Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

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Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Darth Wong »

I'm toying with the idea of getting a new server this summer, once my tax refund comes back and I actually have some cash.

I haven't laid out all of the specs in my head yet, but off the top of my head, they would include:
  • Some sort of 64-bit CPU. I'm told they work better with MySQL. Anyone have any recommendations in this area? I'd like to find the "sweet spot" with regard to heat and price. Super-duper CPU power is not really a concern; I have observed that performance problems associated with the forum are almost invariably due to I/O wait times, not CPU bottlenecks.
  • 2GB of RAM
  • A Western Digital 10k Raptor 74GB SATA hard drive (the exact layout of partitions and the possible need for a second slower, larger HD is something I haven't really planned either, but this is about the cheapest route to a decent server HD solution that I can think of).
  • Don't really care about the graphics as long as it will handle DVDs and let me play Chromium.
Anyone have any input they can offer? It's been a while since I closely followed the hardware scene, and I'm a bit out of touch. I want to solve some of the board performance issues without breaking the bank; it's not as if I'm made of money.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

AMD's 64 bit lineup in general is simply a great bunch of processors, with excellent bang for the buck. I know you said a long time ago that you trusted Intel more, but I really think AMD's proven itself in terms of equivalent quality and reliability. With regard to heat, AMD has actually pulled ahead in this regard; Intel procs are now tending to be the hotter ones.

Since your current CPU seems to be doing fine, a low-end Athlon 64 should suit you well. With a Socket 939 motherboard, you could purchase two sticks of 1 GB PC3200 RAM and run it in a dual-channel configuration, greatly enhancing memory performance. This would leave two slots open for later upgrade up to 4 GB of RAM; further, with the new Venice core A64 chips, you should be able to load up the full 4 GB and run it at full speed (earlier A64 chips only supported PC2700 speeds with all four slots in play).

The Raptor should work just fine. I have heard that Maxtor's latest hard drives with 16 megs of cache can approach Raptor speeds without sacrificing high capacity, but a double-check on this would be in order.

EDIT: Forgot to emphasize that Socket 939 will really permit long-term upgradeability; you could start with an A64 3000+ CPU and 2 GB of RAM, and eventually have 4 GB of RAM and one of the new dual-core A64 CPUs (that are slated to be released later this year) in there. Of course, you'd probably want to purchase such a CPU later when they've dropped in price, or simply pick up an older yet still faster single-core CPU.

The right motherboard (I'm not familiar enough to recommend a specific board) should be able to keep pace with the needs of SDN for quite some time.
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Post by Faram »

You cannot go wrong with IBM, exept for the prize.

My company uses a shitload of E-Servers, they work and the ease of exhanging broken parts is a dream.
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Darth Wong wrote:I'm toying with the idea of getting a new server this summer, once my tax refund comes back and I actually have some cash.
I'm not really familiar with MySQL, but here's my two cents:


Darth Wong wrote:
  • Some sort of 64-bit CPU.
A powerful CPU can help if the database does a lot of computation or complex queries (complex joins, etc). An example is Business Intelligence database because there's a lot of aggregation.

But I don't think it is the case with a PHPBB database. Moreoever, you are correct that I/O (and RAM, if I may add) is always the first bottleneck in your database. In fact, it's always the case in any kind of database.

So put the CPU upgrade as the last priority after you upgrade the storage and RAM. In fact, unless your current CPU is very obsolete, I don't think you need to upgrade the CPU at all.



Darth Wong wrote:[*]2GB of RAM
Yup, bigger RAM always help because it enables you to increase the buffer cache size, but hard drive I/O is always unavoidable no matter how large the RAM you have, so put this as second priority after you upgrade your storage.



Darth Wong wrote:[*]A Western Digital 10k Raptor 74GB SATA hard drive (the exact layout of partitions and the possible need for a second slower, larger HD is something I haven't really planned either, but this is about the cheapest route to a decent server HD solution that I can think of).
Storage upgrade is always your first priority, but small, multiple hard drives is more important than a single, large hard drive; especially when the large hard drive is slower like you said.

Why? Because with multiple physical hard drives, you can spread your database files in multiple physical locations, so it would speed up I/O operation (simultaneous reading/writing) and reduce I/O bottlenecks.

The following is a storage separation scheme in order of priority.

