A Homeworld 2 rewrite

[Alyeska]

Its sad when a fan can create a better story for a game then makers of the game. Well here is my plot concept for Homeworld 2.

For those who read the manual it would explain more of Kharak history as well as some history points from before the Hiigarans were exhiled. This can mirror what was printed for the Homeworld game. Also in the manual will be more recent history. Mentions about the Beast Wars, mentions about how the Hiigarans and the Taidan mended fences over the years. How the Imperialists were defeated and the Turanic raiders driven away.

Then something strange happens. Over a period of some months outer colonies and outposts at the edge of the Galaxy go missing. Recon flights sent occasionally go missing or report that the colonies have been outright wiped out. Something strange is going on. This continues for some time and alarm slowly builds in the Galaxy.

Now you take part as the player. You start out on the Higaran carrier the Cal’Shto. (all ship designs will stay the same as portrayed in Homeworld 2). The Cal’Shto was named after the second Higaran carrier built during the trek to Higara and the same ship that was consumed by the Beast. The Cal’Shto is on a heavy recon mission. Escorting the Cal’Shto is a Battle Cruiser and two destroyers along with a couple frigates. The mission starts with the Cal’Shto investigating a repair depot that went offline just hours before. The Cal’Shto closes range and spots a massive enemy fleet swarming the base and destroying everything. The Vagyr. The Cal’Shto momentarily launches a fighter strike to try and defend the base. It is soundly defeated. Now the Cal’Shto realizes that it is in danger. The Battlecruiser and a destroyer along with half the frigates fight a stalling action to let the Cal’Shto escape and warn Higara about the danger.

So that’s the first mission. You don’t get direct control of the bigger ships, just the Cal’Shto and its fighters. You of course loose the big ships aside for a single destroyer (a ship you can’t currently replace). The first 1/3 of the game has to do with the Cal’Shto trying to reach Higara with its information. After the Cal’Shto reaches Higarra the Vagyr effectively become a galaxy wide threat. They have started to attack colonies and planets everywhere. The Taidan are crumpling, the Higarangs barely holding the line. The Bentusi just can’t be everywhere at once and their ships are slowly being worn away. The Higarans continue to fight and try to learn more information from the Vagyr. The Higarans learn of a series of very important targets within the Vagyr controlled areas and they decide to launch a series of attacks.

Now the Higarans can barely afford large ships so only two Battleships were built. The Kuun-Lan and the Wrath of Kharak. The Wrath of Kharak is kept at Higara for defensive purposes. A half dozen large battle groups are sent out from Higara. The Cal’Shto leads one and the Kuun-Lan leads another. Through a series of battles both of these ships lead their battles succesfuly against prime Vagyr targets. They also learn of the importance of the Hyperspace Core.

With information about the Hyperspace Core the Cal’Shto returns as does the Kuun-Lan. The rest of the Higaran battlegroups sent out were destroyed. Upon realizing just how dangerous a threat the Vagyr are and how savegly they were destroying the galaxy the Higarans realize that there is nothing they can do to survive. They must run.

The Pride of Higara had been under construction for some years. She was to act as a flagship for the fleet as Higara spread its influence. With knowledge of the Hyperspace Core the Higarans realize they have a chance to escape. Upon first activation of the Core the Bentusi take note and send the remnants of their forces to Higara to aide in their final stand. Higara plans on finishing a barely functional Mothership and equip it with the Core so that it can escape, possibly beyond the Galaxy. To buy time the Bentusi make a far jump with the Cal’Shto and Kuun-Lan battlegroups to the first point entry made by the Vagyr. This is designed to divert attention and learn about the Vagyr’s intentions.

It is soon realized that the Vagyr are an all conquering race that have completely conquered two galaxies and were soon to conquer this one as well. They are a patient race. They have to be because of how long it takes between conquerings. It turns out the Nagarok from the Beast Wars was a surviving ship trying to run from the Vagyr. It was that races only hope of survival. Knowing how serious this threat is the Higaran and Bentusi forces find the source of the incursion and shut it down. The point of entry into the Galaxy is some sort of spacial distortion. Without it being kept open no further reinforcements could get through. Now the Higaran and Bentusi forces fight their way home.

On the last mission before having to head back to Higara the Cal’Shto is caught off guard by the Vagy defenses at a key repair and rearming installation. The Cal’Shto calls for help and the Kuun-Lan and her battlegroup appear. For a moment things look good, but more Vagyr reinforcements arrive right on top of the Kuun-Lan and her battlegroup. After fighting a valiant fight the Kuun-Lan is destroyer along with most of its group. The survivors link up with the Cal’Shto, then with the Bentusi and make the final jump home.

