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The Anti-RPG Manifestor: Why RPGS Are Rotten to the Core

Posted: 2005-10-30 03:58pm
by Erik von Nein
Not saying I necessarially agree with the conclusions he reaches, but it inspired some interesting discussions on another board I visited and it might here, too. Well, depending on the people who'll have to patience to read this. Meh.

Originally from some guy's blog, there. Second post down.
The Anti-RPG Manifesto, or why console RPGs are rotten to the core

Everyone loves RPGs, right? Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Warrior, the list goes on and on. It's one of the most well loved genres there is, especially among the hardcore gamers. But why? I've noticed something simple while playing Chrono Trigger and Breath of Fire, popular games I did not enjoy in the least. Three words: RPGs are stupid.

Before I begin, I figure I might as well defend myself against the two obvious objections people might make.

''They're not stupid, you just don't like RPGs.''
- Not entirely true. Or, more to the point, I can think of plenty of counterexamples. I don't like fighting games, I don't like FPSs, I don't like shoot-em-ups, heck, I don't like most genres. Yet I won't claim any of those are stupid, because there it is my personal preference against certain elements of those genres. Here, the elements of the RPG genre are inherently bad.

''They're not stupid. Why, [insert RPG here] is the coolest game ever!''
- Final Fantasy VI is the only game, IMO, that can rank up there with the Zelda games, and I adore it completely. I'll sing the praises of Lufia II as well as anyone. Counterexamples are possible, and I'll explain why later. But the average RPG is stupid and a bad game, unlike the average fighter or platformer or whatever.

So anyways, lets get started. Many people believe the story is the heart of an RPG. But think about it, do you really spend 40 hours in front of the television to watch a story unfold? Especially with the types of stories found in videogames? Virtually all RPGs are yet another variation of ''unseeming hero finds that he must save the world from total evil, generally getting the girl in the process.'' Let's face it, they're simple, illogical, and rarely contain much of any significant deeposity. A great movie will provide a better story, more realistic and interesting characters, better dialogue, and a more complete experience - and at 1/20 the time! Or just read any one of hundreds of books with more interesting stories than anything videogames ever produced. VG plots are still in their infancy, generally no better than sophomoric shallow fantasies, and provide, at best, a simple escapism. There's nothing wrong with that, certainly, but to spend 40 hours in such a simplistic fantasy world? If I want mindless entertainment, I'll read a 5 minute comic book, thank you very much.

And the interactive part doesn't help matters either. Mainly because the stories aren't interactive. The potential for multiple choices, for you actually affecting the outcome, has been eliminated in favor of extremely linear games. Ooh, but Chrono Trigger has multiple endings! Yes, that's true, but such minor differences can't make up for the fact that I can think of a half dozen books or movies regarding time travel that I'd rather read or watch than see that pathetic excuse for a plot. Besides, does anyone really make the choices based on what they think is best for the story, or what is best for the game (ie, which route will give you the best exp, items, less time consuming, etc). But you can decide whether or not to save Shadow in FF6! Yes, but that merely subtracts from characterization elements later in the game, rather than fundamentally change the plot. Besides, these are the exceptions, not the rule. Your average RPG just doesn't have a very good story and you can't do anything about it.

So, that kills the plot aspect. And do we really play RPGs for the *snicker* gameplay? A good 90% of RPGs are nothing more than move,get in battle, press ''A'', win battle, repeat process. I think we can all agree that the typical RPG setup is by far the most boring gameplay out there, and can't compare to Mario or Zelda or Contra or Street Fighter or Tetris or Goldeneye or whatever other genres I forgot. Battles are random, requiring minimal input, and require at best a little bit of knowledge and at worst pressing one button over and over. ''Exploration'' is limited to finding your next destination or an equippable item, nothing like the neato environments and rewards of Zelda and Metroid. And Square's fascination with minigames are ridiculously boring (tap a button at the right time to do CPR! Tap a button at the right time to do jumping jacks! Alternately tap two different buttons to race a hippo! Yay!).

