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I was chatting with Chris O'Farrel over ICQ the other night, and we were both lamenting how there aren't any SW flightsims being produced. I was more or less whining about how XWA is uninspired, while the last best (and yes, also first) SW Flightsim happened to be TIE Fighter. I believe we're all in agreement about that, yes?

So then he goes away for sometime, and comes back with his idea for a campaign structure for TIE 2, a hypothetical (RAR!) game. I'm going to paraphrase his ideas with my own, see what you think:

• List things first, introduce a system in which you can enter planetary atmospheres, and fight in that kind of environment. We want to be able to increase the depth of the gameplaying experience. We also have some missions in mind that take place inside a particularly important planet (three guesses which one I'm talking about... ). Obviously graphics should be as best as they can be, something like Freelancer - which had a pisspoor storyline, but fucking amazing graphics - would be cool. The problem though, is space. TIE Fighter was awesome because there were what, 10 campaigns? Each with ~half a dozen missions? That's 60 in total. Of course the graphics back then were more or less primitive, so that might explain why.
  
  Basically though, we want some more immersion. Part of that means having different types of mission environments.
• My idea is that fighter combat becomes more co-operative. This will be a theme in the campaigns (which I'll get to in a minute), but the point is you're flying with someone and you're trying to survive together. This makes wingmen valuable.
  
  But it goes beyond that. When playing TIE Fighter and XWA I often roll my eyes and chuckle that my fighters are doing all the goddamn work, while the capships just sit there scratching themselves. (this is more of a complaint against the original TIE Fighter, since I haven't progressed to the point in XWA where you're supposed to fly at Endor - in the original TIE game, sometimes a VSD or ISD would drop you off... then stay there and do nothing.)
  
  Not only will wingmen be valuable, but so will your capships. I want to be able to receive directions from my capships, have them tell me where to go or what not. I want some of the missions to be me in a fighter protecting my carrier, which is in the middle of trading broadsides with other capships.
• Thus missions will be far more tactical than merely shoot-up-the-xwings. Maybe you're trying to destroy a rebel capship - here the ISD will be blasting at the MonCal, and you have to go in and make pinpoint strikes (take out the portside turrets, sensor globes, or what not).
• Due to the tactical nature of the game, you SHOULD be able to select what fighter you go out with. Not right away though (you start off as a pleb, wet behind the ears rookie). But eventually, when you go into briefing they'll say: "Ok, you can either go in with the Interceptors and clear out the defending fighters, go in as a bomber pilot and make the attack run, or go in with the gunboats to disable the shuttles while escorting the stormtrooper transports."

Now onto the campaigns:

1. Aftermath of Endor
   You start off at the closing moments of Endor. The Executor has just gone down. In another minute, DS2 goes up. Essentially, you're already defeated. Your goal is to escape. In this case you're to protect your mothership, Chimera, from enemy fighters. (I don't know how the timeline goes in the battle, so bear with me here) Basically you're goal is survival.
   
   Chimera will withdraw to an Outer Rim base, with repairs in mind. Unfortunately pirates and other scum decide to make your life miserable. Most of the missions in this campaign deal with the survivors of Endor and stabilising a particular region. This campaign lasts some months after Endor. The Empire is falling apart, some personalities are making powerplays to the throne; your faction is essentially staying out of the way and not getting involved. What you are doing is holding together Imperial systems, so some missions will involve 'discouraging' rebellion.
2. Throne of the Empire
   This is the 'Imperial' side of the leadup to the Courscant invasion. Perhaps ending with you holding the rebels off as they pour into orbit, while critical staff and personnel evacuate. Done in low orbit of the planet, looking just like the battle to happen in ROTS. This culminates with the Lusankya breaking free and leaving Coruscant.
   
   The early part of the campaign will involve raids and strikes against Rebel positions, using similar hit-and-fade tactics they did against you. You'll be flying gunboats mainly, but at the end you'll be flying avengers. Your goal at the Coruscant battle is to secure the evacuation of design teams and key personnel. Due to the factionalism of the Empire, you're not really there defending the place (it was under Issard, and she's a bitch).
3. Warlords
   With central command gone, you fight for a loyalist faction against people like Zinji, with the New Republic pushing everyone. Your just trying to help stabilise everything.
   
   With the loss of Coruscant to the Rebellion, some Moffs have decided to band together and make their leadership bid for Imperial holdings in the Outer Rim. More or less political/intrigue between competing Moffs, with you in the middle. But this will eventually lead to the formation of the Imperial Remnant. Some of the missions have you pick and choosing which fighter you can fly for that mission. Some of the missions involve preventing civil war from tearing up your corner of the Empire.
   
