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Posted: **2005-11-12 07:34pm**

gamesindustry.biz wrote:Next generation DVD format will only be used for video content, says Xbox Japan boss

Japan's chief of Xbox operations, Yoshihiro Maruyama, has confirmed that while a version of the Xbox 360 console which can read HD-DVD discs is a possibility, the next-generation DVD standard will never be used for games on the platform.

His comments were made to Enterbrain's Famitsu Xbox magazine in an interview, where he expanded on a statement made by Microsoft chairman Bill Gates back in June regarding the potential for a HD-DVD enabled Xbox 360.

"It's a possibility, but it won't have any relationship to gaming," Maruyama said, according to a translation from US website GameSpot. "If the Xbox 360 uses a next-generation DVD drive in the future, it will only be used for watching movies that run on next-generation DVDs."

His statement is simply confirmation of what many commentators had already said - that Microsoft can't change the media it's shipping games on halfway through the life cycle of a console, leaving owners of the DVD version unable to play HD-DVD games.

However, it's telling that Maruyama used the phrase "next-generation DVD" rather than HD-DVD specifically. In recent weeks, several supporters of the HD-DVD standard - which is being pushed by Toshiba and its partners - have defected to the camp of rival standard Blu-Ray, which was developed by Sony and will be used by the PlayStation 3.

Microsoft, however, remains a staunch supporter of HD-DVD, for the stated reason that the specification allows for the contents of a disc to be securely "ripped" to another storage device in the consumer's home - such as a Windows Media Centre PC.

The support of the software giant hasn't extended to putting HD-DVD drives in the Xbox 360 though (not least because they probably wouldn't have been ready in time for launch), and is unlikely to carry as much weight as the support of the key Hollywood studios - most of whom appear to be falling in line behind the Blu-Ray banner at present.

So, largest game on Xbox 360: 8.5GB (Dual Layer/DVD-9), Largest game on PS3: 46.6GB. Wow, am I the only one who thinks that Final Fantasy XV is going to freaking pwn Halo 5?

Now if only they will release it for PC.

Posted: **2005-11-12 08:06pm**

Darth Atheos wrote: So, largest game on Xbox 360: 8.5GB (Dual Layer/DVD-9), Largest game on PS3: 46.6GB. Wow, am I the only one who thinks that Final Fantasy XV is going to freaking pwn Halo 5?

Now if only they will release it for PC.

Yes since storage size is never a great indicator of greatness. Afterall if we can relase twelve disks for one game I'm sure that FF is willing to release a few multi-dvd games. Just like they used to do for what game? Hmmm FF VI? VIII? and what was that? IX? Yes there were a few.

Posted: **2005-11-13 01:39am**

Yeah, we sorta knew that already, but thanks for posting anyway, as I'm sure some people missed it.

Microsoft will eventually add HD-DVD (unless it flops) to the XBox 360, for movie playback. But since older models will only have DVD drives, the games will have to still ship on DVD.

Largest game on PS3: 46.6GB

Actually; Sony has working 100 GB quad layer disks and projects eight layer disks as the maximum capacity (200 GB).

Posted: **2005-11-13 07:33am**

We've had the disc space argument before, the needed space for games isn't going to increase at the levels it has in the past years because things that used to take up space before (pre-rendered CG being the most obvious) are not only losing their importance (due to the increased amount of in engine cutscenes) but also not increasing the disc space usage at the level it once did. DVD is still a perfectly viable format for a game console. Even though I'd like to see HD-DVD for movies, I can understand why Microsoft didn't want to include it:

Costs By Hardware

PlayStation 3 Component Est. Cost at Launch Est. Cost after 3 Years
CPU IBM Cell $ 160 $ 50
GPU Nvidia RSX @550MHz $ 100 $ 30
Optical Media Blu-Ray $ 100 $ 30
Memory 256MB XDR/256MB GDDR3 $ 60 $ 30
HDD detachable 2.5" HDD NA NA
USB 6 ports $ 5 $ 3
Ethernet gigabit ethernet $ 5 $ 4
Wi-Fi 802.11b/g $ 5 $ 3
Bluetooth Bluetooth 2.0 $ 10 $ 5
Other Analog IC, ASICs, I/O $ 50 $ 40
Total
$ 495 $ 195

