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Firstly, I'd like to apologize if this sort of topic comes up regularly in here. I hardly ever peruse this forum, but did a quick scan and didn't see anything directly pertaining to my question.

I'm getting a notebook computer in the very near future, and am not sure which platform to go with. For a while I've wanted a PowerBook, but I'm afraid that my reasons for being drawn to it (crashes less often, more compatible, more efficient, not Microsoft, and less prone to letting me fuck it up in some way) are mostly out-of-date. I have a number of friends/co-workers who switched over to Apple and are very happy, loyal Apple owners, bordering on fanatical, actually. However, both my brother and my dad are major computer dorks; they are rabid PC fans and are trying to convince me to stay with PCs.

Mostly what I'll be running on this computer is Finale (or Sibelius), music notation software, and new(ish) playback software called Kontakt (which takes up a fair amount of memory but nothing preposterous). Other than those two programs, I'd essentially only use it for the basics (music, the occasional movie, internet, solitaire), so I don't really need a mind-numbingly awesome computer to do what I need to do with it. I also already have an old version of Finale for my PC, and it would cost me more to buy a new version for a PowerBook than it would to upgrade my current PC version of the software. However, it would only be about $60 more, so that's not a huge factor. And since I'm considering switching software to go with Sibelius (a slightly more expensive but overall better music notation program), that point might be entirely moot, except to say that it would be easier to switch to an Apple now before I buy Kontakt, the new Finale upgrade/starter Sibelius package.

Roughly speaking, the budget is about $1700, I think. (It's a gift, so I'm not entirely sure where the cap is).

If any of you have had extensive experience with both Apples and PCs recently, I would be very interested to hear your suggestions. I spent a considerable amount of time on a Mac when I was in college and I ended up liking it more than the PC I had at home, but as I am old, the difference between the two may not be as apparent as it was.

So, if that barrage of information was intelligible, which do you recommend and why?



Thank you for your help.

Thread crapping will not be tolerated. And no, it's not just because its Zaia.

Now that the warning is out of the way ...

Apple makes fine laptops. You're a teacher and may be eligible for an educational discount, and your school district may have some sort of deal as well. For your needs, an iBook might just be the ticket. A PowerBook may be a bit expensive for your price range.

On the PC side, my favorite laptops are the IBM ThinkPads. They are more expensive, but tend to be more solidly made. Toshiba is also good and not as expensive as IBM; I would reccomend staying away from Dell and Sony. Compaq's EVO line is good -- but also more expensive.

On all laptops I would recommend getting 512MB of RAM.

Also, what kind of laptop are you looking for? Something light to tote around all the time? Perhaps a desktop replacement?

microsoft based labtops cost less then an apple to begain with. For 1700 you can get a realy good labtop that can do just about anything. The few people I know who have labtops have no problems with them and they work fine. So your better off saving a few bucks and getting a $1500 or less hp or dell.

PowerBooks are sexy, sleek computers. We just got one for wireless testing at the office, and even the PC users at the office were fawning all over it like it was just some piece of meat.

They are expensive, though. On a limited budget, I'd say go for a 14" iBook G4. You're not doing any serious gaming, so the low-end graphics card shouldn't bother you. You also get immunity from virtually every virus in circulation.

It really comes down to which OS you are most comfortable with. Since you are unlikely to run any software which isn't multi-platform, you should go down to a computer store and give both OSX and Windows XP a spin and find out which you like the best, then base your buying decision on that.

Thread crapping? *raises eyebrow*

Anyway:

1. Yes, I am eligible for teacher discounts, which (I believe) put the 15" PowerBook at the tip-top of my price range, possibly a bit over (see here). And yes, Durandal, I know they're sexy and sleek looking. I guess it isn't a good reason to want one computer over another, but that is partly why I'm drawn to the PBs. *sheepish smile*

2. I think at this point I'd rather settle for an iBook instead of a PC, even though I know I can get more stuff with a PC (meaning special deal kinds of things--printer, camera, etc.), so I am looking into the iBook as an alternative to my purty PowerBook.