   And the final mission has you escorting a shuttle in from the unknown regions, leading to...
4. Warlord of the Empire
   Thrawn. He cuts through the shit. Stops the Moffs from sticking knives into each other's backs. Makes them co-operate. Gives them a purpose.
   
   Thrawn orders that some TIEs be fitted with shields. Thus, you don't have to worry about flying in those rickety death traps. Also this is the first time you can fly the Scimitar.
5. Shattered Sphere
   The Dark Empire timeline, part 1.
   
   Unsure of what to do here. I imagine you'd have the good stuff available to fly in this period - Defenders, Avengers, and so on. First appearance of the E-wings as well.
6. Shattered Sphere 2
   Palpys final death and defeat.
   
   Unsure of what to do here. I imagine you'd have the good stuff available to fly in this period - Defenders, Avengers, and so on.
7. The Imperial Remnant
   After the Shattered Sphere campaigns, you're essentially all alone and the NR once again victorious. Sucks to be you, doesn't it?
   
   But the good thing is: the Rebellion will now leave you alone for the most part. Which means you have every opportunity to consolidate the region. At this point you're a General in the Starfighter Corps. And your purpose is to train a new generation of Imperial pilots. The goal now is not to defeat those rebel scum, but to really just protect what you have.
   
   A lot of the missions will involve teaching the tykes the ropes, telling them what to do in such-and-such mission, and letting them make the attack run. A kind of reverse-instruction mission. Remember how in XWA you had to fly those stupid mock-combat trials for the Rebellion before you started the campaign? Well it's not that bad, actually due to your desperation the missions will be real combat it just so happens that you're a veteran and in a way, trying to teach the new generation of pilots how to fight.
8. A New Order
   Times are tough. The IR has little in the way of resources, compared to the NR. You're reduced to flying 3rd party fighters when before you were flying top of the line Seiner ships, and the war looks like it's over. The theme of this campaign is to bury the hatchet (so to speak) with the Rebel scum.
   
   Not sure what else to do here. Probably to increase the IR's power base. Maybe liberate some planets. Or convince fencesitters to join the Imperial Remnant.

Note: the campaigns are paraphrased from Chris O'Farrell's ideas, but they're more or less unchanged.

So... what do you think?

That's a good writeup, though I'd like to pretend that Dark Empire just flat never happened.

The main thing that would probably be problem here, with the more casual gamers, is the reverse order of craft acquisition. You go from the top-line to the Uglies and obsolete stuff at the end. While that's cool and realistic, that's going to turn people off.

I really like this "Aftermath of Endor" scenario. Would make a great opening

And yeah, I agree with the importance of the cap ships. Always hated they looked so tiny in the game, had so few turrets, rarely shot at other caps, etc...

Petrosjko wrote:That's a good writeup, though I'd like to pretend that Dark Empire just flat never happened.

As do I. I just can't think of anything interesting to put into it.

The main thing that would probably be problem here, with the more casual gamers, is the reverse order of craft acquisition. You go from the top-line to the Uglies and obsolete stuff at the end. While that's cool and realistic, that's going to turn people off.

True, but at the end your goal is to build up the IR to something respectable. Remember that in the NJO, the TIE Defender became the main fighter in use by Pellaeon's fleet. The second last campaign could be focused on finding the TIE D plans, and protecting the shipyards that are making them. In the final campaign, you're flying Defenders solely.

It could work.

Well I DO like DE, but I'd suggest skipping over it for now. Other than a handful of Battle of Mon Calamari missions, I can't think of anything to do.

I have been thinking of this same thing. agree with the wingmen, capships and planetary missions. I would want one or two campains in the PT era (hopefully during the Clone Wars) and both Alliance and Empire campains.

Lord Revan wrote:I have been thinking of this same thing. agree with the wingmen, capships and planetary missions. I would want one or two campains in the PT era (hopefully during the Clone Wars) and both Alliance and Empire campains.

That massively increases the space requirements on the CDs. Better option is to have the game focus on the engine to make it work, then release expansion packs or download mission from the 'net, or both actually.

Woho! A couple of thoughts.

They should try and put the key battles of the times into each of the campaigns.