(1) Redologs. Redologs *should* be separated from database files. This should be your first priority in separating the storage, because redologs always constantly write to the hard drive, so it will cause contention.

The good news; redologs are not usually large (unless in Micro$$oft SQL when redologs can bloat beyond proportion), so you just need a small (but fast) hard drive on this one.

Other things need to be separated in this priority are rollback segments (to "undo" transactions) and temporary segments (for sorting), but does MySQL have the equivalents of such things? And if it does, how much the importance of them in a PHPBB database? I guess you don't have to worry too much about rollback and temporary segments.


(2) Index. After you separate the redologs, this should be the next priority if your budget still allows it. Separating index files from table datafiles allow simultaneous reading of the both. This is particularly important in retrieving data using index. Furthermore, an index rebuild won't tax your system so much that way.


Note: you can ignore no (3) and no (4) for your immediate upgrade, but you may want to make notes of them if someday you plan to move the database to a larger server. For example, if you plan to host them on a large, dedicated database server, the following can be your "wish list" to the hosting party.


(3) Table partitioning. If you have *very* large table, you can partition it accross separate hard drive to speed up I/O. In practice, it's almost unpractical to put each table partition on a different hard drive (particularly when you have more than a thousand partitions like I did with my recent costumer), but the good news is table partitioning still help search performance even though they're placed on the same physical hard drive. Why? Because instead of skimming through a very large file to find (or update) a particular record, the I/O operation just have to "browse" through a much smaller file.


(4) Large, frequently joined tables. If you have more than one large tables frequently joined together, it's advisable to separate them in separate hard drives. Normally I would put this on higher priority, but I don't think this is a critical thing in a PHPBB database.


Darth Wong wrote:[*]Don't really care about the graphics as long as it will handle DVDs and let me play Chromium.[/list]
Wait, do you use the database server for other things as well? Then a huge RAM is a must!


Darth Wong wrote:Anyone have any input they can offer? It's been a while since I closely followed the hardware scene, and I'm a bit out of touch. I want to solve some of the board performance issues without breaking the bank; it's not as if I'm made of money.
So this should be your order of priority:

(1) Hard drives. Try to use multiple hard drives as possible as your budget allows. Small, multiple hard drives is more important than a single large one. I don't know how many hard drives you plan to buy, but at least the redologs and the datafiles should be separated.


(2) RAM. More RAM never hurts. In fact, huge RAM can save your day (to some extent) if you cannot afford multiple hard drives. In fact, if multiple hard drives is out of question, then RAM should be your highest priority, because you can have larger buffer cache to compensate the I/O bottleneck.


(3) CPU. Only put this on last priority. CPU bottleneck rarely happens in a database, and I don't think it's the case with your database. Do you *really* need a CPU upgrade? Only upgrade your CPU if the answer is absolutely yes.
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Post by Xon »

I cant say I know much about databases, but I generally dont see many kind comments about MySQL on Ars Technica's forums.
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Darth Wong »

Interesting points made. BTW:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:(3) CPU. Only put this on last priority. CPU bottleneck rarely happens in a database, and I don't think it's the case with your database. Do you *really* need a CPU upgrade? Only upgrade your CPU if the answer is absolutely yes.
I don't really need a CPU upgrade, but the RAM upgrade path on this motherboard is at a dead end at 2GB, and the board doesn't even support SATA, which I would need in order to handle that 10k Raptor hard drive with command queueing.
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Post by Beowulf »

Wait, you're going to be playing games on a server?!? Bad idea...

I second the recommendation for the Venice core A64. I'd also recommend using multiple small fast harddrives for the server.

You should be able to steal stuff from the current server to put into the new one, if you don't want to keep the old one around.
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Xon »

Most commercial consumer motherboards only allow for a max of 4gb of ram in 4 DIMMs, and it is quite cheap to fill with 1gb DIMMs at the moment.

You might want to look into something with hardware assisted RAID5 for bulk-storage. Great read preformance and a measure of redundancy you don’t have with independent disks. But you need at least 3 disks, and an RAID5 implementation which uses hardware todo the parity bit checking(otherwise preformance SUCKS).

