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Next year my CS class will have an open curriculum, and the teacher has suggested making a game or mod (about 24 people over a whole school year). Any ideas on what to mod, what engine to use, whether to build one from an OSS engine such as Crystal Space, etc?

Also, should a space sim be to scale and favor semi-realistic physics (with exception of gravity manipulation, FTL, and shields)? Or simply arcade style?
As an example for the former, having to turn 180° to slow down, unless one has engines in the front, etc. or just have flightsim style physics minus gravity? Weapons? I'm thinking nuke-pumped lasers, or just nukes, released from fighters or missiles.

Also, should the universe favor carriers with fighters being armed with bomb-pumped laser bombs and a laser for anti-fighter/bomber purposes, or capships lobbing missiles at each other? With the latter though, one loses the "fun" factor, and with the former, one loses realism, since fighters would be shredded by lasers/point defense (one could rationalize by upping shield technology).

Avg combat distance?

What about combat in orbit (most likely situation)? Should I just ignore the planet. What role would planetary defenses play?

Yes, I'm perfectly aware that actually implementing this is just wank. Hell the whole idea of manned ships in combat is wank. Still, ideas?

So it seems you plan to do a space sim then? In a year? I think you're looking a bit too quickly ahead for such a short time. And yes, a year is a short time :p Our third year involves writing a game as a group project and they give us 6 months to produce something like 3D air hockey, with realistic physics. And people struggle to make 6 months, there is no balancing needed in no, no real detail or file handling. Maybe you should re-consider the space sim?

I would go wth a Hard Science space sim.

Realistic physics, no shields, and if you must a fom of space folding for FTL. Game would be capitalship command/fighter combat complete with trying desperatly not to be detected by your enemies.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I would go wth a Hard Science space sim.

Realistic physics, no shields, and if you must a fom of space folding for FTL. Game would be capitalship command/fighter combat complete with trying desperatly not to be detected by your enemies.

Hard science fiction? Bah!

Have Captian Quirk and his plasma-death-ray trooper fight the blob!

have anything useful to contribute? No? Then STFU

Alyrium Denryle wrote:have anything useful to contribute? No? Then STFU

All i'm saying is that a little clese (sp) sci-fi isn't bad.

Hard Scifi has never been done in a game to my knowledge. Cliche' scifi is overused and will becme stupid...

Super-Gagme wrote:So it seems you plan to do a space sim then? In a year? I think you're looking a bit too quickly ahead for such a short time. And yes, a year is a short time :p Our third year involves writing a game as a group project and they give us 6 months to produce something like 3D air hockey, with realistic physics. And people struggle to make 6 months, there is no balancing needed in no, no real detail or file handling. Maybe you should re-consider the space sim?

Well we are allowed to use whatever free 3d engines that are available, and physics engines, (it may be implemented as a Galactic Conquest BF1942 mod for example... physics in that is a problem though). Anyway, it appears that space sims are easier than FPS, since one doesn't have to animate body parts as much .

For effective combat distance with fighters I like it up close and personal. Sure, you could have a multi kilometer standoff with powerful longrange weapons, but that gets boring fast. "Fire missle, wait, see blip dissapear off radar" is only fun so many times. Twisting and turning in a dogfight is just more fun than longrange standoffs. With the idea of real physics this could make dogfigting a very unique experience in this game.

That said, do make a long maximum (not effective) range on weapons so you in theory could take down an enemy that's far away. This should in no way be easy to do, but just doable for the sense of style.

Capships they can have a longer range. They don't need as much "fun" factor as the fighters. For gameplay purposes fighters must have some (even if minor) significance in capship battles. Like surgical strikes or so. This means that capships must be pretty close (not above 10-15 kilometers depending on fighter speed) to allow fighters to reach the enemy capship.

That's how I would like it, anyway.

One thing I'd like to see sometime is someone doing away with % hull strengths. That always pissed me off. "Pound on the gigantical battleship with 5,2601 laser shots that shouldn't even singe the paintjob and it goes boom!"

If I were going to set up a paradigm, fighters would be useful for surgical strikes like McNum said, but could never damage the actual hull of a cap ship. To do that, you'd need a torpedo boat with big ass torpedoes or another cap ship. At most, fighter-carried anti-capship bombs should be able to take out heavier surface targets like large turrets and hanger bays (would be real useful to collapse the ceiling on those hangers when the ship is desperately trying to launch fighters).