Example. Endor of course, but what happens after it, screw that crap about some Grand Admiral fighting on and somehow being completly incapable of winning, show the Imperial Fleet slowly being routed and fleeing, while your ISD and one or two others stick together to cover the fleeing cowards, because if you don't no-one is getting out. Then a fighting retreat across a Hyperspace nav passage, with damaged and half destroyed ISD's jumping between the points for five minuties at a time, with pirate scum and the occasional rebel attack.

Throne of the Empire can have some of the battles described in the Rogue Squadron books, but never really seen. Also the first battle of Courscant, where you try to hold open an escape passage while the Rebel fleet in the background smashes the crap out of an Imperial blocking force and opens a hole for troopships. Then you retire to the ground and work for the PCF in the chaos of Courscants canyons flying airspeeders for a few missions, before you help Lusankya escape, but your hyperdrive equiped squadron jumps out, saying goodbye to Isard forever.

Warlords can deal with Imperials fighting former Imperials, all claiming they are the true heir to Palpitine and so on. You just trying to support one of the few loyalist holdouts left who refuse to declare alleigence. ALso the first signs that the massive Imperial war machine is starting to come unstuck as you have less access to the more advanced stuff.

Thrawn of course has the Empire all but uniting again and you really fealing you can do this. Major battles like Courscant II, Bilbringi, Sluis Van and so on.

Perhaps we can combine the two Shattered Sphere campaigns into a single 'bigger' campaign. Include the bigger ships from Dark Empire going up against the Big new NR ships in gigantic Free For Alls. The major battles like Courscant III, Byss, Mon Cal and so on. Ending with Palpy dying (for real) and you esorting a moderate fleet to what will become the IR.

Imperial Remaint will have the last few attacks by the Empire against the NR before it becomes clear the Empire is not going to rise again. The last missions should be about the Thrawn Duology and the final cutscene about the peace treaty between the Empire and New Republic. With a voice over of your character mussing over everything in retrospect, then ending with 'And then the Vong invasion....but thats another story'.

And damnit, I WANT MY TIE FIGHTER MUSIC. None of this XWA crap. I want to get John Willams and his London guys to take the soundtrack to Tie Fighter and play all the music for real. So its the same dynamic system, but with perfect sound.

Oh and Spanky, why is it your avatar always appears to be a different Askua every time I look?

Stofsk wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:I have been thinking of this same thing. agree with the wingmen, capships and planetary missions. I would want one or two campains in the PT era (hopefully during the Clone Wars) and both Alliance and Empire campains.

That massively increases the space requirements on the CDs. Better option is to have the game focus on the engine to make it work, then release expansion packs or download mission from the 'net, or both actually.

DVD-ROMs anybody and what I had been thinking was 4 campains in total (1 CIS(or Jedi), 1 Galactic Republic, 1 GE and 1 Rebel alliance/NR)

SO was TIe FIghter better than X-Wing vs Tie Fighter?

Ah, while new campaigns and new stories would be fine, I'm hoping for a flight management/tactical feature, like when you're playing Star Rangers.

See, in Star Rangers, we have a single wingman. We can tell the wingman to stay with us, helping us to tackle the enemies. However, things are evolving during the mission; new enemies can appear somewhere else (for example, to attack a starbase or a civilian ship we're supposed to protect) while we're still busy handling the enemy near us.

Fortunately, we can tell our wingman to hyperjump to handle the new threat while our hands are still full. We can also direct our wingman from one waypoint to another, to handle remote threats or simply to save his ass, all is happening real-time during the course of the mission! (of course there's an autopilot to save our ass while we're busy with the map)

Also, during the mission, we can dock at a Starbase to re-arm and repair our fighter. But of course, the battle still ensues out there, so there are times when we just can't indulge ourself to repair everything, because spending too much time in a Starbase can cost us the primary objective. Now that's the time when we have to decide; are we going to spend some more time to repair the shields, or leave the Starbase immediately because the civilian ship we're supposed to protect is under attack?

Now imagine a TIE Fighter game with such features; only this time we manage several flights instead of a single wingman. For example, we can tell the Beta flight to hyperjump (in case of TIE Advanced/Defender/Assault Gunboats) somewhere else to protect the Frigate, while retaining the Alphas with us to tackle the Rebel cruiser.

And of course, during the course of mission we can dock with a StarDestroyer to refuel and re-arm, while the battle still ensues outside. So it comes to decision again.

And I would welcome a mission planner which gives the freedom of choosing the composition of our fighters (like that in Gunship 2000). For example, we can have Alpha flight composed of TIE Fighters to distract enemy X-Wings, Beta flight of TIE Bombers to take down the Rebel starbase, and so on.

And of course, dynamic campaign!