At Higara things are rapidly falling apart. Most of the Taidan republic is destroyed. The Higarans are left defending their homeworld. Aiding in the defense is the Nomad Moon II by the Taidan as well as a Tiamat mothership. The bulk of the Taidan fleet is there as well. Realizing their only chance to escape was to work together and use Hyper Space cores the Higarans rapidly finish construction of the Pride of Higara.

The final mission has the Cal’Shto and the Wrath of Kharack (under you control) along with two surviving Bentusi Trading stations lead a diversionary break out attack on a Vagyr encircling force. You fight to the bitter end loosing almost every ship. If you survive Bentus (the big Bentusi harbor station) and Pride of Higara will jump out with surviving Higaran and Taidan colonists and the Tiamat mothership.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

That's the end of the game? No victory? That sucks. How did the original Homeworld 2 end?

[Beowulf]

That's the end of the game? No victory? That sucks. How did the original Homeworld 2 end?

You find Sajuuk, beat the Vaygr, and kick unholy amounts of ass along the way. Everything is happily ever after.

[phongn]

And yes, you really do kick unholy amounts of ass in that game. I lost count of how many Vaygr capital ships I took down.

Much of the time in the game the key is to scout early and often, hitting the enemy fast and not letting them have time to build up. I had a full group of pulsars and normal gunships that roamed the map searching for resourcing groups.

[Beowulf]

And yes, you really do kick unholy amounts of ass in that game. I lost count of how many Vaygr capital ships I took down.

Much of the time in the game the key is to scout early and often, hitting the enemy fast and not letting them have time to build up. I had a full group of pulsars and normal gunships that roamed the map searching for resourcing groups.

One strategy in one level is let the Vaygr come to you, however. Eventually everything they have will have been thrown at you, including Makaan's flagship. Unfortunately for them, it's thrown at you peicemeal, which means you can defeat them in detail. It's one of the few levels that this a good idea though...

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I never played Homeworld 2, but I remember that monster fleet I built up in Homeworld on that level where there were so many ion beam frigates in sphere formation guarding...something...forgot what. I just kept luring them away from the formations with scouts and salvaged an assload of them. Took forever, but after that I had a massive ass-kicking ion beam frigate fleet.

[White Haven]

Happy endings get old. Real old. Especially when achieved by miracle Deus Ex Machina. Ooh, Hiigara has teh l33t warship, all are owned! What Homeworld 2 needed was a sudden unfolding of a strategic-level battlemap of the galaxy when you took control of the Hiigaran Navy, that would have rocked, and allowed you to actually win a /war/, not spend the whole game on a glorified Final Fantasy fetch-and-carry quest. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game, but that 'ooh, cores are maaaagic!' bit kinda twitched me.

[Alyeska]

That's the end of the game? No victory? That sucks. How did the original Homeworld 2 end?

This sets up Homeworld for a future game where you return to take vegence.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hmmm.

Could be interesting. Lets see if we can work up plotline.

Mission One. The Hand that Moves.

You take command of the new Cal’Shto class Carrier, the Cal’Shto. Lead ship of her class and core of a fast, light but formidable taskforce, you are sent out to investigate the disturbing fragments of reports from the outer rim....

Mission Two. Invasion.

The Cal'Shto and the tattered remains of her taskforce make a fighting retreat towards the local Taidani Fleet station to sound the alarm, pursued by the invaders who must destroy her to keep their secret....

Mission Three. Echoes of the Past

After the destruction of Taidani Base 2219-B, the Cal'Shto now arrives at the Kharack system. Ancient Kushan outposts on one of the far planets provide the necessary materials and technology to repair her Hyperdrive’s for long range jumps. But while the ghosts of the past watch on, the terror of the present is not far behind....

Mission Four. High Noon.

Cal’Shto with the remains of Captain Sobans fleet that came to her rescue at Kharack have a way to get to Higara fast. The problem is that it is the last of the Imperial Taidani strongholds is right next-door to it and they have their own plans for this system....

Mission Five. Angel Moon.

Her slip point jump successful, the Cal'Shto has arrived home to sound the alarm. Shock at how easily the Vaygr were able to route the (admittedly tattered) remanets of the Imperial Fleet turn to fear when reports start to flood in of a Galaxy wide attack against all the major powers. Refugees and disorganised military forces are pouring into the Higaran system for saftey and reassignment, but not all is as it appears....

Mission Six. The Destroyers

With the luck of the capture of the Vaygr scouting commanders in the Homeworld system, information leads alliance intelligence to believe that a deep strike into several core staging and supply grounds will disrupt the logistics train of the 'swarming' Vaygr enough to allow the Allies to catch their breath and get on the offensive.....