3. My dad recommended a Toshiba if I were to go with a PC, so no need to worry about Dell or Sony. Ick.

4. The computer I own now (a hand-me-down notebook that's about 6 years old) weighs about 15 pounds (ok, maybe not, but it's heavy) and does NOTHING, so basically anything I get now is going to be an amazing improvement. So, yes, lightweight so I can truck it from school to home and back again would be nice, but not necessary.

5. PCs do cost less than Apples--not as much with the teacher discount Apple offers (which bumps I think about $400 off the prices), but it is definitely a factor.

6. I'm basically so grateful for this gift that I'll be extremely happy with whatever I am given. It'd be wonderful to have a PowerBook, but of course it's not vital.

Toshiba's are good, but I'd agree with Phongn about IBM notebooks being the aboslute best PC notebooks.

One thing you have to consider about Apple's is that Apple has a history of ditching their users with software upgrades, so if you plan to keep your machine for a long time (~ 5 years) I think the PC has a little bit more staying power. Apple is currently transitioning to 64-bit CPU's and I'm a little concerned that they plan to lock out older hardware eventually (much as they did with the OSX shift) so it's something worth considering.

The Kernel wrote:Toshiba's are good, but I'd agree with Phongn about IBM notebooks being the aboslute best PC notebooks.

Some of the IBM T and R series are within her price range as well, the R giving her more bang for the buck but also being heavier. The X is nice and light, but you have to buy an external optical drive or get the media slice.

One thing you have to consider about Apple's is that Apple has a history of ditching their users with software upgrades, so if you plan to keep your machine for a long time (~ 5 years) I think the PC has a little bit more staying power. Apple is currently transitioning to 64-bit CPU's and I'm a little concerned that they plan to lock out older hardware eventually (much as they did with the OSX shift) so it's something worth considering.

True that, though depending on what she does she might not have to upgrade all that often. People still have ancient Macs running just fine on older software.

Zaia wrote:Thread crapping? *raises eyebrow*

There have been unfun Mac/PC comparison threads here in the past.

2. I think at this point I'd rather settle for an iBook instead of a PC, even though I know I can get more stuff with a PC (meaning special deal kinds of things--printer, camera, etc.), so I am looking into the iBook as an alternative to my purty PowerBook.

The iBook G4 would be a good choice; the 12" PowerBook is not that much of an advantage, despite having great looks.

5. PCs do cost less than Apples--not as much with the teacher discount Apple offers (which bumps I think about $400 off the prices), but it is definitely a factor.

AFAIK, not that much of a discount but you do get some.

phongn wrote: Some of the IBM T and R series are within her price range as well, the R giving her more bang for the buck but also being heavier. The X is nice and light, but you have to buy an external optical drive or get the media slice.

Most of the X series seem to offer optical drives by default, and as always I recommend the Pentium M as it is such a killer mobile processor. I think the IBM X30 would fit her budget nicely, and though it isn't as sleek as the Apple, it is extremely functional.

True that, though depending on what she does she might not have to upgrade all that often. People still have ancient Macs running just fine on older software.

Yeah, but you can't run the latest version of OSX with anything but a very recent Mac. OTOH, I have a 300Mhz PII running Windows XP just fine. *shrug*, I doubt it will be a big issue as Zaia doesn't strike me as the kind of person that will frequently upgrade, but its worth noting.

The Kernel wrote:Most of the X series seem to offer optical drives by default, and as always I recommend the Pentium M as it is such a killer mobile processor. I think the IBM X30 would fit her budget nicely, and though it isn't as sleek as the Apple, it is extremely functional.

IBM Link. Um, most of them don't -- and you have to use the Media Slice or docking station if you do. However, you could get an external USB CD-RW Drive for that.

The Kernel wrote:TOne thing you have to consider about Apple's is that Apple has a history of ditching their users with software upgrades, so if you plan to keep your machine for a long time (~ 5 years) I think the PC has a little bit more staying power.

I think that's a consequence of introducing a new OS more than anything. OS X now has a more or less solid set of requirements (you want a G4, Quartz Extreme GPU and about 512 MB of RAM), and it's only gotten faster on the same hardware with each successive release. There's still a lot of room left under the hood for Apple to tweak it, as well. The iBook has a G4 processor with a Quartz Extreme-capable GPU; it should be able to keep up for quite a few years to come.

