StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Now, I'm putting together a business/market research paper for a proposed P&P Game company that I'd like to start with a New Enterprise Incentive Scheme grant...

I was wondering - what game settings people liked, what game systems (D20, Gurps, UniSystem or an original system), if people would be more or less likely to purchase a licensed game, etc etc etc.

What I'm really after is a quick rundown of your playing tastes in P&P.

And also any other non-corporate forums where I could post a product survey...

I've done several variations on D20, most notably D&D and Spycraft. A solid enough system but it has it's problems in abstracting life into mechanics. The stand up and take it aspect of combat in particular as well as the requirement of feats for so many seeming reasonable abilities. That and the general rigidity of classes and feats in general.

Don't get me wrong, I really like D20. Spycraft in particular has a lot of D20s strong points and side steps many of it's faults. And D&D was what I orginally was brought into gaming with. Both are good and enjoyable with the right group.

That said, the gaming group has been doing a Ratchet and Clank based game using Jade/Ironclaw and the active defense system and lack of classes and the reduced nature of feats make it a more exciting and I dare say more flexible system. I dare say the best overall system I've played.


And other thing I want to say that overall applies to any system but is an especial D&D issue. DON'T MAKE IT SO THE ADDITIONS OVERPOWER THE BASIC GAME! The one thing I really detest about D&D as a gaming product is that the guy that owns all the books and has the rule memorized has a huge leg and unfair leg up on everyone else. Our gaming group has a couple of them, half decent, half dicks. The decent guys help out, helping produce better and more fun characters and generally helping you get the most. The dicks use it to outdo every one, obscenely abuse arcane rules and setups, and generally use it to wave the biggest cock and overshadow and diminish the rest of the group.

That sort of mentality sucks, and it's personal flaw in some players, but D&D has made it far, far too easy and encouraged it. With additions and alternate settings and obscure source books that must be in the hundreds, D&D has encouraged a mentality that's too much about building powerful characters at all cost. Certainly the profusion of source books (some merely re-compilations of material from other source books) does nothing to discourage the mentality that bigger is better.

Compare that to Spycraft, it has a goodly number of add-ons. But compared to D&D the addons are modest and while they have the usual new prestige classes and feats but they don't have the game altering, power hungry sort of thing that D&D's sourcebooks have. They truly are supplemants. They are neither essential to the game nor does not having access to them leave one at the same disadvantage as it would in D&D. It's hard to convey it but the tone and intent behind them seem worlds away from some of D&D.

And of course lets not even get into the financial rape that such sourcebooks can be. The other problem I have with them becoming in so many ways essential.

Fucking excellent - thank you. This is just the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

Game Systems - I'm a big fan of D20/D&D too, and I agree with Stormbringer in virtually every respect. It's got its flaws, particularly with non-fantasy settings, but I think it's a lot more solid than many make it out to be.

That said, I'd like to see a D20-related system that caters to non-fantasy games and settings, with a more robust combat system and getting rid of classes in favor of a more skills-based system, but without straying too far from D&D fundamentals like the d20 being the ubiquitous die, with smaller dice used for specific instances (like damage), etc.

Game Settings - Planescape! Now any cutter worth his salt knows the dark on this, as a campaign setting it's a deader, now lumped rather generically into core D&D campaigns with less emphasis on the Cage itself (go figure, barmy sods at WotC). It's hard to find a fantasy setting that can compete with Planescape in terms of openness, flexibility, humor, and just plain fun.

Forgotten Realms. Many hate it, I don't know why. Nothing really wrong with it. It's a nice "generic" core campaign setting (as opposed to the overarching nature of Planescape) without feeling overly bland.

Warhammer 40,000. We really, really need a decent RPG. A lot of the stuff is already in place in the form of Inquisitor, just needs to be expanded on and fleshed out a bit. Few universes out there, sci-fi, fantasy or otherwise, have the ability to draw in fans like 40k. The beauty of it, despite its outward grim appearance (which I imagine scares many off), it that it's got something for everyone somewhere within it, and eventually the newcomer will grow to like at least a fair portion of the rest of the universe in time.


In closing, basically, I'd just like to see a D20-related system more appropriate for modern/sci-fi combat, more Planescape, and a damn 40k RPG!

D20 is not really a great game system. I do play it, but it is really marginal mechanically. But if you want to do D&D type fantasy, or Planescape, or Darksun, or Black Company, it is a lot easier to use it than reinvent the wheel. But if you are putting out a new game system, it should be superior to what is essentially a compromise system (overhauling D&D while not taking it too far from its roots).

I want to play a game that catches my imagination. The mechanics should be consitent, reasonably realistic, and not too hard to learn. The game should grab my imagination. Planescape is a good example of this, although this poor cutter has only limited experience with it.

JediNeophyte, Black Industries has hinted that it might have Green Ronin develop a 40K RPG.