Mission Seven. The Avengers

The unexpected information gained from the Vaygr command centre boarded by Captain Sobans Marines leads the Cal’Shto and her battlegroup deeper into Vaygr controlled space. Their target? The warlord leader of the Vaygr, Makan......

Mission Eight. Turn of the Tide

Despite the failure to kill Makan, the respite brought by the combined forces of the Cal’Shto and Kunn-Lan's attack on the Vaygr Elite Guard gives the Higarans time to see what they have known for some time.
You can not defeat the storm. Only escape it......

Mission Nine. The Beast-Slayers

"If anything can be said to define the Somtaw, it is that in the times where there is no hope, when the gates of hell open and pure evil rushes forth to rend reality...they will be first in line to stand in its way"
-Kith Manan Admiral, GY 3220.

In order to buy the time to complete Operation Exodus and possibly even help eventually turn the tide, the Bentausi deploy the Cal’Shto and Kunn-Lan into a suicide attack on the gateway the Vagyr exploited to enter our Galaxy.....

Mission Ten. Furry of the Swarm

Despite the destruction of the Vagyrs only entrance point to our Galaxy without a hyperspace core, they show no signs of slowing down in their offensive. Desperately striking out at key targets as they fight back to their Homeworld, have the Higarans bit off more then they can chew?.....

Mission Eleven. Line in the Sand.

The Higaran republic has been abandoned. The Taidani republic has all but fallen. The Turanic Raiders even have been exterminated. The Bentusi despite their still superior technology are simply too few and are being whittled down and swept aside. The final strategic location before the Higaran system is the Galactic Core system JJ-149. The Taidani have set up a network of Hyperspace inhibitors around Higara to prevent attack. The weak link in the network is JJ-149. A large battle station protecting the weak link in the inhibitor network. It is also the only hope for the millions of people in convoys of transports desperately trying to reach Higara. If it is not held for at least one day (I.E. one hour gametime), all is lost.

Mission Twelve. Higara.

Higara is being evacuated. Massive transports are moving the necessary supplies and personnel to the waiting Exodus Fleet and the remains of the Higaran, Taidani and Bentusi populations. The planet must be protected from bombardment and screened from attack until all transports are away.

Mission Thirteen. Their Finest Hour.

At the Tannis Shipyard, the massive Exodus fleet is ready. The Pride of Higara, the harbour ship of Bentus and the Taidan Flagship "Republic" sit with tens of thousands of colony transports packed with billions of people. Their three hyperspace cores will link together and send the armada into saftey, to rebuild and return one day. They will be away in forty minutes. The Vagyr still are not entirely sure what is going on and must be distracted from attacking for this long, else they would surely bring all force to bear and doom our people. The Cal’Shto, Wraith of Kharack and a smattering of forces will lead an attack on what appears to be Makans flagship, to divert all Vayger attention and resources away from the hurried preparations....


Cutsceen, the End

The fleet is away. The smoking hulls of the diversion force dragged along, leaving their worlds, home and possibly many of their people behind. But they will be back. The Vaygr are stuck here, they have taken terrific loses.........













.......and during the final battle, one of the Taidani science ships was destroyed, sending an ultra secure science container into space. Curious, the Vaygr bring it on board and eventually are able to open it...to find only what appears to be a small amount of red pulsing biomatter......
*Ok that last would be rather unfair to EVERYONE, but it would be amusing to watch *

[Alyeska]

That could definately work.

BTW, I was thinking the Cal'Shto is maybe an armed carrier, but still a carrier. Can't build anything larger then frigates.

[Alyeska]

Cal’Shto class Strike Carrier.

The Cal’Shto class is larger then your normal carrier type, but she is very much faster and far more capable. The Cal’Shto class is approximately 50% larger then the Battle Cruiser. Of course the Cal’Shto is also very expensive. The Cal’Shto class is designed to lead attacks on enemy installations and formations. She is the center of the fleet. The Cal’Shto class is designed to rearm and build strike craft as well as frigates. She is also heavily armed for her size.

Weapons:

4 Kinetic Turrets (same as the destroyer), 2 topside, 2 bottomside
1 Long range Ion Canon (forward)
8 anti-fighter guns (same as the Gunship)

The Kinetic turrets are placed in a staggered formation top and bottom to allow the Cal’Shto to bring all weapons to bare at almost every vector of attack on the forward/side/rear arcs. The Cal’Shto is more vulnerable on her top and bottom arcs because only 2 Kinetic turrets cover. The Long Range Ion Cannon has a wide range of fire, but if an enemy gets top or bottom and towards the back of the ship, the main gun can not fire. The Cal’Shto is designed to take enemy forces head on and then pass by letting the Kinetic Turrets continue to strike the enemies.

