On Rome's units

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-23 08:23pm

Some might remember I expressed my surprise that the Seleucid Greeks were provided with "Silver Shield" Legionaries of the circa-100AD style typically seen in films, with "lorica segmentata" armor etc.

I then read this tidbit in one of my books, regarding the army of the Mithridates of Pontus, an implacable enemy of Rome in the time of Marius, Sulla, Lucullus etc (80-70BC ish)

Mithridates, learning perhaps equally from his own past experience and from Sertorious' military mission, had remodelled his army and navy. It is true his large Oriental host still included such lumber as scythe-wheel chariots, which were usually ineffective because they needed an excessively long run in order to gather impetus. He had, nevertheless, equipped his infantry with short sowrds and long shields on the Roman pattern, and had adopted Roman tactical formations.

Hell, if Pontus can do it, a hypothetical Seleucid Empire certainly can.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2004-11-28 01:58pm

That still doesn't explain how they got the same stats.....
especially how they manage to throw the pilum and why they can form testudo...

fgalkin, does your book cite a source? I don't know much of that period, I must admit.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-28 07:32pm

fgalkin?

Anyway, no source is cited, but its from Warfare in the Ancient (Classical? I'm not home, so I can't check the title) World by John Warry, a pretty well known book (its illustrated reconstructions of various ancient soldiers are all over the internet) which was probably a primary source for the game. It's unfortunate that Pontus itself doesn't have imitation legionaries, but oh well.

If Pontus equipped infantry with short swords/ long sheilds like legionaries and adopted their tactical formations, being equipped with pila and being able to form the tortoise isn't that far out of the realm of possibility. Of course, the stats shouldn't be the same and lorica segmentata armor didn't appear until AD 75-100 in real life ...

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-28 10:59pm

Vympel wrote:<snip> ...lorica segmentata armor didn't appear until AD 75-100 in real life ...

According to Connelly's Greece and Rome at War, waistband hooks for segmentata have been found dating to the first half of the first century, around the same time as the scutum had its top and bottom trimmed so it had rounded sides and a square top and bottom.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2004-11-29 04:51am

Vympel wrote: fgalkin?

Sorry, got mixed up.

Alright, since I don't have the book, I can't really judge on them.

@ The Dark:

An attempt to make it the primary roman armor was made under Claudius. Maybe that is what he says.

Still, the typical roman legionary in the time period of rome didn't have the segmentata.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-29 05:25am

The Dark wrote:According to Connelly's Greece and Rome at War, waistband hooks for segmentata have been found dating to the first half of the first century, around the same time as the scutum had its top and bottom trimmed so it had rounded sides and a square top and bottom.

Funny discrepancy, I just checked it, and Warfare in the Classical World definitely says lorica segmentata was in use from c 75-80AD and remained in use until the 3rd century or later. It was first published in 1980, though (at least, that's my copy)- so it's quite possible they found examples dating from earlier since then- unless Greece and Rome at War is older than that, which I doubt.

Running a google, other types of Roman segmented armor have been found dating from the first century BC, but these are not the "classic" segmentata as we know it. Some types were found in the infamous Teutoberg Forest, for example.

Which reminds me, wouldn't it be awesome if you were to find the lost legionary standards that Germanicus failed to get back (as I recall, he brought two back when he went to punish the Germans for the loss of Varus' legions ...)

Armored Goldbar · Post by **Armored Goldbar** » 2004-11-29 10:32am

Vympel wrote:Which reminds me, wouldn't it be awesome if you were to find the lost legionary standards that Germanicus failed to get back (as I recall, he brought two back when he went to punish the Germans for the loss of Varus' legions ...)

You just posted the wet dream of every classical archaeologist I know.

Realistically though...those aquilae are gone. The Germans probably didn't just leave them in the forest...espicially if they understood what they were.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-11-29 05:23pm

Vympel wrote:
The Dark wrote:According to Connelly's Greece and Rome at War, waistband hooks for segmentata have been found dating to the first half of the first century, around the same time as the scutum had its top and bottom trimmed so it had rounded sides and a square top and bottom.
Funny discrepancy, I just checked it, and Warfare in the Classical World definitely says lorica segmentata was in use from c 75-80AD and remained in use until the 3rd century or later. It was first published in 1980, though (at least, that's my copy)- so it's quite possible they found examples dating from earlier since then- unless Greece and Rome at War is older than that, which I doubt.

Greece and Rome is from 1981. Reading from different parts of the book (he takes it chronologically), the first complete segmentata found was at Corbridge. A variant form has been found at Newstead. Both date to late 1st century, and "fragments are being found on many earlier sites...in contexts that can only be dated to the first half of the 1st century." The use of present text suggests that this was in digs occurring at the time of writing, so it may not have been known/dated when Warfare was written (which is a book I enjoyed). The last appearance of the segmentata is on the Arch of Septimus Severus in the mid-second century, and it appears to have been replaced by mail, which was quicker and easier to put on, though harder to make.