Not saying that's the best way to go about it, that's just what I would do.

Well, if you go Hard Science the focus goes from being able to take a hit, to avoiding beng detected, let alone hit, at all. Without shields there is only so much that can be done to protect a ship Point defense, ECM and a strong

Fighters would be used in ncrese the ships sensor range and to be able to use active sesors without actually giving away its own(capitalship) location.

Once the enemy ship is found, either the fighters would engaage, or, if in range, the capital would open fire with whatever wapons t possess(missiles. lasers, whatever works)

and it goes from there.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well, if you go Hard Science the focus goes from being able to take a hit, to avoiding beng detected, let alone hit, at all. Without shields there is only so much that can be done to protect a ship Point defense, ECM and a strong

Fighters would be used in ncrese the ships sensor range and to be able to use active sesors without actually giving away its own(capitalship) location.

Once the enemy ship is found, either the fighters would engaage, or, if in range, the capital would open fire with whatever wapons t possess(missiles. lasers, whatever works)

and it goes from there.

What about the combat ranges? I'm thinking keep the shields to artificially enhance the combat lifetime of ships (otherwise, a few nuke pumped lasers will do it in rather quickly). Have bombers attempt to destroy turrets, hangers, and sensors, while the capships fire heavy torpedoes (these can be shot down by point defense, hence the need for fighters to eliminate these.

Ships will not have windows. All guidance will be performed by radar (would microwave range wavelengths be better in space, due to lack of atmosphere)? Lasers will be invisible to enemies (what pilot sees is a visualization on monitor from his own weapons, and those of his allies).

Combat will take place at around hundreds of km, not thousands/tens of thousands, since lasers are too weak for anything other than point defense/antifighter, necessitating the usage of torpedoes, which have limited range.

The problem is the manuverability of fighters, due to possibly limited fuel, and the requirement to completely turn the fighter to halt or, say change velocity to 90° away from current (unless one puts main engines in the front also). A possiblity would be to have seperate types, with the ones with more thrusters/engines, but slower designated as fighters, and the ones with less thrusters, but more speed as bombers... manuver for bomber would probably be accelerate straight toward a section of the ship, release bomb (which should travel straight due to inertia and lack of gravity), then turn ship 90° or more to get out of the way of the nuke (it may be somewhat focused with shield technology, but some still leaks out, which is bad for an unshielded fighter.

Unfortunately this will make them too easy to shoot down, especially with lasers which require no leading.

Ships should have different shield sections (front/rear, plus individual turrets/hangers/sensors).

Stealth will be used to rationalize radar range in hundreds of km, with ECM reducing it further. Capships at range will not be able to determine precise location of enemy capship, requiring radar platforms such as fighters/bombers/dedicated ship to pinpoint ship location guide torpedoes. Capships will merely fire torpedoes in the general direction, unless one decides to fight point blank. Datalinking will be advanced and may/may not be jamproof, so everything allies see, one will also see.
ECM/ radar platforms and ships will be available to reduce the range of radar, coupled with stealth technology. They will be prime targets though, due to brightness on radar. Heat from weapons may be detectable.

Of course, this is all wank, and probably only 10% implemented, if at all (since a lot of people in CS are obsessed with BF1942 mods, which will not have the capability).

An interesting idea to have would be to have ships be able to take down fighters on the opposite side of the map, assuming one has a specialized radar platform in the vicinity (since one does have lasers, which have for practical purposes infinite range). Obviously that will make these kinds a ship a prime target.

What about the combat ranges? I'm thinking keep the shields to artificially enhance the combat lifetime of ships (otherwise, a few nuke pumped lasers will do it in rather quickly). Have bombers attempt to destroy turrets, hangers, and sensors, while the capships fire heavy torpedoes (these can be shot down by point defense, hence the need for fighters to eliminate these.

Of you are going to have defenses like that, have gravity driven ships that project an artificial gravity well. That would slow down weapons and act as a shield

Ships will not have windows. All guidance will be performed by radar (would microwave range wavelengths be better in space, due to lack of atmosphere)? Lasers will be invisible to enemies (what pilot sees is a visualization on monitor from his own weapons, and those of his allies).

That would work.

Combat will take place at around hundreds of km, not thousands/tens of thousands, since lasers are too weak for anything other than point defense/antifighter, necessitating the usage of torpedoes, which have limited range.

