A little help with a game system cooking up

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-18 10:49am

Short form: I don't like the D20 Space Combat Systems I've seen. At least, the hit points for the ships
Hell, the only good one I've seen is Spelljammer.

So I thought I'd cook up my own.

Current issue: Which type of ship should have more hit points per given section of hull (say 10 meters on the side)
(type as in Shuttle, Fighter, Battleship, Courier, etc)

Here's how I currently have them, from highest to lowest

Battleships
Dreadnoughts
Assault Ships
Carriers
Cruisers, Battle (or related roles) <- Probably folded into 'Heavy'
Cruisers, Heavy (or related roles)
Cruiser, Medium (with cruisers, when it doubt, it goes in here)
Cruiser, Light
Frigates
Destroyer
Escort Ships
Corvettes
Freighters & Large Transports
Scouts
Monitors & System Patrol Craft
Cutters
Science & Research Vessels
Gunboats/Raiders
Heavy Shuttles, Couriers
Fighters/Starfigthers
Shuttles, Small transports
Miscellanous Repair Vehicles, Miscellanous non-combat civilian craft

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-02-18 11:35am

Personally I'd switch Frigate with Destroyer. And what is "Escort Ships"? Wouldn't Destroyer and Corvette perform escorts?

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2004-02-18 12:14pm

Depending on how your naval system works, I'd bump carriers up a few notches. I'd put shuttles higher than starfighters. Fighters are generally interceptors, which are fast and light, whereas shuttles must be larger to carry their troops and need more armor to ensure their payload is delivered successfully.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-18 02:59pm

Revised list, with hit points per meter of hull

Ship Size Category; Hull Points per meter (Average)
Space Stations: 50
Battleships: 45
Carriers: 40
Dreadnoughts: 35
Assault Ships: 30
Cruisers, Battle (or related): 32
Cruisers, Heavy (or related): 30
Cruiser, Medium (with cruisers, when it doubt, it goes in here): 28
Cruiser, Light: 26
Destroyer: 24
Frigates: 22
Corvettes: 20
Scouts: 16
Freighters, Large Transports (unarmed and in doubt, Freighter): 15
Monitors/System Patrol Craft: 14
Cutters: 12
Science/Research Vessels: 18
Heavy Shuttles, Couriers: 8
Shuttles, Small transports: 6
Gunboats/Raiders: 5
Fighters/Star Figthers: 3
Miscellaneous Repair Vehicles, Other non-combat civilian craft : 1

going by Star wars ships
Executor would probably be a Battleship or a Space Station
a Star Destroyer would be a Battleship if Executor was a Space Station, otherwise Battleship
Victory Class Star Destroyers would be Dreadnaughts or assault ships
Accalmators would be Assault Ships
Mon Cal Crusiers would be Battle Cruisers
etc

Using Executor as the example, and it's three possible lengths
if you go by the 8000 meter length that would be 360000 - 400000 Hull Points, 12.8 Km would be 576000 - 640000, and 17.8 would be 801000 - 890000 Hull Points

Hmmm, note to self: Get out Revised Star Wars book and check out damage from an Accalamators Guns. Take the average as the value of 200 Gigatons, and use new system points to figure out what I need to adjust Star Wars capital ship weapons by to account for this.

I plan to expand this to other Sci-Fi franchises (my only problem with D20 is the space combat system).
First I plan on Star Trek, then B5, then SG-1, then any other franchise I can get stats for.

If you want a Trek example, NCC1701E would be a battleship.

Before anyone screams 'canon numbers' and tech values, consider Executor at 17.8 Kilometers with 890000 Hull Points vs NCC1701E at 680 meters with 30600 hull points...

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-02-18 03:37pm

And then of course you could in cases like that use tech level modifiers as well to account for various sheild strengths et al...

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2004-02-18 07:00pm

Solauren wrote:
<snip>

going by Star wars ships
Executor would probably be a Battleship or a Space Station
a Star Destroyer would be a Battleship if Executor was a Space Station, otherwise Battleship
Victory Class Star Destroyers would be Dreadnaughts or assault ships
Accalmators would be Assault Ships
Mon Cal Crusiers would be Battle Cruisers
etc

Using Executor as the example, and it's three possible lengths
if you go by the 8000 meter length that would be 360000 - 400000 Hull Points, 12.8 Km would be 576000 - 640000, and 17.8 would be 801000 - 890000 Hull Points

<snip>

I plan to expand this to other Sci-Fi franchises (my only problem with D20 is the space combat system).
First I plan on Star Trek, then B5, then SG-1, then any other franchise I can get stats for.

If you want a Trek example, NCC1701E would be a battleship.

Before anyone screams 'canon numbers' and tech values, consider Executor at 17.8 Kilometers with 890000 Hull Points vs NCC1701E at 680 meters with 30600 hull points...

Unfortunately, on this scale, an ISD would have 72000 hull points, giving it only 235% the hull strength of the E-E, when canon numbers suggest that the ISD would actually be much, much more durable than the E-E. However, since you'd be shooting for playability rather than accuracy, this could work (accurate numbers would suggest that any vessel more potent than an Acclamator would be gross overkill against a large number of Sovereigns.)

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-02-18 07:02pm

Don't forget to factor in object hardness. With hardness of 20, even a 10 hitpoint ship becomes very durable.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-02-18 07:03pm

Acclamators ! > Mon Cal ships...

