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Likely both. They're WotC. Man, when did WotC pick up the Star Wars contracts? We D&D geeks have been whining for a while now. Granted, TSR was worse towards the end, but all those prestige classes in every supplement have gotten out of hand. Of course they're going to screw up continuity; all they care about is marketability.

Split from the 4th page of this thread. ~ Crown.

I'll freely admit I have a personal beef with WOTC, and their sodomising of SW, having spent entirely too much money on their books before wising up. This doesn't detract from the basic correctness of my arguments, it just means they have more venom to them than may be warranted(stupid fracking lousy D20 being used for every system it shouldn't).

And thank you very much, herr Illuminatus Primus, I was unable to phrase your argument correctly in my head(just got access to Shabby Blue's Yahoo groups, which completely shut off blood flow to the brain ).

consequences wrote:I'll freely admit I have a personal beef with WOTC, and their sodomising of SW, having spent entirely too much money on their books before wising up. This doesn't detract from the basic correctness of my arguments, it just means they have more venom to them than may be warranted(stupid fracking lousy D20 being used for every system it shouldn't).

HEY! d20 is infinitely superior. Shut up. *Hugs d20 rulebooks*

Rogue 9 wrote:

consequences wrote:I'll freely admit I have a personal beef with WOTC, and their sodomising of SW, having spent entirely too much money on their books before wising up. This doesn't detract from the basic correctness of my arguments, it just means they have more venom to them than may be warranted(stupid fracking lousy D20 being used for every system it shouldn't).

HEY! d20 is infinitely superior. Shut up. *Hugs d20 rulebooks*

So the concept of using the same basic rules to create and run Luke Skywalker, Vash the Stampede, Captain John Sheridan, Drizzt Do'Urden, and Rand Al'Thor doesn't strike you as patently absurd?

There is one thing that completely killed WOTC for me for SW, and thats the arbitrary level designation for achieving the ranks of Jedi Knight and Master, especially given the way you gain levels in D20. *Yoda Mode* Killing ten thousand Stormtroopers, a Master does not make, yes.

No, it doesn't strike me as absurd because its a bare bones system. All that's essential to it is that its based around the d20 die; other than that you tack on whatever you need in the form of rules.

The rules are way too similar in most cases. The D20 system is the result of Hasbro(the ignorant bastards whose credentials include the destruction of Avalon Hill) attempting to create a universal system to appeal to the largest possible market, while ignoring the complexity a universal system truly needs to support itself(Granted, this may be a deliberate decision to be lazy and attempt to get others to do most of the work, rather than plain stupidity).

Then there's the whole charging 33% or more above what a given book should be priced at(the current consistent record holder being the B5 D20, with a core book and all supplements at least 50% more expensive than any non-D20 equivalent. Plus the releasing of 'Revised' Core books less than two years after the first edition, at an even higher price. The only company that has worked harder to earn my loathing is GW.

I'll be right back with a link as to why RPG books are so expensive and why the prices are the way they are. Its necessary. And written by a former WotC game designer who was laid off and has no reason to love the company. But his site is hell to sift through, so I'll be right back.

Please go ahead, but the continued existence of Steve Jackson games and Palladium among others argues against this theory.

D20 Core book: $40(minimum)

Almost any other Core rule Book $30(Hero system and Red Dwarf RPG are the two recent examples I am personally familiar with)

Bullshit, the D&D core books are $30 each and that's if you don't know about Amazon.

Sorry, my bad, those two are $30 each(so you are paying $60 for the absolute bare minimum needed to play one game) However, Faiths and Pantheons weighs in at $33, and the Forgotten Realms book at $40. What kind of evil bastards price the sourcebooks higher than the core rules? Plus the fact that if you made the mistake of getting the original Core Rules, you had to shell out another $60 to get 3.5.
SW still costs $40(plus the 30-35 if you got the rulebook before they put out the revised edition), with sourcebooks made hardcover for no readily apparent reason(other than the fact it gives them an excuse to charge $30 a pop).

I automatically presume suggested retail, as the discounts should apply pretty evenly across the board(they undoubtedly don't, but that's a windmill for another day)

They're priced higher because of decreased demand. Everybody needs the three core rulebooks to play, but a DM can make up his own world, meaning there is less of a market for setting specific material. Its a specialty item, so they have to charge more to turn any sort of profit at all.

No, its mainly because Hasbro had their own ideas about profit return, and decided to apply them to the RPG market. This will probably work out about as well as the WotC retail chain did for them in the end(being closed down as we speak if you didn't know). There is also the fact that they could publish the damned things as E-books for the most part, and save a crap-load on the distribution end.
Bottom line, RPGs don't make much of a profit. This is especially true if the game manufacturer gives a fuck about anyone else.

Problem with that theory: The cost of the FRCS did not change after Hasbro bought WotC.

Rogue 9 wrote:They're priced higher because of decreased demand. Everybody needs the three core rulebooks to play, but a DM can make up his own world, meaning there is less of a market for setting specific material. Its a specialty item, so they have to charge more to turn any sort of profit at all.

Correction, everybody needs one Core rulebook - the Player's Handbook. ONLY the DM should use the Dungeon Master's Guide and especially the Monster's Handbook; players who use the Monster's Handbook, at the table, will be penalised - namely having a random monster jump out of a treasure chest and eat said PC, for the crime of meta-gaming.