Lasers would be short ranged yes, but a torp has theoretically unlimited range. It fires its main thrust, then in space can coast for... ever... Effective targeting range could be that low, but the range of the actual weapons could be much higher

The problem is the manuverability of fighters, due to possibly limited fuel, and the requirement to completely turn the fighter to halt or, say change velocity to 90° away from current (unless one puts main engines in the front also).

Design them like Starfuries, engines in front and back.

Stealth will be used to rationalize radar range in hundreds of km, with ECM reducing it further. Capships at range will not be able to determine precise location of enemy capship, requiring radar platforms such as fighters/bombers/dedicated ship to pinpoint ship location guide torpedoes. Capships will merely fire torpedoes in the general direction, unless one decides to fight point blank. Datalinking will be advanced and may/may not be jamproof, so everything allies see, one will also see.
ECM/ radar platforms and ships will be available to reduce the range of radar, coupled with stealth technology. They will be prime targets though, due to brightness on radar. Heat from weapons may be detectable.

If radar is used, passive sensors will pic you up like a becon.. Passive sensors would have to be used to pick up reacor exhaust energy signals etc. Necessitating running the ship silent.

this would make it much like submarine warfare in space, has the potential to be very very addicting.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Combat will take place at around hundreds of km, not thousands/tens of thousands, since lasers are too weak for anything other than point defense/antifighter, necessitating the usage of torpedoes, which have limited range.

Lasers would be short ranged yes, but a torp has theoretically unlimited range. It fires its main thrust, then in space can coast for... ever... Effective targeting range could be that low, but the range of the actual weapons could be much higher

And what do you think a laser does? Goes out to a certain point and just stops?

*SMACK*

Well, you cant exactly target accuratly at extreme ranges. So their targeting would be limited to sensor range(uness you want to rake space pointlessly)

However, a torp wthout fuel could still be able to hit an object that is impossible to accuratly target with laser weapons.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well, you cant exactly target accuratly at extreme ranges. So their targeting would be limited to sensor range(uness you want to rake space pointlessly)

Keep in mind the TTT of a laser weapon is far higher than any torpedo. This means that unless you're engaging at millions of KM, there will be almost no time to dodge the incoming blast.

However, a torp wthout fuel could still be able to hit an object that is impossible to accuratly target with laser weapons.

You think a torpedo will just get lucky with passive sensors?

You think a torpedo will just get lucky with passive sensors?

More like using simple maths to attempt to target something without having to use active sensors, or to get around obstacles even if the missile is out of fuel. It would be a hard shot, but doable.

Pu-239 wrote: Any ideas on what to mod, what engine to use

Starshatter

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I would go wth a Hard Science space sim.

Realistic physics, no shields, and if you must a fom of space folding for FTL. Game would be capitalship command/fighter combat complete with trying desperatly not to be detected by your enemies.

So the Independence War games then.

Well my idea was to fire the torpedo at the general direction of the enemy, then hand over radar guidance to a fighter or dedicated sensor ship (though what about scrapping sensor platforms alltogether and simply using fighters assigned by the team. Then again read below.

What about three modes for the visualization- optical, radar, passive IR/radar detection (showing only exhaust/weapons fire for simplicity), plus the radar (very bright) if on? Optical being useful only around a a sun/in orbit, but ships are painted black. Combat is unlikely to take place in deep space though. It would probably be difficult to display all simultaneously though. Of course, no one is likely to use passive until all the sensor ships have been destroyed. As for ECM, for simplicity's sake, it will be on every ship to explain short radar range. Data linking sending info to allies will also light up on passive, to compensate for now large range, ignoring possibilty of stealth (properties of which would be destroyed by micrometeorites). All this radar/passive stuff is probaby going to be rather difficult to implement though.

Since capships will be blind in active mode, fighters will be needed to know where to fire torpedo at. Once the torpedo gets close enough, it should be able to steer itself autonomously, with optional active radar or external guidance from fighters (someone has to be looking at the ship)... if torp loses contact, it detonates at last known position.

Radar will probably be short wavelength, and embellished by combat computers with color, to explain why things look like they were seen in visible light (one needs special effects after all).

Commanders marking spots on the map?

What about overheating, with systems malfunctioning after a certain temp, and the ship emitting more radiation?

Optional trek style manuvering for capships by specifying coords/direction?

In the interests of playability, have fighters respawn, and new ships warp in after some are destroyed?