Strike capacity:

30 fighter wings
16 corvette wings
4 transport wings
10 resourcers

With such a heavy strike capacity the Cal’Shto can launch numerous fighters, bombers, and corvettes to attack their enemies. She can easily overwhelm enemy fleets with her fighters and bombers.

Frigate capacity:

The Cal’Shto is desperately trying to pack a lot of firepower into a rather cramped frame. The weaponry she carries takes up a fairly large amount of space as does the carrier operations. The frigate aspect actually takes place as a folding out scaffolding on both the port and starboard side of the ship. This allows the Cal’Shto to work on Frigates while maintaining a smaller overall shape in general operations.

Wrath of Kharak class Battleship

The Wrath of Kharak is aptly named. The vegence the Higarans took on the Imperialists is matched only by the raw firepower of the Wrath of Kharak. This ship is designed to take on and utterely annihilate enemy ships, fleets even. Armed with two Siege Cannons there is very little that can slow down the Wrath of Kharak.

Weapons:

2 Siege Cannons (forward firing, one port, one starboard)
12 Long Range Ion Cannons (2 forward, 4 top, 4 bottom, 2 aft)
20 Kinetic Turrets
20 anti-fighter turrets

With the Siege Cannons the Wrath of Kharak can easily devastate enemy formations. The long range fire and heavy area affect damage typically outright destroys anything cruiser level or lower. What does survive must face a blistering array of weaponry. The Long Range Ion Cannons are again staggered both top and bottom allowing the Wrath of Kharak heavy forward firepower. Even then she is so heavily armed that an attack at any vector is suicide. Also armed with 20 Kinetic Turrets she can easily weather a storm of frigates and annihilate them. The 20 anti-fighter turrets also make anything less then a 2 standard carrier strike pattern suicide.

Strike Capacity:

Support 10 fighter wings
4 Corvette wings

The Wrath of Kharak can not build her own strike craft, but she can hold them or repair them. This lets the Wrath of Kharak deploy fighters in defense and maintain them.

[Antares]

It's interesting to read comment about HW in this board, since i was a homeworld player from the release of HW and one of the best MP players in HW:C and HW2 (till i retired ^^).

The story seems interesing, but i don't think the it' so much better than the original HW2 story. You are mixing a lot of stuff from HW:C into your story and that was something which Relic tried to avoid. Sure, they said HW:C is canon for the HW universe, but otherwise they didn't mention it.

It turns out the Nagarok from the Beast Wars was a surviving ship trying to run from the Vagyr.

I doubt that the beast nagarok is frunning from the vaygr. Did you play HW:C last mission? The nagarok is the most kick-ass enemy in the hole HW series.

The Bentusi just can’t be everywhere at once and their ships are slowly being worn away.

After the beast infection spreaded the Bentusi left the gqalaxy. Only the Habour ship remained., So "their ships" cannot be correct if the story playes after defeating the beast.

Thus the last mission you propose couldnt include any normal Bentusi ships.


I personally really liked the Hw2 story and missions. Most people complained about the difficulty but except for mission 12 i didnt have to restart a mission in my first run on the campaign.

Now to the ships you propose Alyeska. It's always cool to design ships, but if included in multiplayer they can really mess up the game balance.

The Cal’Shto like you propose it would break the main rule HW always had, the rock-paper-scissors tactics, if it is included in MP. Because it's one of the main ships of your campaign it seems logic, that is would be included in the campaign.

HW:C already had much too powerfull motherships. For instance on certain maps i managed to kill many opponents within 6-7min just with my mothership.

Typical capital ship weapons always had a range from 4000-8000m in HW. In HW2 maximum range for weapons was even only 6000m, thus a "long range ion cannon" would have much more than typical kinetic turrets.

Just have a look at my site i did long ago (and which is still one of the main reference for HW2 ships on the net)
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units.php

and especially these two:
Hiiigaran bttlesip:
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units. ... &ship=4924
Hiigaran destroyer:
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units. ... &ship=4921

All weapons have the same range and ONLY high-end supercaps got more than 2 weapon systems. Of course it would be logical to mount the weapons you suggest, like Ion cannons, Kinetic turrets and point defense turrets. But this was never done with production capable ships (except for the turanic raider battlecarrier). Already the Somtaaw mothership in HW:C was breaking this rule with its siege cannon.

Perhaps it is an option to build all those imporved weapon systems like main kinetic guns and ion turret as modules like the siege in HW:C but otherwise it would be unplayable in MP.