To be honest though, I don't think the Monster's Handbook is entirely necessary.

Granted. But in my group the DM duty alternates, so everybody has all the core books.

Rogue 9 wrote:Granted. But in my group the DM duty alternates, so everybody has all the core books.

Fair enough. My experiences with RPG groups lead me to think that only the DM should use the MH and DMG at the table, while the players should only be allowed the PHB. We had a munchkin who would constantly ask pointed questions whenever the party was confronted by a unique monster, and he'd always try to open up the MG and say: "Hey, this monster, does it happen to look like this thing here?" At which point the DM would tell him to close the fucking thing and play, or someone would throw something at him, or I would somehow try to trick the guy into picking a fight with a Qoatyl. "Oh, he doesn't look so tough. He's probably just a Gnome, casting "Polymorph Self" so that he appears to be a god-like entity. I bet your newly acquired +1 longsword will skewer him."

Fucker took the bait.

Anyway, as far as the SW d20 Core Rulebook goes, it's actually a much better investment than the D&D core rulebooks, remember with D&D you have to purchase at least 1 book (the PHB), or 2 or 3 (if you're a DM), while with SW you only have to buy the one book and it gives you a combination of Player centric and DM-centric information. In hindsight I would have bought the SW rulebook (revised) instead of my PHB and DMG, as to be honest I prefer space opera to fantasy. And besides, d20 rules are easily adapatable, if you're not afraid of a little work.

I only allow my players to use the monstrous if they're capable of summoning creatures to fight for them. I let them have their class handbook or spellbook if they want, but monstrous they only get if they make their lore rolsl.

Why RPGs are Not Too Expensive. Sean K. Reynolds, co author of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and laid off WotC game designer. (He has zero love for WotC, as you will find if you read his rantings on the site and most especially his message board.)

Rogue 9 wrote:I'll be right back with a link as to why RPG books are so expensive

They're a lot cheaper if you're in the HAB.

Stofsk wrote:Correction, everybody needs one Core rulebook - the Player's Handbook.

Actually, every group needs one of each of the core rulebooks. And this is why table-top RPG companies have problems. Even if you're wierd excessives like TSR was with a player's book and a GM's book (and, never mind) you are still only going to sell, garunteed, one set per group. It doesn't need any more. Mabye the players will all buy a copy too, but there's no need to.

So, you've got to do supplements. Worldbooks, additional rules and adventures. However, convincing a well educated and perversly intelligent market like gamers to buy one each instead of one per group or occasionally club is a herculean task. Occasionally you'll find the fanboy with everything, but all his mates won't be so anal, they'll borrow off fanboy and use the photocopier (or scanner/printer) at work.

Player books were the answer and the undisputed masters of this madness has got to be White Wolf. Somehow they convinced their market, (who for reasons unknown are just not as perverse) that you need the Brujah supplement (or whatever splat you character is) to play one. Player books do this by containing extra power ups for a splat so that the players will buy them so that they can use the new rule.


And I agree with Sean Reynold's. RPGs are cheap entertainment. A sole copy of Vampire (the last game I bought) cost me NZ$60 (c.US$30). My friends (6) and I have had 200hrs enjoyment out of it. That's 1400 hours fun for about $100 if you count dice, paper/pens.

quote="YT300000"]

Rogue 9 wrote:I'll be right back with a link as to why RPG books are so expensive

They're a lot cheaper if you're in the HAB. [/quote]
How does that follow?

Actually, every group needs one of each of the core rulebooks.

Not if you want any kind of good time made on the plot points. If people keep having to say "Pass the PHB" all the time it really disrupts play. I know; I run a group of six people with four Player's Handbooks and it still slows us down. Also, it helps to have players work on leveling and such at home between sessions (I roll hit points for them before they leave, but I trust them enough to know that they won't give themselves extra skill points or anything.)

Rogue 9 wrote:Not if you want any kind of good time made on the plot points. If people keep having to say "Pass the PHB" all the time it really disrupts play. I know; I run a group of six people with four Player's Handbooks and it still slows us down. Also, it helps to have players work on leveling and such at home between sessions (I roll hit points for them before they leave, but I trust them enough to know that they won't give themselves extra skill points or anything.)

Shouldn't this be in the 'Games' section?

What could be so damn complex that players need the rulebook so often? 3rd Ed could be really complicated, but I doubt it. Anyways, I dock XP for players who waste time looking shit up and not doing stuff. Try it out. Players learn the rules that apply to them (or get them printed out) real fast.

I'm not the one who split it. It likely should have been split to Games, yes. The need to look up stuff doesn't stem from powergaming; actually the most frequent culprit is the grapple rules followed by some of the more obscure class abilities. I don't let them go flying through the rulebooks looking for some cool combo to save the day.

It makes sense that a RPG book is more expensive than say, a novel. A novel you read once, maybe again in a few years if you really like it, but a RPG book is a reference book, and you can read it over and over, you need to carry it around (not all the time, duh) and sometimes, you never run out of things to read from it - since most people don't read it from start to finish, there's always a page you skipped somewhere

Even if you don't play, they're useful things to have around. A novel is a read-and-forget.

Rogue 9 wrote:How does that follow?

Lets just say that Shep, a scanner and books is a good combo.