Beowulf wrote:You should be able to steal stuff from the current server to put into the new one, if you don't want to keep the old one around.
Like what? About the only thing Darth Wong will be able to reuse is; PATA IDE/molex cables, DVD/CD drive & floppy diskdrive. And that stick of RAM(which would be the most expensive bit)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Beowulf wrote:Wait, you're going to be playing games on a server?!? Bad idea...
Chromium isn't Doom3. It makes almost no difference at all to the CPU usage. And I've tracked CPU usage while a DVD is playing and it's only a few percent. Besides, I'm not so wealthy that I can afford to buy a machine whose sole purpose is to run this forum. It is also used for other things, but nothing particularly CPU intensive.
I second the recommendation for the Venice core A64. I'd also recommend using multiple small fast harddrives for the server.
The only HD I can find that looks like it will be good for the job is the aforementioned WD 74GB 10k Raptor, unless I go to SCSI and that costs a lot of money.
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Post by Lagmonster »

What sort of budget are you planning around? A quick page of your specs to a friend in the IT group of Health Canada gets me the reply, "If you aren't picky, $700 for hardware. If you are picky, $2,500". For hardware alone, mind, sans OS or fancy bits.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lagmonster wrote:What sort of budget are you planning around? A quick page of your specs to a friend in the IT group of Health Canada gets me the reply, "If you aren't picky, $700 for hardware. If you are picky, $2,500". For hardware alone, mind, sans OS or fancy bits.
I wouldn't put too much weight on a government IT guy. Those guys have no problem paying twice what something is worth, even if it has the same brand-name components in it. A machine with a slow-ish CPU and slow graphics won't cost too much; the RAM is probably going to be the single priciest item.
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Post by Beowulf »

Darth Wong wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Wait, you're going to be playing games on a server?!? Bad idea...
Chromium isn't Doom3. It makes almost no difference at all to the CPU usage. And I've tracked CPU usage while a DVD is playing and it's only a few percent. Besides, I'm not so wealthy that I can afford to buy a machine whose sole purpose is to run this forum. It is also used for other things, but nothing particularly CPU intensive.
Do you really want to put up a message saying: "Oops, I crashed the server while playing a game?"
I second the recommendation for the Venice core A64. I'd also recommend using multiple small fast harddrives for the server.
The only HD I can find that looks like it will be good for the job is the aforementioned WD 74GB 10k Raptor, unless I go to SCSI and that costs a lot of money.
Think about getting more than one Raptor, if not when you get the system, then as the first upgrade.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Beowulf wrote:Do you really want to put up a message saying: "Oops, I crashed the server while playing a game?"
This is Linux, not Windows.
Think about getting more than one Raptor, if not when you get the system, then as the first upgrade.
Yeah, that makes sense.
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Post by Chardok »

Is there anything particularly wrong with the server as it is now? I mean, is an upgrade really necessary? Hasn't our active population remained pretty static for awhile now (Relatively static, anyway.)
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Post by White Haven »

Expanding on KAN's priority list (thanks, hadn't pictured it quite that way), you might want to wait for SATA2 stuff to hit. It's on the fairly near horizon, last I checked, and since HDD I/O is the big thing, that'll get you the most gain.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Chardok wrote:Is there anything particularly wrong with the server as it is now? I mean, is an upgrade really necessary? Hasn't our active population remained pretty static for awhile now (Relatively static, anyway.)
If you havn't noticed, the board is generally alot slower, and sometimes(atleast for me) hangs up on my requests for up to half a minute.
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Post by Beowulf »

White Haven wrote:Expanding on KAN's priority list (thanks, hadn't pictured it quite that way), you might want to wait for SATA2 stuff to hit. It's on the fairly near horizon, last I checked, and since HDD I/O is the big thing, that'll get you the most gain.
Really? I was under the impression that a HDD couldn't actually manage to max out a SATA connection. SATA2 would be less than useful, since he won't have hardware that can take advantage of it.
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Post by General Brock »

Only recommendation I can make is don't hold back on what you can afford. Saves a lot of later frustrations in the could've/should've why-the-hell-didn't-I department. :)

Besides, setting up a 64 bit CPU could be educational.
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Post by Xon »

Beowulf wrote:
White Haven wrote:Expanding on KAN's priority list (thanks, hadn't pictured it quite that way), you might want to wait for SATA2 stuff to hit. It's on the fairly near horizon, last I checked, and since HDD I/O is the big thing, that'll get you the most gain.
Really? I was under the impression that a HDD couldn't actually manage to max out a SATA connection. SATA2 would be less than useful, since he won't have hardware that can take advantage of it.
SATA2 supports Native Command Queuing which is a major plus when doing heavy IO work.