With all the point defense of the Cal'Shto, fighter rushes wouldn't be possible.

Even with the need of building them, the typical n00b siege run in HW:C would get a revival

Now let's switch to the compaign itself. With such a powerfull mothership/carrier escorts would no longer be needed and thus an important strategic part for single player is lost. A carrier that can deal with a bunch of frigates or even a single destoryer itself, is just plain boring.

The main advantage of carriers in HW always was their production capability and that they were able to dock/transport ships. This is already powerfull enough.

At the relicnews boards there were millons of ship suggestions like that but they were all impossible to balance.

Excuse me for just seeing this issue from the MP/balancing side.

Final note:
Siege cannons suck ! I loved those games where somebody prepared to fire it's siege and i had a Defense Field Frigate (DFF) close to it's MS or just hypering in.

[Alyeska]

It's interesting to read comment about HW in this board, since i was a homeworld player from the release of HW and one of the best MP players in HW:C and HW2 (till i retired ^^).

The story seems interesing, but i don't think the it' so much better than the original HW2 story. You are mixing a lot of stuff from HW:C into your story and that was something which Relic tried to avoid. Sure, they said HW:C is canon for the HW universe, but otherwise they didn't mention it.

The story is a hell of a lot better then the HW2 story. In that your thrown in with no information about an enemy everyone seems to know about yet you haven't a fucking clue. Part of it was the complete lack of a manual with any real information. Part of it was the fact they had to effectively create a new enemy. Well they created a new enemy without providing real information behind them. Furthermore they wrote off a shitload of information regarding the stuff from the original Homeworld and Cataclysm.

I doubt that the beast nagarok is frunning from the vaygr. Did you play HW:C last mission? The nagarok is the most kick-ass enemy in the hole HW series.

You misunderstand. I am saying that the Nagarok was more then an expiditionary ship from another galaxy, it was a survivor fleeing the Vagyr. Sure it kicked ass, yet we still killed it. The Beast just happened to infect it.

After the beast infection spreaded the Bentusi left the gqalaxy. Only the Habour ship remained., So "their ships" cannot be correct if the story playes after defeating the beast.

Four Bentusi trade ships survived bare minimum. Reference the mission you destroy their gate. I suspect more survived and just didn't reach the gate in time.

Thus the last mission you propose couldnt include any normal Bentusi ships.

See above.

I personally really liked the Hw2 story and missions. Most people complained about the difficulty but except for mission 12 i didnt have to restart a mission in my first run on the campaign.

What bloody story? Your thrown into something that EVERYONE in game knows about but you. Given very little information. An enemy was made up and past people and events outright ignored. The missions were fairly good, but the story was craptacular.

Now to the ships you propose Alyeska. It's always cool to design ships, but if included in multiplayer they can really mess up the game balance.

Who says they would be in multiplayer? Remember, this isn't normal Homeworld here.

The Cal’Shto like you propose it would break the main rule HW always had, the rock-paper-scissors tactics, if it is included in MP. Because it's one of the main ships of your campaign it seems logic, that is would be included in the campaign.

The Cal'Shto is designed as a mothership that can do some things but also defend itself. It only breaks MP ballance and THAT could be adressed differently if it came down to it.

HW:C already had much too powerfull motherships. For instance on certain maps i managed to kill many opponents within 6-7min just with my mothership.

Only in the Multiplayer area were they too powerful. Cataclysm had ships with much more logical firepower.

Typical capital ship weapons always had a range from 4000-8000m in HW. In HW2 maximum range for weapons was even only 6000m, thus a "long range ion cannon" would have much more than typical kinetic turrets.

The Battlecruiser had the Long Range Ion Cannon. Didn't you notice how much it massively outranged frigates?

Just have a look at my site i did long ago (and which is still one of the main reference for HW2 ships on the net)
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units.php

and especially these two:
Hiiigaran bttlesip:
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units. ... &ship=4924
Hiigaran destroyer:
http://www.silentthunder.de/SITH/units. ... &ship=4921

All weapons have the same range and ONLY high-end supercaps got more than 2 weapon systems. Of course it would be logical to mount the weapons you suggest, like Ion cannons, Kinetic turrets and point defense turrets. But this was never done with production capable ships (except for the turanic raider battlecarrier). Already the Somtaaw mothership in HW:C was breaking this rule with its siege cannon.

The Cal'Shto and Wrath of Kharak are not intended as buildable ships. They are both so large that it requires special immobile shipyards to build them. They would not be part of the HW2 singleplayer aspect. Singleplayer would still be bassed on the classic setting with a traditional mothership. Of course non-ballanced games could be run using the larger and more interesting ships as part of it. That lets people experiment with Bentusi ships as well as other interesting ships.