But, you say, there's strategy involved. You have to know what equipment to equip, what attacks to use, when to cure, etc! Except, no. You equip the latest weapons and armor, you use your strongest attacks over and over, you cure when that little HP bar gets too low for comfort. And if you're still having problems, just go outside and level up a couple times. Nine times out of 10, this is good enough, even for the games I consider to have strategy in them. Where's the strategy in that? And knowing what the best moves are against certain bosses (such as elemental weaknesses) isn't strategy; it's just reading GameFAQs or scanning beforehand or finding some other clue. Most RPGs require little to no brains, and little to no action. And this is supposed to be a respectable videogame genre?

Keep in mind this is all for the ''average'' RPG - one that does nothing really wrong, but doesn't do anything significantly special. Thus, the average RPG setup is bad. Perhaps the ''average'' in every genre is bad? I don't think so. Take the fighting genre, for example. You can still have a lot of fun, at least for a few moments, with basic, average games. Button mash and watch your characters react. As long as controls are responsive enough and nothing horridly done, the game can still be fun for a little while. Yes, once you start trying to learn some depth and everything, you may want to find a more refined game like Street Fighter. But that's only after a few fun starts. Think about any basic game you've played over the years, any game that seemed to merely go through the motions. It may not have been a wonderful awe-inspiring experience, but you still managed to get some enjoyment out of it, right?

Perhaps a part of the problem lies in the length of the game. Going back to fighting games, your gameplay experience is divied up into nice neat sections of a couple minutes each - each round. There's an immediacy to your enjoyment, good play is rewarded by a quick victory while poor play means a defeat. Same with racing games. In more action oriented games, you feel elation as you pass every single tricky point, thus gaining satisfaction multiple times throughout a level. Even in longer running games like Zelda and Metroid you can find immediate satisfaction. Every time you get a new item, you can try it out and have some fun. But in an RPG, these moments are few and far between. Sure, reaching a new town or beating a boss might be cool, but it's still just the same old, same old. Beating regular enemies and finding items do NOT hold the same satisfaction as in action or adventure games. Either enemies are boring and easy, or provide a challenge. Obviously there's no satisfaction in the former, and any in the latter decreases as your stock of curative items or magic depletes after every battle. Likewise, new items often simply mean the numbers go up when you hit something, nothing compared to the experimentation and fun that comes from finding the boomerang or morph ball. In order to get any significant satisfaction out of RPGs, you pretty much have to play the entire game (especially when you consider story progression as satisfaction!). And waiting 40 hours for it means the ride had better be worth it. Every other type of game is, in some way, a pick up and play game. Sure, you're not going to get a complete picture of Zelda in 20 minutes of play time, but you can still get something out of the game from that. In RPGs though, you're left feeling nothing.

So what about those exceptions, like FF6 or Lufia 2? It's simple - they do something above and beyond the typical basic RPGs. They simply employ new concepts or take interesting approaches, which catapults them from ''average'' to ''extraordinary.'' This can be done in both story and gameplay, and both of these games do it in both (I'll focus on these two since they're my favorite).

Storywise, FF6 has practically no plot for the second half of the game. Since all RPG plots are various shades of lame, this is definitely a good thing. Instead, Square focused on bringing out the theme of the game (quothe Terra: ''It's not the end result that matters, but the day to day concerns, and the celebration of life... and love.'') We see people attempting to plant flowers, Terra caring for the kids in Mobliz, Relm cheering up Strago, etc. This simple yet fresh approach made the entire latter half much more interesting. Also, Square provided some excellent characterization as well, foregoing the usual sledgehammer style of making darn sure even the dimmest of lightbulbs can understand the 2-D characters of most RPGs. So many events are done which subtly shape the characters into who they are. There's never a defining moment when Celes went from the cold-as-ice general to the full fledged Returner, yet it happened somewhere along the line. Lufia II is different. For one, there is the promise of a deeper story. Iris, Dual Blade, Arek, and the people's reactions to the Sinistrals hint that the game could delve quite deeply into religious issues and the abilities of Man. Unfortunately, these ideas were never fleshed out, and the day to day plot was pretty lame, but at least the potential is there. Furthermore, the light-hearted attitude is a definite plus, and the characters bantering and insulting each other is a mainstay of the Lufia series (''My love is my sword!'' ''If I were you, I'd stay away from thoughts like that.'')