This appears to be getting a little too complex..., esp sensor visualization. and how an allied fighter on active will illuminate for other allies to see.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

You think a torpedo will just get lucky with passive sensors?

More like using simple maths to attempt to target something without having to use active sensors, or to get around obstacles even if the missile is out of fuel. It would be a hard shot, but doable.

You think you can hit a maneuvering target without even using passive sensors? How, a diving rod?

Pu-239 wrote:Well my idea was to fire the torpedo at the general direction of the enemy, then hand over radar guidance to a fighter or dedicated sensor ship (though what about scrapping sensor platforms alltogether and simply using fighters assigned by the team. Then again read below.

From a realism standpoint(Which I must assume people care about in this for them to be starting down the ideas they have), a dedicated 'forward observer' platform will outperform a fighter jerryrigged to do that AND fight every time.

What about three modes for the visualization- optical, radar, passive IR/radar detection (showing only exhaust/weapons fire for simplicity), plus the radar (very bright) if on? Optical being useful only around a a sun/in orbit, but ships are painted black. Combat is unlikely to take place in deep space though. It would probably be difficult to display all simultaneously though. Of course, no one is likely to use passive until all the sensor ships have been destroyed. As for ECM, for simplicity's sake, it will be on every ship to explain short radar range. Data linking sending info to allies will also light up on passive, to compensate for now large range, ignoring possibilty of stealth (properties of which would be destroyed by micrometeorites). All this radar/passive stuff is probaby going to be rather difficult to implement though.

You could do two ranges of detection, and force the player to activate one, increasing his own visibility.

Since capships will be blind in active mode, fighters will be needed to know where to fire torpedo at. Once the torpedo gets close enough, it should be able to steer itself autonomously, with optional active radar or external guidance from fighters (someone has to be looking at the ship)... if torp loses contact, it detonates at last known position.

What makes passive sensors impossible that they would be blind?

Radar will probably be short wavelength, and embellished by combat computers with color, to explain why things look like they were seen in visible light (one needs special effects after all).

Commanders marking spots on the map?

What about overheating, with systems malfunctioning after a certain temp, and the ship emitting more radiation?

Optional trek style manuvering for capships by specifying coords/direction?

In the interests of playability, have fighters respawn, and new ships warp in after some are destroyed?

This appears to be getting a little too complex..., esp sensor visualization. and how an allied fighter on active will illuminate for other allies to see.

Just wait until you get into lasers and how they diffuse over extreme ranges. Or trying to display the ranges you can expect these things to operate at!

Since capships will be blind in active mode, fighters will be needed to know where to fire torpedo at. Once the torpedo gets close enough, it should be able to steer itself autonomously, with optional active radar or external guidance from fighters (someone has to be looking at the ship)... if torp loses contact, it detonates at last known position.

What makes passive sensors impossible that they would be blind?

Oops, I meant passive, and they will be blind because the range would be sufficiently far enough for any radiation emmissions to be too diffuse. Turn on active radar and torps will start flying toward your capship... yes, they can get shot down, but lasers will overheat (maybe have each ship only has 1-2 large lasers, with the energy redirected to turrets with mirrors?).

Pu-239 wrote:

Since capships will be blind in active mode, fighters will be needed to know where to fire torpedo at. Once the torpedo gets close enough, it should be able to steer itself autonomously, with optional active radar or external guidance from fighters (someone has to be looking at the ship)... if torp loses contact, it detonates at last known position.

What makes passive sensors impossible that they would be blind?

Oops, I meant passive, and they will be blind because the range would be sufficiently far enough for any radiation emmissions to be too diffuse. Turn on active radar and torps will start flying toward your capship... yes, they can get shot down, but lasers will overheat (maybe have each ship only has 1-2 large lasers, with the energy redirected to turrets with mirrors?).

I dunno. Passive sensors(IE Telescopes) can do great things at a distance now. But I like the laser/mirror thing.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well, if you go Hard Science the focus goes from being able to take a hit, to avoiding beng detected, let alone hit, at all. Without shields there is only so much that can be done to protect a ship Point defense, ECM and a strong

Fighters would be used in ncrese the ships sensor range and to be able to use active sesors without actually giving away its own(capitalship) location.

Once the enemy ship is found, either the fighters would engaage, or, if in range, the capital would open fire with whatever wapons t possess(missiles. lasers, whatever works)

and it goes from there.

I was talking about stuff like Star Wars and Freespace. Obviously for Hard sci-fi it's a lot different.