Yeah, but you can't run the latest version of OSX with anything but a very recent Mac. OTOH, I have a 300Mhz PII running Windows XP just fine. *shrug*, I doubt it will be a big issue as Zaia doesn't strike me as the kind of person that will frequently upgrade, but its worth noting.

Oh, hogwash. We're running Panther, Jaguar and Puma on a B&W G3/350 (circa 1998) and several G3 iMacs (circa 2000) in the office, and it runs comparably to a PII running XP. Slow, but usable. Also, all those machines run Panther noticeably faster than Jaguar and far faster than Puma.

Apple is currently transitioning to 64-bit CPU's and I'm a little concerned that they plan to lock out older hardware eventually (much as they did with the OSX shift) so it's something worth considering.

I seriously doubt that they'll force users to upgrade to a G5 to run the latest OS X any time soon. Panther isn't even 64-bit. The great thing about the G5 is that it runs all PowerPC code natively, 32-bit or 64-bit.

Some small advice for the resident sex goddess...

DO NOT GO WITH A FUCKIN' HP!!!! THEY ARE STINKING PIECES OF CRAP!

That done with... seriously, Hewlett-Packards stink to high heaven. I had one for about a year; within six months it had about zero battery life, was slowed down like you wouldn't believe, and the heat was doin' crazy things to it. I'd recommend either Dell or Toshiba; Compaq comes in a good second (i'm actually typing this on a Compaq laptop, in fact).

I haven't handled Apples, so I wouldn't know... they're attractive because of their better battery life though. The interface is kinda weird, though-- I prefer Windows. You can get some awesome stuff there for the price range you're talking about... my laptop came in at about $500, it's got 3-hour battery life, DVD/CDR drive, and more bells'n'whistles than you could imagine.

Go for it, babe!

Durandal wrote: I think that's a consequence of introducing a new OS more than anything. OS X now has a more or less solid set of requirements (you want a G4, Quartz Extreme GPU and about 512 MB of RAM), and it's only gotten faster on the same hardware with each successive release. There's still a lot of room left under the hood for Apple to tweak it, as well. The iBook has a G4 processor with a Quartz Extreme-capable GPU; it should be able to keep up for quite a few years to come. Hell, we're running Panther on a B&W G3/350 in the office, and it works finely.

Oh certainly, but Apple is slowly realizing that by pushing the envelope further and further with each annual release, they get both a steady stream of OS revenues AND they give their users a reason to upgrade (more features needing more hardware to run acceptably).

And I tried running Panther on an old iMac 400MHz with 256MB of Ram and it is dog slow. Granted I really didn't try to fine tune it much, but Apple does tend to push the envelope more then say Microsoft.

I seriously doubt that they'll force users to upgrade to a G5 to run the latest OS X any time soon. Panther isn't even 64-bit. The great thing about the G5 is that it runs all PowerPC code natively, 32-bit or 64-bit.

Probably not, but I've seen stranger things with the transitions between OS9 and OSX and the general refusal to continue support of OS9 (which is still a big part of the Mac userbase). From my perspective, I don't think Apple will fuck its users over, but I don't trust them not to.

phongn wrote:

The Kernel wrote:Most of the X series seem to offer optical drives by default, and as always I recommend the Pentium M as it is such a killer mobile processor. I think the IBM X30 would fit her budget nicely, and though it isn't as sleek as the Apple, it is extremely functional.

IBM Link. Um, most of them don't -- and you have to use the Media Slice or docking station if you do. However, you could get an external USB CD-RW Drive for that.

Well, the X31 does, and that has been highly praised as the best notebook IBM has ever built.

Honestly, whatever OS you prefer. I really don't think the hardware difference is that noticable anymore. Since as others have said you'll be running very common software, it really doesn't matter.

I can tell you on good authority that Dells are pieces of shit. My keyboard has stopped working and I've got a three inch long crack in the case, rendering my notebook an underpowered desktop.

RedImperator wrote:I can tell you on good authority that Dells are pieces of shit. My keyboard has stopped working and I've got a three inch long crack in the case, rendering my notebook an underpowered desktop.

Hmm I am using a Dell laptop (have been for close to 21 months) and the only thing to go so far has been my internal Combo drive (which isn't a huge shock as I do a serious amount of burning/ripping). Although I have heard the comments about Dell keypads before (and only after I forked out the cash), but this is more of a desktop replacement and it is still going strong.