Gameplay-wise, there's even more improvements. Every FF game since 5 has provided almost infinite levels of customization, providing some depth for those who want it. With relics, skills, and espers, there's plenty to do here. In fact, this is probably the only RPG in existence where it is possible to beat the game with levels of 7-9 or so, thanks to smart management (well, and a design error, but that's besides the point) Also, due to the plotless second half of the game, you have almost limitless freedom to do what you want and in any order. That's a refreshing change from most RPGs. Lufia II's battle system isn't quite as in-depth as FF6 (but, thanks to IP and Capsule monsters, it's better than most), and it's linear to the extreme, but it has other advantages. A puzzle based dungeon system is its highest prize, as solving each individual puzzle (some of which are quite ingenious) provides some instantaneous satisfaction. Also of note is the Ancient Cave, a massive 8-10 hour long minigame that at least starts out exciting (but does, unfortunately, become monotonous after awhile). Besides, the ability to see enemies beforehand (and thus potentially avoid conflicts), massively reduces the frustration factor.

So, besides the wonderful exceptions, what's the point of these games? They are so basic, having simple boring plots and simple boring gameplay, and they tend to drag on forever. The only good games are the ones that don't follow the basic formula, the ones that actually do something different. So why is this the darling of the ''hardcore'' gamer, a group professing to play games because they're fun? Because, quite frankly, there's nothing fun about them.

Posted: 2005-10-30 04:26pm
by Plekhanov
Only an idiot would take something like rpgs that millions of people play for fun and then attempt to ague that from some kind of objective standpoint they aren’t fun.

Also if he hates rpgs then why has he played so many and have such an encyclopaedic knowledge of them? I don’t like soap operas therefore I don’t watch them, why can’t this guy take the same approach to rpgs, it would certainly be a better use of his time than playing rpgs simply to record their faults.

Posted: 2005-10-30 04:29pm
by Uraniun235
How's he supposed to be able to criticize them, then? You realize that if he hadn't played a bunch of RPGs someone would be along to lambast him for not having the prerequisite experience needed to pass judgment on the genre?

And:
Only an idiot would take something like rpgs that millions of people play for fun
After watching friends go around looking for random battles for hours in the name of "levelling", I'm not so sure it's always for "fun" as it is for some perverted sense of accomplishment.

Posted: 2005-10-30 04:30pm
by Noble Ire
I would agree that in general, the current RPG standard battle system is pretty lame, but that aside, there is nothing in there that is not opinion (although really, in a context such as this, there is very little that isn't opinion. He should not advertise this as such.) I personally don't have very much experience with RPGs, but I have enjoyed what I have played, battle system aside. Some gamers simply enjoy an emmersive and long-lasting experience, and RPGs generally provide that. He doesn't seem to enjoy that type of experience in games, and thus this diatribe is hardly objective.

Posted: 2005-10-30 04:41pm
by Stark
His two main points seems sound to me. RPGs often have really bad stories, it takes simply horrific amounts of time to uncover it (thus suggesting that ISN'T the primary draw). Most, if not all, battle systems (but particularly the Japanese style systems he seems to be talking about) are pretty poor and are clearly not the draw themselves. As U-235 says, in FF-style games, there are literally HOURS of random encounter item-farming in each. I like the FF7 story: if it was a book, it'd be a real small one. Takes 40+ hours to finish it, though, and it takes 80+ the first time. But hey, millions of people play MMORPGs to do the same thing. I believe this suggests there's something else drawing people to these games, neither 'story' nor 'battle action'.

RPGs are a pretty broad net - however it's clear he's primarily talking about FF, CT, etc, and not things like KotOR or Morrowind.

Posted: 2005-10-30 04:45pm
by weemadando
The problem with computer/console role-playing games is that there is very VERY little actual role-playing (if any) and due to many of the constrictions and devices used, there is often not much in the way of a game.