Offcourse, sadly they would sooner make another arcade like game like Rogue Squadron (since that also sells on consoles)

So you´re basicle talking about Wing Commander 4 in the Star Wars Universe?

Of COURSE it has to have a dynamic campaign: anything else would be ... appalling.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh and Spanky, why is it your avatar always appears to be a different Askua every time I look?

Because I change my avatar at least once a day.

Sorry mate, I'd rather just see the original TIE Fighter remade with much better graphics, an appropriate scale between ships, additional ships (Executor and various ships from XWA etc), increased capital ship participation, etc.

Playing as an Imperial pilot after the war has basically been lost just doesn't interest me- it's not very compelling. Part of what made TIE Fighter so awesome was that you were fighting for the Galactic Empire- not the Imperial Remnant- you had the Emperor's agents giving you secret objectives, you had missions flying along Darth Vader, you had Imperial officers with posh English accents giving briefings and delivering ultimatums- those are either gone or lose a lot of their force if the battle is already lost.

The only additional thing I'd add is a Battle of Endor mission.

No dynamic campaign. Dynamic campaigns will not work for Star Wars. Dynamic campaigns suck the soul out of such subject matter. It's fine for a dry military simulation, but not for Star Wars.

2000AD wrote:SO was TIe FIghter better than X-Wing vs Tie Fighter?

Very much so.

salm wrote:So you´re basicle talking about Wing Commander 4 in the Star Wars Universe?

Stark wrote:Of COURSE it has to have a dynamic campaign: anything else would be ... appalling.

No, no, no. I wasn't talking about WC's "mission branching" style. I'm talking about TRUE dynamic campaign like that of Falcon 4.0, EF2000, and Total Air War.

So your performance DOES affect the course of war. Destroy a Rebel supply depot, then your subsequent missions would be easier as the Rebels are running out of supply. And of course, losing a mission doesn't mean you will lose the entire campaign.

Being able to choose and priority your targets ala MiG Alley is a nice thing as well. Would your squadron attack the Rebel ammo depot so they would run out of missiles, or would you destroy the Rebel's sensor array?

Vympel wrote:No dynamic campaign. Dynamic campaigns will not work for Star Wars. Dynamic campaigns suck the soul out of such subject matter. It's fine for a dry military simulation, but not for Star Wars.

You were talking about the plot, weren't you? I see there's difficulties in creating plot for true dynamic campaign, since the possibilities is limitless.

However, it may be done this way: the campaign itself will have limitless possibilities, but the end could be grouped in several categories: major victory, marginal victory, draw, marginal defeat, and major defeat. Each will have its own storyline and cut-scenes. And of course, scoring really high in the dynamic campaign would open and access to a "secret campaign" (like secret level in Doom)

And of course, there would be "reward" events like getting the highest medal from the Emperor himself. But such reward would come from our exceptional performance in a mission; not because we're reaching a particular part in a linear storyline.

Think about the way we get Congressional Medal of Honor in Microprose's flightsims like F-19 Stealth Fighter or Gunship 2000 instead of The Emperor's Will in the original TIE Fighter.

Vympel wrote:Sorry mate, I'd rather just see the original TIE Fighter remade with much better graphics, an appropriate scale between ships, additional ships (Executor and various ships from XWA etc), increased capital ship participation, etc.

But there IS a TIE Fighter remade by Totally Games; with texture-mapped graphics and native Win9x support. In fact, I bought one at SimLim. Unfortunately it's distributed in jewel case only. IIRC there's also X-Wing remade, but I'm not interested in flying such sluggish Rebel craft.

The minus side is: the orchestral theme during the whole menu (the concourse, etc) is gone in the new version. Instead, now it has various ambient noises and such. Also, the cut-scenes are still in 320x200 VGA.

While I love the idea, will not happen. LucasArts won't make any more space sims because they don't sell as well as things like Knights of the Old Republic and similar games.

How about you, as a single pilot (obviously) cannot radically change the course of post-Endor history alone (no flying around swatting super capital ships for breakfast)... But, as a single - deceptively small - cog in the imploding machine that is the Empire, have a chance to influence and change the long term outcomes?

In gameplay terms, if you are just an average gamer and simply follow the default mission objectives, everything will pretty much play out in the end the way EU novels has set out. But if you go that extra mile, react and fly just that much better, and fulfill a certain set of objectives over a number of missions, you can unlock the "alternative path".

