's nothing stopping you from using DirectSound or DirectMusic with OpenGL. There's no such thing as DirectAudio either. Maybe the old SDK, pre 8, but who uses that anymore? It's dead and gone, man

Of course they can be used togather but performence will suffer since OpenGL was not designed to be used with DirectX (they are from different vendors who have no inside data on the others software).

DirectSound and DirectMusic were integrated in DirectXAudio in DirectX 8 incase you did not know.

Umm. See above. And you can just use sockets.

DirectPlay is designed specificaly for games to provide some common functionality that multiplayer games use. It is different from Windows Sockets. Study the MSDN if you dont know.

Bollocks. The amount of books, tutorials, and articles out there about OpenGL is massive, and, unlike DirectX, the old stuff are still as valid as they were on the day it were published.

The amount of resources available on DirectX is higher. Every function, every constant, every typedef has been documented. Can you show me where I can find similar level of documentation for OpenGL ?

Bollocks, again. Unless you're talking about some crappy little companies that I've never heard of and very few actually use anyway. Nvidia and ATI are the ones that matter and they do OpenGL fine. Maybe the intel cards, but how many gamers use integrated graphics

Many computers come with integrated graphics. Dont ignore them.

My conclusion is that you don't know what you're talking about here. Between inventing APIs that don't even exist and ignoring the fact that there's nothing to stop OpenGL and the non-graphics components of DirectX co-existing, you seem to have no idea

I have been programming in C++ for 3 years. I know what I am talking about.

True but OpenXX was supposed to be a complete gaming API like DirectX. If you use OpenGL only you will have to use other third party components for input, sound, multiplayer etc. This why many OpenGL games use DirectX for this functions. Performence suffers since OpenGL is not designed to be used with DirectX.

There is no OpenXX library. I don't have the faintest idea where you have gotten the idea that there is from. The only libraries I know of that currently exist in that naming scheme are OpenGL and OpenAL, along with the just standardised OpenML. There is no OpenXX SDK. OpenGL and OpenML have some links, but OpenAL is just a library that uses similar design and conventions.

There used to be an OpenIL, but it was only for image loading and they changed their name to DevIL for some legal reason.

Never heard of the Open Input Library ?

Never. If it exists, it's either very new or very uncommon. A google search turns up nothing but a website in French that mentions it in passing, the name and nothing more, and I have never seen it mention on gamedev.net, flipcode.com, or gamasutra.com. Not exactly what I'd call relevant. Most people I've seen use platform specific input libraries or SDL.

DirectPlay is designed specificaly for games to provide some common functionality that multiplayer games use. It is different from Windows Sockets. Study the MSDN if you dont know.

Yes, it is designed to make development easier and quicker for games. There's still nothing to stop you from using sockets, windows or otherwise to make your games. If you want to have them work on another platform, you don't really have much choice.

The amount of resources available on DirectX is higher. Every function, every constant, every typedef has been documented. Can you show me where I can find similar level of documentation for OpenGL ?

The Blue Book provide documentation at that level, and the OpenGL standard and extension registry are publically available at opengl.org. What else do you need for a reference?

Many computers come with integrated graphics. Dont ignore them.

Yes, because people with cheap POS onboard intel graphics are obviously big-time gamers aren't they? If you don't even have a graphics card you're probably not the target audience for most highend games. We're talking the people who bought Deer Hunter and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire here.

I have been programming in C++ for 3 years. I know what I am talking about.

Quit appealing to your own authority and prove you know what you're talking about then.

But they are optimized for DirectX. All card makers today give more importance to DirectX. Many built in acceleration functions can only be used by DirectX.

And that's just wrong. Why do you think there are so many ATI_XXX and NV_XXX extensions? Because the cards have many features DirectX does not yet support.

Matrox cards have difficulty with OpenGL, many dont work at all. My old Matrox G450 never worked with OpenGL games. nVidia Riva TNT cards do work with OpenGL but have a lot of difficulty.

TNT cards are no longer relevant to, well, anything, but they had good OpenGl support for their time, certainly better than the 3DFX offerings so I don't know what you're talking about.

Neither is the G450. We're talking cards older than the PS2 here and the G450 was never a gamer's card anyway. It was never a fast card, even when it was new and expensive. So gamers mostly ignored it. It had it's niche, but it wasn't gamers.

YT300000 wrote:If I turn hiding off, then all the colors in Quake go to shit, and I have the dock at the bottom of the screen. However, since I can't see the cursor, I don't know how close I am to clicking on it either. So it actually makes it worse.

Then you've got a buggy build of Quake. Try searching for a new version.

Halo is on the mac. Here's a little thing I came up with when I first heard about it:

Bungie spokesperson: To get Halo on the mac, we used an advanced process known as "retardation." We removed all 3D, bump-mapping, and most of the textures.

Hardy-har-har. Halo was originally debuted on a G3 with a Rage 128, and Bungie, prior to selling out to Microsoft, was a Mac-only company for many years. Get your fucking facts straight. Christ you're a moron.