And you can chain a number of devices onto a SATA2 data port, and so it is possible to max out the 3gbps SATA2 data port.
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Post by Beowulf »

ggs wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Really? I was under the impression that a HDD couldn't actually manage to max out a SATA connection. SATA2 would be less than useful, since he won't have hardware that can take advantage of it.
SATA2 supports Native Command Queuing which is a major plus when doing heavy IO work.

And you can chain a number of devices onto a SATA2 data port, and so it is possible to max out the 3gbps SATA2 data port.
Didn't know about the second part, but some SATA1 drives support NCQ. You just need to have a controller that supports it.
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Darth Wong wrote:and the board doesn't even support SATA, which I would need in order to handle that 10k Raptor hard drive with command queueing.
I just wonder: how many hard drives supported by your mobo?

If I were you, I would probably interested in buying an old/used Mylex RAID controller card to support multiple hard drives. They're freakin' FAST, but their popularity is waning (at least in my country) because big server vendors like HP is getting more "hardware-protective". For example, HP servers only work with HP RAID controller, etc. (the most ridiculous thing: HP servers only work with HP CD-ROM drive!!! ARGH! :evil:)

If you're concerned about the risk of buying old/used hardware, such things are merely about nine bucks like this one. As for compatibility with non-server mobos, I guess you need to wait until Monday or Tuesday because I need to ask the hardware guy at my office (I took two days leave from Thursday to Friday :mrgreen: ).


EDIT: 2GB RAM should be sufficient for your database since the DB size is merely 2GB anyway; especially since you're using Linux which is not as resource-consuming as Winblows (if Linux consumes 20% of your RAM as overhead, then you still can put about 80% of the database in the buffer. Alright, 70% is probably a safer threshold but it should be sufficient. I mean, being able to put 50% of the database in the buffer is always my dream, which is never achieved because the typical database size I'm dealing with is 50GB or above :( ).

Also, is it possible in MySQL to persistenly put tables in the buffer? If you have small, static tables that queried frequently (probably SD.net user names?), it's better to keep them being "pinned" in the buffer.

Just wonder: can you control the memory swapping/paging on O/S level in Linux? Winblows 2003 is ridicolous; it just keeps swapping despite I'm using 8GB RAM and I limit my SGA size to 4GB. It appears swapping/paging is mandatory in Winblows no matter how much RAM you have.
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by Xon »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Just wonder: can you control the memory swapping/paging on O/S level in Linux?
I'm fairly sure there is some setting which controlls the swappiness of linux.
Winblows 2003 is ridicolous; it just keeps swapping despite I'm using 8GB RAM and I limit my SGA size to 4GB. It appears swapping/paging is mandatory in Winblows no matter how much RAM you have.
Under windows, it pages at the drop of a hat. But the paging really isnt a problem since it mostly is just dropping code pages(they are generally backed by whatever exe/dll image is attached to them) and other stuff which hasnt been accessed for a long time.

As long as it gets accessed frequently , and you dont have a high memory load, all the memory pages fit in memory the data pages shouldnt get paged to disk.

Someone really should do a search & replace for "swapping" to "paging" on this page :P
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Re: Recommend a new server for SD.Net!

Post by sketerpot »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Also, is it possible in MySQL to persistenly put tables in the buffer? If you have small, static tables that queried frequently (probably SD.net user names?), it's better to keep them being "pinned" in the buffer.
I think what you're looking for is MEMORY tables, and phpBB already uses them where appropriate.
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Post by Darth Wong »

OK, update: I've got my tax refund so it may be time to rock 'n roll soon. The system is clearly not CPU-bound so I don't need UNLIMITED POWER, but I do need a motherboard which supports SATA with command queueing, and which is rock-solid reliable. Stability is more important than speed as far as I'm concerned. Does anyone know anything about which chipsets and mobo manufacturers for AMD CPUs are the best? In the past, when I've gone Intel I've always preferred Intel motherboards for stability and cross-platform compatibility, but I'm curious how it works with AMD, especially with Linux drivers.
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Post by Dahak »

Personally (and in my group of friends), I have made some good experience with Asus motherboards. They always were quite reliable.
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