Perhaps it is an option to build all those imporved weapon systems like main kinetic guns and ion turret as modules like the siege in HW:C but otherwise it would be unplayable in MP.

With all the point defense of the Cal'Shto, fighter rushes wouldn't be possible.

Even with the need of building them, the typical n00b siege run in HW:C would get a revival

MP would not be the same as SP.

Now let's switch to the compaign itself. With such a powerfull mothership/carrier escorts would no longer be needed and thus an important strategic part for single player is lost. A carrier that can deal with a bunch of frigates or even a single destoryer itself, is just plain boring.

Actualy the missions I had in mind would have the Cal'Shto's long range ion cannon knocked out in the very first mission and not repaired for quite some time. Your also going to be so resource short that your going to be running alot. The Cal'Shto has to be heavily armed because its going to get SWAMPED by the enemy.

The main advantage of carriers in HW always was their production capability and that they were able to dock/transport ships. This is already powerfull enough.

At the relicnews boards there were millons of ship suggestions like that but they were all impossible to balance.

Excuse me for just seeing this issue from the MP/balancing side.

And I don't care about MP. Balancing with the suggestions I made for single player can easily be done. Some of it has to do with the Cal'Shto being damaged and not able to take advantage of every system it has.

Final note:
Siege cannons suck ! I loved those games where somebody prepared to fire it's siege and i had a Defense Field Frigate (DFF) close to it's MS or just hypering in.

Siege Cannons only suck when the person firing them wasn't being careful.

[Antares]

Ok this sounds just like a normal mod idea then. What about posting this at http://forums.relicnews.com (might be down at the moment), for getting better comments?

Relicnews is the place where the HW pro's reside.

They should evaluate if such a statement is right:

The story is a hell of a lot better then the HW2 story.

But still, if you dont care about MP, then such an idea is problematic. If there are lots of cool ships in SP but they cannot be used in MP (even skirmish) then a lot of fun is lost

Since youe idea is a SP one i stop complaining about balancing now.

I have to confess, my concentration was MP, that's why i *could* only help with balancing and stats stuff.

The Battlecruiser had the Long Range Ion Cannon. Didn't you notice how much it massively outranged frigates?

Lol, i was the main stats number cruncher of the hole HW community. Even after several month i still know most of the ships' stats.

The hig battlecuisers cannons (ion+kinetic) has a range of 6000 while the ion cannon frigate has 4000 and the torpedo frigate has a range of 4500

Thus the range advantage wasnt the big deal.... more the firepower one.

Siege Cannons only suck when the person firing them wasn't being careful.

Siege cannons sucked ! I know because i never saw them when fighting the best players in HW:C. A siege run takes a minimum time of 990 sec
(150+600+240) with no resourcing lags. Till then most games are already over.

[Alyeska]

Lol, i was the main stats number cruncher of the hole HW community. Even after several month i still know most of the ships' stats.

The hig battlecuisers cannons (ion+kinetic) has a range of 6000 while the ion cannon frigate has 4000 and the torpedo frigate has a range of 4500

Thus the range advantage wasnt the big deal.... more the firepower one.

Well that was the intent. Its got long enough range that it can get important volleys in first.

[Antares]

Lol, i was the main stats number cruncher of the hole HW community. Even after several month i still know most of the ships' stats.

The hig battlecuisers cannons (ion+kinetic) has a range of 6000 while the ion cannon frigate has 4000 and the torpedo frigate has a range of 4500

Thus the range advantage wasnt the big deal.... more the firepower one.

Well that was the intent. Its got long enough range that it can get important volleys in first.

The volley is one frigate at best two for free when attacking by dumb manoevers. Vaygr battlehips are even worse cause of their long tracking for their trinity and the low speed of their fusion missiles.

BTW:
A fixed forward ion cannon would only be sufficent for computer enemies that arent moving their ships around. A ship the size of your carrier could only track down ships of its own size and larger. Thus destroyers are already immue to it when manoevering. (Assuming destroyer < your carrier)

[White Haven]

Meh. Siege /does/ suck. Was the worst part of Cataclysm, hands down. Well, that and Super Acolytes. As an aside, though, the Bentusi didn't leave completely, quite a number of them stayed behind...and tried to kill me, of course, but that's just icing on the cake. HW-style ship designs have always pissed me off in that aspect because they make no sense from an ENGINEERING standpoint. PD guns are /small/ relative to massive anti-capital railguns, it doesn't require a great deal of thought to add point-defense emplacements, SSM launch batteries, and suchlike to a ship the size of a cruiser or battlecruiser. Even a destroyer could mount far more credible antifighter weaponry than it does with little tradeoff, and given how staggeringly vulnerable they are to fighters, torpedos, missiles, etc, it's sheer folly not to from an engineering standpoint. Rock Paper Scissors is all well and good, but do it /intelligently/. You want bombers to be a threat to battlecruisers? Design the BCs intelligently, then design the BOMBERS to penetrate that with decoys, ECM, actual evasive flight patters instead of straight lines, etcetera.