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-02-18 08:55pm

He could use hard ness and sheild modifiers to work around that, plus there's always gun strength...

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-02-19 01:05am

Seems to be a pretty linear progression of ship armor getting heavier as the ships get bigger. Is this actually the case? Naval experts? It would seem to me that armor per square meter would actually get lighter with bigger and bigger ships, but I don't have any actual knowledge on the subject.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-19 01:35am

The medium cruiser should be eliminated. There should only be light cruisers, heavy cruisers and battle cruisers.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-19 10:02am

I'm leaving medium cruisers in for the 'i'm not sure which it is' type stuff.

As for the tech level concerns, again, playability is the main issue.

The idea is 'pound for pound' equality. Which means a Phaser XII would equal a Heavy Turbolaser Cannon would equal the biggest guns from Babylon 5 wold equal the biggest guns from SG-1 would equal the biggest guns from Andromeda etc.

With games, you have to aim for reasonably fair.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-19 10:27am

It would be better to make the photon torpedo equal to a heavy turbolaser since photons are the commonly used heaviest Fed weapon.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-19 11:26am

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Seems to be a pretty linear progression of ship armor getting heavier as the ships get bigger. Is this actually the case? Naval experts? It would seem to me that armor per square meter would actually get lighter with bigger and bigger ships, but I don't have any actual knowledge on the subject.

Depends on the mechanics of warfare. In World War 2 and before, yes, that was true. Battleships carried much more armor than destroyers and cruisers, for example.

However, carriers were typically lightly armored (if at all) and could be quite large. In modern times, ships don't really have much in the way of armor because armor simply cannot protect a ship, and even if it could it can't protect important things like sensors and communications.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-19 11:33am

evilcat4000 wrote:It would be better to make the photon torpedo equal to a heavy turbolaser since photons are the commonly used heaviest Fed weapon.

True enough, but you forgot Imperial warheads

A quick Star Trek - Star Wars match up for weapons would be

Star wars - Star Trek
Starfighter weapons - Shuttle weapons, Runabout weapons
Light Turbolasers - Phaser V - VII
Medium Turbolasers - Phaser VII - X
Heavy Turbolasers Phaser X+

Energy Torpedoes - TOS era Photons
Concussion Missiles - Movie Era Photons
Proton Torpedoes - TNG Photon
Advanced Concussion Missiles - TNG Photon (ACM's have better range and speed but less firepower, overall equal to a Proton)
Advanced Proton Torpedoes - Qauntum Torpedoes
heavy Rockets - Romulan Plasma Torpedoes
Space Bombs - Borg Weapons?
Seismic Charges - A Warp Core going critical

Now then, as for someoen pointing out about modern ships

Remember, sci-fi ships usually have armor:weapon capacities on the same ratio level as WW2 and prior naval ships.
Also, Sci-Fi carriers would be heavily armored to avoid a lucky torpedo hit getting in an setting off all the magazines of missiles for starfighters...
(that would be hideously disgusting)

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-19 11:36am

Super-Gagme wrote:Personally I'd switch Frigate with Destroyer. And what is "Escort Ships"? Wouldn't Destroyer and Corvette perform escorts?

In the old USN naming scheme, frigates (DL) lead destroyers (DD) with destroyer escorts (DE) doing the escort role. After the fear of the "cruiser gap," that scheme was redone to be CL, DD and FF, respectively.

Corvettes generally lack the range, firepower and sensors to effectively operate in fleet actions.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-02-19 01:43pm

What are the roles of cruisers and destroyers and frigates supposed to be? I never clearly understood what tasks they were supposed to fulfill in a fleet.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-19 04:02pm

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

DESTROYER
The Destroyer is a small, fast warship designed for antisubmarine work. Originally called 'torpedo-boat destroyers', they were designed by Britain to counter the large flotillas built by the French and Russian navies in the late 19th century. They proved so effective that torpedo-boats were more or less abandoned in the early 1900s, but the rise of the submarine found a new task for the ' destroyer'. They proved invaluable as antisubmarine vessels in both the Great War and Second World War.

FRIGATE
A frigate is a light-weight, fast and nimble warship.

CRUISER
A cruiser is a high-speed, comparatively lightly armed warship. Originaly the term cruiser was applied to privateers, fast armed ships which preyed upon merchant shipping in the 17th and 18th centuries.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-19 05:12pm

Uraniun235 wrote:What are the roles of cruisers and destroyers and frigates supposed to be? I never clearly understood what tasks they were supposed to fulfill in a fleet.

Destroyers can escort larger ships or perform their own offensive missions (esp. land-attack). Modern cruisers in the USN are essentially big destroyers with better C4I. Russian cruisers typically were large ships designed for heavy combat actions (and mounted huge antiship missiles and were wallpapered with SAMs and CIWS emplacements).

Frigates are usually small, relatively inexpensive escorts.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-20 02:08am

What about battlecruisers ? Do they even exist today ?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-20 11:09am

Ignoring the nomenclature discussions.....

Everything think that's a good progression?

If so, it's time for me to whip up the stats for various ships (I'll start with Star Wars, then move onto to the hundreds of Star fleet variants I've dug up on the net)

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-20 11:19am

evilcat4000 wrote:What about battlecruisers ? Do they even exist today ?

Some considered the big Soviet/Russian missile cruisers to be battlecruisers, but otherwise they don't exist.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-02-20 11:43pm

So, do people want to see a few example game stats?