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:07pm
by RedImperator
I would argue that GTA III, Vice City, and San Andreas are the best RPGs released in the last five years. But they aren't the Squaresoft style RPGs that this author is criticizing.

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:11pm
by Nephtys
The actual RPG genre is painfully slim.

People associate stat gaining to RPGs too much for my taste. It drives me insane. Diablo isn't an RPG. Fallout is an RPG. Final Fantasy isn't an RPG. Baldur's Gate is an RPG. (etc)

Diablo - Adventure/Hackslash
Final Fantasy - Interactive Fiction

Simple as that. There's no role playing in either.

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:13pm
by Noble Ire
Simple as that. There's no role playing in either.
So, what exactly is "role-playing" then?

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:32pm
by Solauren
Role playing is acting to rules.

Being a PC in a computer game is not the same as a real, true, role-playing game (Live ACtion or Tabletop)

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:42pm
by weemadando
I'd say that even Baldurs Gate had VERY limited role-playing aspects.

Posted: 2005-10-30 05:55pm
by Stark
I agree with RI: GTA is the closest thing to a literal RPG to come out in years. since it deals with ACTIONS and CONSEQUENCES. It allows you to 'play' whatever 'role' in '92 LA you want, and most of the action isn't related to missions.

I don't consider BG a 'role-playing game'. It's a 'quest game'.

Yes, the popular perception of 'RPG' is 'levelling', to the point where an FPS with increasing skill or ability for your character would be described as having 'RPG elements'.

Posted: 2005-10-30 06:04pm
by Vendetta
Roleplaying requires some form of player-determination. You at least need the illusion of free will in determining your character's personality and actions. Playing the character, not the character sheet.

Games like Final Fantasy don't really encourage you to roleplay, you follow the actions of the character, rather than deciding them. Even on the limited scale of, say, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, or Jade Empire, which at least has dialogue trees that lead to different outcomes for many events, or multiple paths through the same challenges, even if the progression of the actual story is the same thing every time, the details can be changed. Which is the illusion of free will.
RPGs often have really bad stories
Most videogame stories are terrible. They're just an excuse to push the player from place to place. Even the ones that generally get widely praised are, if you look objectively at them, not usually all that good.

What they benefit from is the fact that the player is, at some level, interacting with the story, even if it's just throkking your way through a bunch of mazelike dungeons because Princess Zelda managed to go and get herself kidnapped again. Unlike in a book, where all the characters' actions are laid out for you, in a game the characters do what you want them to at least some of the time (even if occasionally they have their brains removed for a cutscene, usually one where they get captured by some piddler they could beat in their sleep. Yes, Final Fantasy X, I'm looing at you). If you want Link to fart around taking pictures of everyone in the world and getting little statues made, that's what Link does. Even in the most linear Final Fantasy games (2 and 4) there's always that small option to fiddle, to wander the world and train for the battles, or even to throkk some side dungeons for shinies. What it does is give you an investment into the story.

Have you ever heard or told a funny story that fell flat, and ended up saying "I guess you had to be there"? That interactivity and investment in the story, even if it's objectively not very good, makes it so you are there.

Posted: 2005-10-30 06:27pm
by felineki
Meh, even if you take all of what this guy says as truth, Chrono Trigger still had memorable characters, points of decent plot, beautiful graphics in pretty much every category (character/monster design and animation, special effects, and scenery), and a wonderful soundtrack.

Super Mario RPG had a pretty cool soundtrack too, and it gets major points for not following the typical "Mario rescues Peach from Bowser" template, IMO. The Weapon motif was pretty interesting, too.

Posted: 2005-10-30 06:56pm
by Stark
Felineki, that's all irrelevant. Nobody's saying that 'RPGs' are bad games - far from it - simply that they AREN'T literal 'role playing games'. As mentioned, they're usually glorified spreadsheets tied to a lackluster battle engine. The specifics of the game are not in question.

Letting the play choose 'sidequests' is not enough to make an RPG. Letting a player customise their characters isn't enough. In my opinion, role playing requires an open, flexible world to reflect a players choices, such as in GTA, or to a lesser extent Morrowind. STALKER, if ever completed, gives the player the ability to do as they wish and be punished or rewarded based on their decisions. This is more 'RPG' than any FF game.

