Could the Revolution be the most powerful for gaming?!?

[Praxis]

Something that struck me; the Rev might actually be the most powerful for gaming, or at least kill the X360.

I know, sounds crazy, right? It struck me reading the Arstechnica article.

Here's two relevant quotes:

game developer comments (on the record and off the record) have Xenon's performance on branch-intensive game control, AI, and physics code as ranging from mediocre to downright bad. Xenon will be a streaming media monster, but the parts of the game engine that have to do with making the game fun to play (and not just pretty to look at) are probably going to suffer. Even if the PPE's branch prediction is significantly better than I think it is, the relatively meager 1MB L2 cache that the game control, AI, and physics code will have to share with procedural synthesis and other graphics code will ensure that programmers have a hard time getting good performance out of non-graphics parts of the game.

Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.

At any rate, Playstation 3 fanboys shouldn't get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3's Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3's L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon's L2. So the PS3 doesn't get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs

Ouch. Neither of these processors is very good for game code it would seem.

Looks to me like Microsoft and Sony are making processor design choices to fit the "media center" idea. They want systems good at decoding HD video (12 at once according to Sony, on the alpha kits), good at multimedia, good at graphics, etc. As a result their processors are reflecting their decisions.

Is it possible that the Revolution might end up the most powerful processor for game code? The reason I'm saying this is simple; Nintendo intends the Revolution to be only for games. Microsoft and Sony are getting big on downloadable videos and media, etc, while Nintendo is giving out downloadable GAMES. EVERYTHING in the Revolution is games related. It doesn't even have a DVD decoder I guess since you apparently need to get a small attachment to play DVD's (not sure how that works, don't ask).

As a result, I'm thinking that we could end up with Microsoft and Sony with more powerful processors...that are optimized for multimedia. While Nintendo ends up with a technically slower (well since its coming out considerably later than the X360 it could be on par, dunnno) but cooler and less power consuming processor that is optimized for GAMES. As a result, even IF they have a slower processor in the Revolution they could actually get the best gaming performance.


Is this a possibility? I await your comments.

[Dalton]

One thing I've always liked about Nintendo is that they always put video games first. If I want to play a DVD I'll buy a fucking DVD player.

It's too bad that Nintendo's not doing as well as it should considering this...

[Praxis]

Nintendo's not doing so well in market share, but they've made more profits than either Sony or Microsoft this round.

I'd say more than Sony or Microsoft combined, but since Microsoft's numbers are negative it's more impressive to just say more than Sony

However, profits are short term, mind share is long term. I'm hoping the Revolution will give them significant marketshare. 30% and I'd be happy.


I'm getting annoyed with the new generation of consoles.

Sony's exact words:
"The PS3 is not a game console."

The XBox 360 and PS3 are more media streamers, DVD (Blu-ray for PS3) players, and chat devices (hint to Microsoft: I'll download MSN Messenger if I want to talk to someone, instead of paying monthly for XBox Live Gold!), than they are game consoles.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

My bullshit detector is going off. There's got to be a missing piece of the story, here. It seems unlikely in the extreme that both MS and Sony would make such an obviously bad decision. I don't buy into the latest wave of console euphoria, but the Arstechnica guy's take on this has to be wrong.

[Praxis]

My bullshit detector is going off. There's got to be a missing piece of the story, here. It seems unlikely in the extreme that both MS and Sony would make such an obviously bad decision. I don't buy into the latest wave of console euphoria, but the Arstechnica guy's take on this has to be wrong.

Well if you read carefully, basicly it will be really good at doing graphics related stuff. It's just the non-graphics related stuff like physics and AI that it is not that good at. Since both Sony and Microsoft are trying to sell people on "OMG GRAFIX!!!111", that kinda makes sense.


I'd be very surprised if Arstechnica as wrong. It's possible, no one is infallible, but Arstechnica is considered one of the most reliable tech sites from what I've seen.

I'm waiting for somebody who understands precisely what they are talking about (I understand what the stuff they are talking about is, but I don't know the kind of effects they have on different types of work like physics and AI, so I can't veryify anything said) to come on, like The Kernel, Hyperion X, or some of the other resident geniuses on the board

[Stark]

I'm as dubious as AT here, but I wouldn't be surprised. In my opinion, the Sony and MS systems have made some wierd decisions on direction that may well bite them on the ass.

Unless they're proper updateable media boxes: then I can stream movies and shit off my server. I'd buy that for ... AU$700 or whatever.

[Xon]

I wouldnt be suprised if the Xbox360 wasnt so good at branchy code.