DISCLAIMER: Keep in mind the following is only my personal opinion.

Game system: I like simple and light rule systems, diceless for preference, but to my mind the system does not matter much and light diceles systems do not sell well. I also would buy systems similar to GURPS, Silouette, Basic, HERO or WEG D6. I would buy a D20 system if the rules don't intrude much in the setting (eg. in Forgotten Realms the rules are too much intruding for me), and definetly if it was a modified D20 like Mutants and Masterminds or Blue Rose.

Game setting: I would like to see a Culture game, or at any rate a good SciFi game, be it hard scifi or space opera without the usual brainbugs (monocultural aliens, dehumanizing technological implants, etc.). Second in line a good mythological game, any kind of mythology with enfasys on predestination (eg: you know your character will die in that place but he goes anyway since it's his destiny). Does not matter much if it is licensed game or not.

Just my 2 eurocents.

I much prefer skills-based systems which let you develop a character over time than class-based systems which lock you into a certain development path.

I would love a game system where its a simple core with countless add-ons. For instance have a core set of rules for a very basic game, but then have an expansion pack/addon for space, or stone-henge etc. Thats something I would buy.

I choose my system according to type of game I want to GM.
Silhouette CORE for fast'n'furious action and simple rules. Gurps for character creation and more RL type of stuff. My own system when I feel like it.
I wouldn't touch D20 with an eleven foot pole. Some of the sourcebooks are pretty kewl, and I use those for background in SW for instance. The lowest form of RPG system I have ever encountered is WoD.

I want the system to support gaming, so the GM doesn't have to interpet the rules all the time, or make them up when there isn't any. This has to balance out with giving the players enough choice to make the character they want, without artificial restrictions. Munchkinism of course can be a problem but that's what the GM is for. I'd rather have a system that can be abused over a totally non flexible one. I can always balance it out.

I like sci-fi, modern and near future settings best, this to a little bit of adventurous fantasy/medieval gaming.

-Gunhead

JediNeophyte wrote: Warhammer 40,000. We really, really need a decent RPG. A lot of the stuff is already in place in the form of Inquisitor, just needs to be expanded on and fleshed out a bit. Few universes out there, sci-fi, fantasy or otherwise, have the ability to draw in fans like 40k. The beauty of it, despite its outward grim appearance (which I imagine scares many off), it that it's got something for everyone somewhere within it, and eventually the newcomer will grow to like at least a fair portion of the rest of the universe in time.

Is there a 40K RPG out there that doesn't require minatures? Inquisitor is good, but it still suffers from the common GW problem of being expensive.

As far as game systems are concerned, I do like the D20 system, though as stormbringer said there are problems with it that I try to address. Mostly for realism's sake.

For example: In my games, I use hitpoints as an abstract to measure injuries. But not in the same way, and you are NOT fine after losing half your hitpoints. Penalties to all checks, ability score damage and the liie, are accumulated as you lose hitpoints and are struck in certain locations. I roll for wound infection.

The need for feats to do something simple... yeah.. I never really thought anything of it, but now that I think about it is is somewhat annoying. Feats should be for things that are normally difficult, or special. SHit, I can use power attack... all it is is furiously swinging a sword blade.

Combat is just too unrealistic

Settings: Uniqueness! Forgotten Realms is getting popular because it's ditching the Tolkein stereotypes wholesale and focusing on being many, many nations with distinctive cultures and histories, which makes it have depth.

Planescape and Spelljammer were awesome because they were new, shiny, and completely unexpected. Planescape was the superior setting, but both deserve a new light(Not just in the limited form we've got for both).

And yes, WH40k would be good. So would most modern fantasy.

Okay, don't have time for a thorough read and commentary, but...

Have you checked out RPGnet?

Here

The owner of the site has done several articles on starting ones own game business, and there are plenty of articles from industry insiders who comment on the necessary elements of design and business operation that can help you out.

Also, the fora might be a good place to post your questions.

I've done D&D, Unisystem and Uni-lite (AKA Cinematic Unisystem). I've played only D&D, but ran the other two, and I find strengths and weaknesses in...mostly D&D. Uni is just so flexible, especially uni-lite. As one person put it, It's like white wolf, without the pretentious stereotypes assosiated with it.

Settings: I've done The Forgotten Realms (currently) and Greyhawk in D&D. In Uni, I've done some deadworlds (All Flesh Must Be Eaten) and a lot of the Buffy and Angel RPGs. Each has its unique flavor.

One game I own and hope to play is Call of Cthulhu. I have never gotten the chance to play it, and it interests me. But then I think that I could never take it seriously enough. For some reason, the campaigns I'm appart of tend towards the humorous. Maybe we should invest in "Toon"...