Posted: 2005-10-30 07:04pm
by weemadando
Until there is a truly "human" AI capacity on computers, there will never be an RPG on computer that can compare to even the most terribly run pen and paper game.

That's because of the human angle of the pen and paper game - the players aren't bound by the limits of the interface or dialogue options or game engine. They can try to do anything and the GM can try anything too. Its why I feel unfulfilled by most video game "RPGs" - the experience is so limited.

Posted: 2005-10-30 07:17pm
by felineki
Stark wrote:Nobody's saying that 'RPGs' are bad games
That's what the person quoted in the first post seemed to be saying, and that's what I was responding to.

Posted: 2005-10-30 07:19pm
by consequences
The guy's got his opinion, and he's entitled to it. This doesn't excuse the hypocrisy he demonstrates(unless, of course, there's absolutely no Faqs or strategy guides anywhere for Lufia II's puzzle based dungeon system, in which case I guess I owe the guy an apology).

There's also the assumption that since he feels this way, everyone else on the planet should feel the same way, unless they are a moron. That, and the fact that he seems to think that the hardcore gamers are never going to take the extra 20,40, or 500 hours needed to play out the various possibilities. Personally, when I play a KOTOR-like game for instance, I tend to play it at least three or four times, once to see what happens if the character acts like I would, once to be as good as possible, once to be as evil as possible, and maybe once for UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!1shift1shift1shift1.

No, its not going to be enjoyable in the same way as a pen and paper rpg. I for one, find them enjoyable in an entirely different way than tabletop gaming(but I also enjoy miniatures, boardgames, card agmes, and the occasional LARP, so maybe there's just something wrong with my brain when compared against the baseline).

Posted: 2005-10-30 07:29pm
by weemadando
The limiting experience of computer/console RPGs:

Charge: Rail-roading.

Case in Point - GTA:SA

Argument - Lack of a "nigger, please!" conversation option

Details:
Lack of any real option to alter major events. Why the hell can't I tell Sweet to get fucked when he wants to re-start the gang?


That can be applied to nearly any game. Why the fuck, can't I just tell the King/knight/Barkeep to go fuck himself and just do what I want.

Charge: Arbitrary events

Case in Point - Fable: TLC

Argument - Why the hell are the town guards an invincible force?

Details:
I'm fucking 100% evil and 100% scary and when I walk into town people flee at the very fucking sight of my bad self. Yet, for some reason, you kill one or two people and suddenly the town guards arbitrarily evict you. This is despite the fact that you can easily bitch 20 or 30 of them... But no, you choose to leave quietly when one tells you to.

This again can be applied to a great many games - most often these "plot devices" are merely there because the devs can't be bothered adding more options into the gameplay.


I'd add more, but I'm hungry and want lunch.

Posted: 2005-10-30 08:27pm
by Nephtys
Noble Ire wrote:
Simple as that. There's no role playing in either.
So, what exactly is "role-playing" then?
Take a look at Fallout. That's as Role Playing as it gets. Thousands of conversation options covering many topics. Much wider than KOTOR's 'good choice, bad choice, psychotic choice' range.

You also matter. What you do decides dozens of fates for the various towns and people you come across.

Posted: 2005-10-30 08:30pm
by Uraniun235
Noble Ire wrote:So, what exactly is "role-playing" then?
Role-playing is when, in a fit of whimsy, the GM decides to make your mis-cast Wall of Fog into a Wall of Frog, crushing the big lion that was otherwise going to be a complete nuisance.

Well, not really. But that can be part of it.

Posted: 2005-10-30 08:41pm
by felineki
Uraniun235 wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:So, what exactly is "role-playing" then?
Role-playing is when, in a fit of whimsy, the GM decides to make your mis-cast Wall of Fog into a Wall of Frog, crushing the big lion that was otherwise going to be a complete nuisance.

Well, not really. But that can be part of it.
Well, you can kinda do that in Chrono Trigger. :P Frog Squash.