[Antares]

HW-style ship designs have always pissed me off in that aspect because they make no sense from an ENGINEERING standpoint. PD guns are /small/ relative to massive anti-capital railguns, it doesn't require a great deal of thought to add point-defense emplacements, SSM launch batteries, and suchlike to a ship the size of a cruiser or battlecruiser. Even a destroyer could mount far more credible antifighter weaponry than it does with little tradeoff, and given how staggeringly vulnerable they are to fighters, torpedos, missiles, etc, it's sheer folly not to from an engineering standpoint.

Cap ships without anti fighter capabilites was one of the main reason why HW was such a great game. Realistic cap ships would ruin the game because they become the only choice in normal games and would replace any low tech unit cause of their durability.

Unrealistic cap ships forced you to use more intelligent strategies and tactics and not just a "go for the largest ship as fast as possible".

In HW:C the Arcangel was already much to flexible with its homing energy guns and repulsor tech. Same goes for the beast battelcruiser with its infect every 120 sec, which can be a very effective anti fighter weapon.

Rock Paper Scissors is all well and good, but do it /intelligently/. You want bombers to be a threat to battlecruisers? Design the BCs intelligently, then design the BOMBERS to penetrate that with decoys, ECM, actual evasive flight patters instead of straight lines, etcetera.

Yeah.. very typical complaint. Have you wasted any thoughts on how to implement such things into a game that should still allow a human to play it? More features mean possible more parameters to handle by a human (even in SP), more AI programming and defenitly more CPU power.

When HW was relased a typical computer had 500 MhZ and 128 MB RAM. In those days my computer already had trouble to handle a full fleet in SP and some small fleets in MP.


Calling for more realistic games is stupid. Nobody would play a "realistic" scifi game... Everybody is playing such games because they are *unrealstic*

When somebody starts to complain about realism there's no end. What realistic about ion/kinetic cannons with a range of 6000m at most and bomber weapons with 1000-2000m? What about ships moving backwards without engines to the front? (possible for MS in HW:C) What about a bomber squad costing 550 RU and a Battleship only 4000 RU. IF considering the size of a battleship it should cost 4.000.000.000.000.

It's pointless to talk about realism. Each and everybody would asks for something else to change. The result would be a unplayable and not implementable game.

[Antares]

Alyeska,

if you dont want to create an account at relicnews, then i will post this topic for you and link to it here

[phongn]

HW2:PDS attempts to implement electronic warfare (in a transparent manner), actually.

The Hiigara carrier in the 4.9N revision of PDS has two DD guns, several non-trainable medium-range 'box' missile launchers, several frigate guns and an improved CIWS grid. You can also place a platform ion cannon emplacement where the sensor hardpoint is. Firing arc sucks but it is a useful gun.

The corvette facility hardpoint was replaced by a basic research facility; you could still build frigates and fighters. The ion cannon would also prevent you from building a fire-control tower.

EDIT:

The carrier has:

16 PD guns (8 Type 1, 4 Type 2, 4 Type 3)
3 Medium Range Attack Missile box launchers
2 Destroyer-type twin railguns
1 Destroyer-scale twin plasma gun
3 Frigate-scale autocannon

Sensor Hardpoint [Optional]:
1 platform-scale ion cannon

Hardpoint 2 [Optional]:
1 Twin Submunition launcher (anti-fighter) or
1 Twin Torpedo Launcher (anti-capship) or
1 Twin DD-scale railgun (anti-ship)

Also has improved C3I systems compared to the stock carrier; might be useful as the carrier flagship in your proposed SP campaign.

[White Haven]

On a side note, I'd love to see a ship similar to the HSN destroyer but without the torpedos to ruin the style. Instead, simply enough heavy turretting railguns to go broadside to something and rip it a new asshole. *purrrrs*

[Chris OFarrell]

It's interesting to read comment about HW in this board, since i was a homeworld player from the release of HW and one of the best MP players in HW:C and HW2 (till i retired ^^).

The story seems interesing, but i don't think the it' so much better than the original HW2 story. You are mixing a lot of stuff from HW:C into your story and that was something which Relic tried to avoid. Sure, they said HW:C is canon for the HW universe, but otherwise they didn't mention it.