Decided to call it SPQR Studios... Putting together an initial online survey... I've always hated putting together Business strategies and plans, but they are a neccesary evil, and by geeves, this one is going to need a whole SHITLOAD of market research before it gets approved.

I've decided to go forward with a concept and begin market research/business planning for a RPG studio.

If you have a spare few minutes, please complete this survey to assist with the initial stages of research.

This survey is 100% confidential and will not track or collect your personal information.

More surveys may appear over time to develop new statistics.

Thank you very much for your help.

alright, alright...

Done Anders. Good luck with this!

Done.

Been brainstorming some ideas...

The scheme that would be backing me, on some further talks to them, would want to have the first product out the door in 3 months from the time of start-up, which makes me think that the first book might well have to be a baseline d20 expansion book or an update or sourcebook written for another system.

But for the big original "launch" game, I've been contemplating several ideas that I thought were cool (half of them pillaged from "what ifs" on SDnet):

Steampunk "Ancient" - Rome at its classical height in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution... Likely set around 1400CE, with possible expansions for stuff like an "exploration/invasion" of South/North America... Just image Roman legions with muskets, cannon and steam-powered tanks. Trains with images of Jupiter or others emblazoned on their steam engines racing across the continent...

Heroic/Epic Wild West setting likely for d20 (compatible with 3.5) - Cool setting, especially if you make it straight out of the most over-the-top spaghetti western, or make it variable in terms of how the GM wants to run it (Unforgiven or Shanghai Noon - you choose). Plus I'm not aware of any game that runs in a non-"DeadWest"-esque setting...

"Wiggas Wid Gats" - Stand alone piss take card game or even just an alternative to Macho Women With Guns... The Ghetto this ain't... You can probably guess the kind of stuff I'm thinking of here.

Like the Ancient Steam and wild west ideas; only game like either of them I've seen was Werewolf's Wyld West, which was bundled up in an existing theme and world and not able to be true to some wild west themes.

Should I repost my silly fantasy-as-sci-fi?

There are two basic styles that you can go with, style over substance, or substance over style. By substance, I mean reliance upon rules mechanics and actual working out of physics interactions to determine what happens, its the hard scif-fi of Rpgs, probably taken to the furthest extreme with Gurps(at least as far as well known games go). With style over substance, the needs of the story and the setting shape the physics, the best example that springs immediately to mind is Feng Shui. Most games go for a more middle of the road approach.

The primary thing of course, is to make it interesting enough to draw people in, and fun enough to keep them around. For interesting, a new setting works wonders, and you already seem to have that well in hand. For fun, just try to keep the system from bogging down needlessly.

Of course, I may not be the best person to get advice from, as I am an anomaly, someone who has enjoyed most games he's played, and would cheerfully dust them off again. Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Gurps, Amber, D6 SW, the old ST rpg, All editions of Dungeons and Dragons, Palladium, White Wolf, even frakking Runequest, I'll play anything.

I, of course, am still a fan of WEG's D6. Simple consistent rules, no classes, no hitpoints, no levels. Great armor and weapon system, and it doesn't need modification to change the setting (just add/remove skills and item properties, really).

My experience with D20 isn't terribly fond, but I think it serves its purpose as an easy introductory system. I don't know what Weemadando's strategy is, but personally I would think one would want to avoid competeing with D&D's niche in gameply and style, and instead market to people like me looking for alternative systems and less-conventional settings. Stay out of the shadow, so to speak.


This reminds me of the fact I've been recently fleshing out more details on one of my game designs, specifically a (non-MMO) multiplayer RPG I've currently titled 'Novia'. I decided I wanted to see if I could apply the setting to a version of D6, which will need several magic systems and an expanded system of combat skills and moves. I'll probably post it when I'm done, I may even run an adventure with it (I wish I had more artwork than just maps, though).

Utsanomiko wrote:
My experience with D20 isn't terribly fond, but I think it serves its purpose as an easy introductory system. I don't know what Weemadando's strategy is, but personally I would think one would want to avoid competeing with D&D's niche in gameply and style, and instead market to people like me looking for alternative systems and less-conventional settings. Stay out of the shadow, so to speak.

I hate d20 - I think that the monopolisation of the gaming market by a single system is a terrible idea - the same reason I hate GURPS et al.

But from a business p.o.v, having a 3 month production limit on the first title makes using the OGL d20 a great option as I don't have to worry about creating and balancing my own game mechanics and can get a product out the door very fucking quickly that will have an enormous potential purchasing base.

But ideally I'd like to use either a percentile base or WEG-esque/L5R original system threshold system ofr a real launch product.

Come up with a Unique setting, that way you have a market unto yourself. Additionally, go with D20 in the beginning as there are a lot of fans of the system but don't put down the idea of your own system. Big of the Unisystem myself and its good proof that coming up with your own dice system can actually do the company good in the long run. Aside from that, Best of Luck man, let us know when you get a product out.