For example, instead of a certain RA/NR hero flying in to save the day just in the nick of time, you whack him out of the sky with a bit of fancy evasive/offensive flying, allows your Imperial faction's flagship recover its shield and leads the fleet into a breakthrough, which sets the scene for the next (alternate) mission where another Imperial faction's fleet (which was previously observing) to take the risk to join in, and allow your now combined Imperial faction to take a major strategic system, which sets the scene for... etc.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: However, it may be done this way: the campaign itself will have limitless possibilities, but the end could be grouped in several categories: major victory, marginal victory, draw, marginal defeat, and major defeat. Each will have its own storyline and cut-scenes. And of course, scoring really high in the dynamic campaign would open and access to a "secret campaign" (like secret level in Doom)

I´m no fan of dynamic plots but if there have to be dinamic plots they shouldn´t be triggered by the player´s performance but by decissions the player makes ingame (for example the player can choose to go left or right both alternatives leading to different plots).

The problem with a performance based system is that if you complete the game the first time you play it with major victory there you´re not likely to play it again and finish it with something less. This means that a lot of cut scenes and missions would have to be made which wouldn´t be played at all.

Personally i think that it makes more sense to make a completely linear game and spend the time and budget on one plot and make that one plot perfect.

salm wrote: I´m no fan of dynamic plots but if there have to be dinamic plots they shouldn´t be triggered by the player´s performance but by decissions the player makes ingame (for example the player can choose to go left or right both alternatives leading to different plots).

I guess it's a plot branching instead of true dynamic campaign.

salm wrote:The problem with a performance based system is that if you complete the game the first time you play it with major victory there you´re not likely to play it again and finish it with something less. This means that a lot of cut scenes and missions would have to be made which wouldn´t be played at all.

Personally i think that it makes more sense to make a completely linear game and spend the time and budget on one plot and make that one plot perfect.

Alright, but I'm still hoping the ability to direct your flights ala Star Rangers, not to mention the ability to refuel/re-arm/repair during the heat of the battle.

Stofsk wrote:My idea is that fighter combat becomes more co-operative. This will be a theme in the campaigns (which I'll get to in a minute), but the point is you're flying with someone and you're trying to survive together. This makes wingmen valuable.

I like this. One aspect of Xwing that I really liked was that your character was assigned a fighter pilot image from the movie or EU (I always got Green Leader). I remember making a lot of pilots mainly to see what image they were assigned, and then assigning the other pilots to be my wingmen during the missions. I missed that aspect in Tie Fighter, and as Stosk says, it makes the game more immersive.

Perhaps assigning you to a squadron and have the game keep a log/pilot history of what each squadron member does would be kinda cool.If they are killed, the game would assign you new members randomly perhaps with lower stats. I also wouldn't mind a library feature that keeps track of ships you face and fight with and gives stats and info for each ship. Perhaps even a ship history of what missions that ship was in and what it destroyed / accomplished.

Stofsk wrote:Due to the tactical nature of the game, you SHOULD be able to select what fighter you go out with. Not right away though (you start off as a pleb, wet behind the ears rookie). But eventually, when you go into briefing they'll say: "Ok, you can either go in with the Interceptors and clear out the defending fighters, go in as a bomber pilot and make the attack run, or go in with the gunboats to disable the shuttles while escorting the stormtrooper transports."

Really like this idea. Makes the game more replayable since you can choose different roles. But again, choices should be rather limited at first until you have proved 'your mettle.'

Stofsk wrote: <snip campaign descriptions>

I would keep it simple and focus on the decline of the Empire and then the rise and fall of Thrawn. The branching ideas proposed by others are interesting but not if the plot and character storyline are to be sacrificied.

Nice writeup and ideas. I wish it were true.

Dangermouse wrote:

Stofsk wrote:My idea is that fighter combat becomes more co-operative. This will be a theme in the campaigns (which I'll get to in a minute), but the point is you're flying with someone and you're trying to survive together. This makes wingmen valuable.

I like this. One aspect of Xwing that I really liked was that your character was assigned a fighter pilot image from the movie or EU (I always got Green Leader). I remember making a lot of pilots mainly to see what image they were assigned, and then assigning the other pilots to be my wingmen during the missions. I missed that aspect in Tie Fighter, and as Stosk says, it makes the game more immersive.

Not to mention the skill level, when a Top Ace can really help you during the heat of the battle. But of course, since the pilot can simply be copied, it detracts the sense of loss when a kickass wingman getting killed in a battle (I guess it counts as cheat as well).

In fact, LucasArt includes a pre-made Top Ace wingman in their Imperial Pursuit expansion pack.