Posted: 2005-10-30 09:48pm
by Coalition
This guy had a few ideas for MMORPGs, to make them a little more interesting:

http://mu.ranter.net/theory/index.html

Still, one idea I had, was that whenever you kill critters, you always get the same amount of gold for it. Why? Why is a wolf always carrying 50 gp (or the local equivalent)

My answer: Bounties. A town (with wolves nearby) wants to reduce the risk to its farmers crops, so they hire you to kill X number of wolves, for 50 gp each. hat bounty is only for that number of wolves, and only for a limited time. Each time you come into town, you can stop by the bounty office, to get paid, and see if there are any other bounties. Say you get a bounty for 10 wolves, at 50 gp each. If you kill 3, you get 150 gp. You kill 7, you get 350 GP. Kill 10, you get the full 500 gp. Kill 11, and you still only get 500 gp.

So if you wander around, you are just killing critters. You have to go to the towns to get the bounties, for the real money.

Or, set up the weight penalty for characters. This prevents the hero from walking around with dozens of types of items, and hundreds of each. If they have to decide what equipment to bring before they set out each time, that can lead to lots of fun. (I.e. bring fire weapons, and suddenly find the bad guy has ring of fire resistance)

A taxation system where the characters have to pay ~5-10% of their equipmetn value to enter town would work. Have it so anything above a value is what is actually taxed. I.e. set the poverty limit at 1000 gp, and the tax rate at 10%. So if you have 0-1000 gp, no tax. If you have 1500 gp, you pay 50 gp tax (1500-1000 = 500 / 10 = 50). Have 1,000,000 gp, and you will be paying 99,900 gp tax. This keeps the parties with lots of gold from simply having enough money to bribe the bad guy to stop.

Weapons repair would be another money sink. Each time you get into a fight, you have to repair your equipment afterwards.

Also, you would be able to request support from the town. I.e. expanding into enemy territory, and it takes several battles to get there, you wind up spedning a lot of time gonig back to town due to carrying loot. If the town could set up small watchtowers nearby, you could stop by them to drop off the loot, heal up, repair equipment, advance the plotline, etc.

Near towns, you would have weak critters, but as you push outwards, you get tougher critters. Also, repeatedly defeating certain monsters would reduce their area of effect. I.e. if you keep killing goblins in one area, they will up and leave. Of course, something else could move in, making things interesting again.

Finally for the bosses in the caves, normally you just level up, and beat them easily. What if the bosses gained in strngth/skill over time? Since they are not being cut back by you, they are strengthennig their forces as well. Initially, you might have just had to fight goblins. Wait a bit, and they add a Cave troll. Wait a little longer, and hobgoblins begin moving in. Keep waiting, and the critter gets tougher.

Posted: 2005-10-30 10:42pm
by Darth Wong
I think there's something to be said for the idea that certain kinds of games encourage (or even require) people to engage in purely repetitive exercises in order to improve their characters. And while people may dispute the objectivity of "fun", I would submit that no reasonable person would consider highly repetitive exercises to be fun.

I'd also say that in my view, any RPG which doesn't allow tactical control of combat is worthless. What's the point of switching from D&D to a computer RPG if the computer uses the same "roll the dice" method of combat resolution that's been used for decades in board games? Shouldn't a computer RPG actually take advantage of some of the unique features of computers? I can't figure out why someone would play a computer RPG which essentially mimics the behaviour of a non-computer RPG. Hell, I've seen some computer RPGs which almost look as if they're trying to mimic the appearance of a board game.

Posted: 2005-10-30 10:55pm
by Stark
DW, you'd be amazed to know that the very latest D&D game has an advertised feature - on-screen die rolling. Like, a little simulated d20. It's ridiculous. It's even worse than the way these computer games usually use the actual paper rules, right down to the look-up tables and simplified-for-humans formulae.

But if you remove the GM and the 'friends' and the make-believe (none of which exist in SP 'RPGs') even tabletop games are spreadsheets. I don't understand what it is that makes Diablo and WoW-style games fun, aside from the clan aspect (which can kick ass, if the devs can leave the gameworld alone, which they never can).