However, physics can be very well parallelized. With mid-ware being common on the x360, it is not far fetched that an entire team has spend considerable time tuning a physics engine for the highly multi-threading nature of the X360.

I also wasnt aware that the X360 game developers even had access to the final hardware yet.

[SPOOFE]

It seems unlikely in the extreme that both MS and Sony would make such an obviously bad decision.

It's short-sighted, but not necessarily "bad". They're mirroring the PC gaming market, which will only start incorporating PPU's later this year... and it'll probably be several years before PPU's become a requirement for games.

So they design their systems to maximize graphics, with the intent of using whatever cycles they have left over for AI and physics. It's no worse than the PC market... it's just that they've gone with a minor, incremental improvement rather than the broad paradigm shift.

Now, as for Nintendo... one of the earlier rumors I had heard was that they were going to incorporate a PPU (of course, there were rumors that Sony and MS were, too). If true, it would give Nintendo an advantage in that regard... but still, since many games are designed for all three systems (and/or PC), the developers will aim for the lowest common demoninator, and thus not take advantage of that added power.

[Xon]

Revolution is also using the same type of chip from IBM for their CPU, so it isnt going to be remakably better than an X360 or PS3 for branchy code.

[Silver Paladin]

I wouldnt be suprised if the Xbox360 wasnt so good at branchy code.

However, physics can be very well parallelized. With mid-ware being common on the x360, it is not far fetched that an entire team has spend considerable time tuning a physics engine for the highly multi-threading nature of the X360.

I also wasnt aware that the X360 game developers even had access to the final hardware yet.

From what I hear, final dev kits go out August...which is shockingly short if you figure 360 will be out by November.

Considering that the TSR approval can take up to two months (although for release, I suspect MS will be be more lax in that regards to release titles), it doesn't leave a lot of time for debugging on the final dev kit.

[Xon]

By the time the final dev kits are out, those games need to be feature complete and just require extensive tuning.

TSR? What the fuck do they have todo with Microsoft?

All the games which are currently under development for the X360 would have had to be approved by Microsoft ages ago, basicly before work on the game even started.

[Silver Paladin]

By the time the final dev kits are out, those games need to be feature complete and just require extensive tuning.

TSR? What the fuck do they have todo with Microsoft?

All the games which are currently under development for the X360 would have had to be approved by Microsoft ages ago, basicly before work on the game even started.

Sorry, TCRs (Technical Certification Requirements).

There are rules that a game must follow in regards to menu controls, etc. to make it similar to other games, so that the controls are familiar cross-games. There are rules in regards to how the screen can be displayed so it's compatible with different TVs/Cables. These rules while if broken won't make the game unplayable, but it will cause MS/Sony/Nintendo to reject the game. Obviously you can only check these things once the game is done. So the game is done, you send it over to them, they check it out, and once they okay it, it goes gold.

Here is a sample License Agreement:
http://contracts.onecle.com/acclaim/mic ... 0.10.shtml

The relevant sections:

1.8 "CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS" shall mean the requirements specified in this Agreement (including without limitation the Xbox Guide) for quality,
compatibility, and/or performance of a Software Title, and, to the extent not inconsistent with the foregoing standards, the standards of quality and
performance generally accepted in the console game industry.

2.1.4 FINAL RELEASE VERSION....skip a few lines here...In addition, Licensee will
comply with all certification procedures, guidelines and standards set forth in the then-applicable version of the Xbox Guide.

[HyperionX]

It's true that for both PS3 and X360 integer performance is more or less gonna suck. However it's also true that you really don't need that much integer performance in a game console, assuming you program your game correctly. Physics can be heavily parallelized at least to a substantial degree, so can AI. Only the game's operational code needs integer, which shouldn't be a huge amount and doable with a shitty narrow in-order processor if programmed the right way. Maybe the first gen or two will face the limits of the CPU, but I'm certain later ones will make better use of the SPE's and VMX units greatly reducing the burden. Arstechnica is probably exaggerating the problem.

[phongn]

It is a mighty leap to even speculate that Revolution's CPU will be better at gaming.

[Praxis]

Revolution is also using the same type of chip from IBM for their CPU, so it isnt going to be remakably better than an X360 or PS3 for branchy code.

All we know is that they are using an IBM chip (assumption is that its a PowerPC, because the GameCube had a PowerPC in it and its backwards compatible), NOT that its using the same type of chip.

The X360 and PS3 chips are VASTLY different from, say, the G5. In-order processers, not wide, etc.

We have no idea if the chips are even related or not.