Which is what I hated most about HW2. The complete lack of refrences to ANYTHING in HWC was stupid and childish. Just because it didn't fawn all over frigen Karren S'Jet non stop. Most people liked Cat, appart from a small minority of insane purists on Relics forums. The complete discomendation of it in HW2 made no sense and was simply stupid.

Hell, the ONLY refrence to Cat in HW2 is a one sentance throw away line in a part of the manual talking about the debate to activate the Hyperspace Core.

And I did NOT like much of the rewriting of the history for the Hyperspace Core BS.

[White Haven]

Well, Cata had....issues. I mean, if we want to be picky, the Hiigaran possession of the Super Acolyte design makes any credible threat that isn't the direct return of Sajuuk in fleet strength...sort of instantly dead. Insta-hit guided energy cannons...er...no. The Siege Cannon...no. The repulsor field...no. Cata had a lot of good things as well, don't get me wrong, but Barking Dog was way off-target in several areas. I mean, if Cata were accepted as canon, the Vaygr would have appeared..and been blown to shit in a storm of golden ion beams from that interceptor patrol in the first mission, among other things.

EDIT: And given Hiigaran ability to reverse-engineer technologies, you can extend that technology to the possession of an ion beam roughly...call it a quarter the size of an intercept fighter, with a power supply of similar diminutive scale capable of firing the beam essentially indefinitely, at least in any sort of combat engagement timeframe. Now refit that technology into paired turret mounts on a heavy cruiser. A couple dozen of them. Then add a century for the technology to mature and be further exploited. Or what happened to the multibeam frigate design concept, which would be tailor-made for battlecruiser anti-bomber escort frigates, hence making already-durable ships nearly invincible with that as a screen. Cataclysm, if accepted as canon in the HW2 dev process, would wreck so very, very much...

[Antares]

Well, Cata had....issues. I mean, if we want to be picky, the Hiigaran possession of the Super Acolyte design makes any credible threat that isn't the direct return of Sajuuk in fleet strength...sort of instantly dead. Insta-hit guided energy cannons...er...no. The Siege Cannon...no. The repulsor field...no. Cata had a lot of good things as well, don't get me wrong, but Barking Dog was way off-target in several areas. I mean, if Cata were accepted as canon, the Vaygr would have appeared..and been blown to shit in a storm of golden ion beams from that interceptor patrol in the first mission, among other things.

White Haven is right here. While HW:C ships had homeing energy guns the ships in HW2 are back to kinetic guns only just to mention another example.

Homing direct fire weapons was one of the worst ideas i've ever seen in scifi games. Thus it was NOT childish in any way to exclude HW:C from the game development.

So please think about calling this decision stupid Chris OFarrell. Like White Haven said HW2 would have been a mess with HW:C weapons and other gained technology.

The carrier has:

16 PD guns (8 Type 1, 4 Type 2, 4 Type 3)
3 Medium Range Attack Missile box launchers
2 Destroyer-type twin railguns
1 Destroyer-scale twin plasma gun
3 Frigate-scale autocannon

Sensor Hardpoint [Optional]:
1 platform-scale ion cannon

Hardpoint 2 [Optional]:
1 Twin Submunition launcher (anti-fighter) or
1 Twin Torpedo Launcher (anti-capship) or
1 Twin DD-scale railgun (anti-ship)

Total übership and thus completely non-HW style.
Why increasing the weapon load to something like this :

It only got:
18 Twin kinetic point defense turrets
10 Heavy kinetic turrets
6 Light twin ion cannons
4 Heavy ion cannons
30 30x4m Fusion missiles
16 Fusion bomb launcher for planetary bombardment
12 Cluster bomb launcher for planetary bombardment
1 Drone bay
4 Fighter bays
1 Hanger for frigate sized ships


I am just interested...are you already working on a mod or it this only an idea? Anyway your work for HW2 is much appreciated

Just get it to the HW2 community at forums.relicnews.com

[phongn]

The Higgy carrier in HW2:PDS isn't actually that uber. It can defend itself against a frigate raid and run from fighter raid, but against a stand-up attack the thing is toast. That's also the Sobani special-forces carrier; the normal one isn't quite as strong (it deleted the plasma gun, for example, and Hardpoint 2's weapons options).

The game mechanics of HW2:PDS are quite a bit different than the normal game. For example, in M2 your interceptors can hack down bombers like there's no tomorrow, but in PDS it takes a lot more work since bombers are now heavily armored and interceptors have less firepower. OTOH, capships have even thicker armor to balance things out, plus their much-improved CIWS.