For my money, the Apple laptops are just damn sexy!

from what i've seen and heard, iBooks tend to be very reliable, relatively easy to use, and make excellent production machines. since you don't seem to be worried about gaming too much, an iBook might be the best option to go with. there's also a considerable range of them, varying in price range anywhere from $900.00 to $2k+.

PC Laptops are great for productivity as well, but less so for reliability, depending on the brand you get. IBM's laptops are excellent, and apparently Sonys have been doing quite well lately. i'd recommend avoiding Compaq or HP, however. i haven't had very good experience with either compay. Acer has a very nice, slim notebook available for around $1300 (i think it's Acer anyway), that's perfect for carrying around. not the best performance wise, but it's good for basic productivity, and includes a cd-rw dvd combo. E Machines is another good option. they have a thin notebook available for around $1400, includes the combo optical drive, nice HD, and an AMD processor at 2000+.

I have a one-year-old Toshiba currently, and I love it: it's light years better than my shitty Dell, which had major keyboard, dead pixel and motherboard problems (and Dell charges extortionate prices for replacement components).

Anyway, if you comparison shop Toshiba (or even IBM) versus Apple, I think you will find that, to get the same features (especially screen size/resolution and RAM) the Apple will be about 50% more expensive. The issue of screen size and quality can't be overstated (especially if it is going to be your primary machine) and you're going to get way better bang for your buck out of a PC on that count.

On a related note, is there such thing as a "left-handed notebook"? Cause my father bought a Toshiba a couple years ago, really cheap, but it has all the stuff in the wrong side (cd-rom drive on the right, pain in the ass to open with the mouse there).

dunno about left handed per se. but quite a few notebooks offer the CD Rom drives in the front. Notably IBMs. not sure if any of them offer drives on the opposite side, as that's the usual location for the PC Cards, various ports, etc.

Slartibartfast wrote:On a related note, is there such thing as a "left-handed notebook"? Cause my father bought a Toshiba a couple years ago, really cheap, but it has all the stuff in the wrong side (cd-rom drive on the right, pain in the ass to open with the mouse there).

Some have the drive on the left, some have it on the right and others have it on the front. Some have multiple drive bays so you can switch stuff around, too.

The Kernel wrote:Oh certainly, but Apple is slowly realizing that by pushing the envelope further and further with each annual release, they get both a steady stream of OS revenues AND they give their users a reason to upgrade (more features needing more hardware to run acceptably).

They're not pushing the envelope if each new release is faster than the last one on the same hardware. Some specific features may require bigger iron (like Exposé and Quartz Extreme), but that doesn't mean that OS X won't run on older machines. It actually runs pretty well on old G4's (c. 1999) with Rage 128's.

And I tried running Panther on an old iMac 400MHz with 256MB of Ram and it is dog slow. Granted I really didn't try to fine tune it much, but Apple does tend to push the envelope more then say Microsoft.

Memory is cheap. Throw 768 MB in there, and you'll notice a huge difference. My mom runs Jaguar on her 350 MHz iMac with 768 MB of RAM and hasn't complained once about speed.

And yes, Apple does tend to look further ahead that Microsoft. The OS mostly feels sluggish in window resizing. Scrolling is more or less acceptable. Other than that, it's a multitasking champ in real performance.

Probably not, but I've seen stranger things with the transitions between OS9 and OSX and the general refusal to continue support of OS9 (which is still a big part of the Mac userbase). From my perspective, I don't think Apple will fuck its users over, but I don't trust them not to.

OS 9 is dead, and it should stay that way. It's an unstable mass of hacked code, and Apple was right to drop it like a bad habit. OS X is the present and the future. OS 9 is the dark, dark past.

Going shopping tomorrow to play with a number of different laptops, so we'll see what happens with that.

Thank you all again for you assistance, and for not crapping on my thread like a pidgeon.

The Dude wrote:I have a one-year-old Toshiba currently, and I love it: it's light years better than my shitty Dell, which had major keyboard, dead pixel and motherboard problems (and Dell charges extortionate prices for replacement components).

I can vouch for that, a new hard drive and combo drive set me back $800. Bastards.