Xbox 360 Component Est. Cost at Launch Est. Cost after 3 Years
CPU IBM PPC $ 100 $ 35
GPU ATI GPU $ 100 $ 30
Optical Media DVD-ROM $ 25 $ 10
Memory 512MB GDDR3 $ 50 $ 25
HDD detachable 20GB HDD $ 25 $ 15
USB 3 ports $ 5 $ 3
Ethernet Ethernet $ 5 $ 4
Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g $ 5 $ 3
Controllers up to 4 wireless NA NA
Other Analog IC, ASICs, I/O $ 25 $ 20
Total
$ 340 $ 145

Take a look at the cost between a Blu-Ray drive and a standard DVD-ROM. $75 difference; that's a huge part of the consoles cost and not a useful expenditure of resources (if there was a free $75 in the budget it could be better spent on a hard drive or better CPU/GPU resources).

Posted: **2005-11-13 07:20pm**

Wow, that PS3 is damn expensive.

And IBM's making the CPUs for both consoles? Damn. Whoever comes out on top, IBM wins.

Posted: **2005-11-13 07:26pm**

How is Sony going to sell the PS3 at anything but a loss, exactly? I mean, that's fucking insane.

I guess the generation of parents currently raising kids are going to have to be a lot more generous, also, because I know for a fact that if I had asked for a $500 gaming system as a Christmas present or whatever my dad would have LAUGHED IN MY FACE.

Posted: **2005-11-13 07:31pm**

Joe wrote:How is Sony going to sell the PS3 at anything but a loss, exactly? I mean, that's fucking insane.

I guess the generation of parents currently raising kids are going to have to be a lot more generous, also, because I know for a fact that if I had asked for a $500 gaming system as a Christmas present or whatever my dad would have LAUGHED IN MY FACE.

The only solution I see to it, is the parents aren't buying it for the kids, but more for themselves.

As for the OP look at what the PC world does for it's common medium. Size is irrelevant because multiple discs aren't going to double a game's price...just have you put more in IF that. Virtually all the console games are one disc with a rare fucking few.

A game's execution matters, and while size helps, going "Look Sony can hold more!!!!!!" means shit given it's a game's content anyone cares for, not whether it can hold more gigs then it's competitor.

Posted: **2005-11-13 07:46pm**

The only solution I see to it, is the parents aren't buying it for the kids, but more for themselves.

That seems like a winning strategy; what happens when that generation finally gets tired of gaming? Seems to me the focus should be more on inevitable customer departure and less on hoping geeks like myself will still be beating the dead horse in 10 years.

Posted: **2005-11-13 08:15pm**

Joe wrote:
The only solution I see to it, is the parents aren't buying it for the kids, but more for themselves.
That seems like a winning strategy; what happens when that generation finally gets tired of gaming? Seems to me the focus should be more on inevitable customer departure and less on hoping geeks like myself will still be beating the dead horse in 10 years.

Oh I agree...more then a few products I buy are more aimed at ME, and not people ten...fifteen years younger, and that is a failing.

And yeah, my mom and dad would died laughing on the spot if I asked for a $500+ system, given they nearly laughed at the NES price back in the day, even when it went down.

Posted: **2005-11-13 09:27pm**

Uraniun235 wrote:Wow, that PS3 is damn expensive.

And IBM's making the CPUs for both consoles? Damn. Whoever comes out on top, IBM wins.

All three consoles, actually.

And remember, these are Merril Lynch's ESTIMATES. Not fact at all.

Posted: **2005-11-13 10:29pm**

Praxis wrote:remember, these are Merril Lynch's ESTIMATES. Not fact at all.

You have a problem with Merril Lynch's estimates? Got anything better?

Posted: **2005-11-14 12:30am**

Nope, but considering that Sony has not given details out for the GPU and a lot of system components it's really just an educated guess.

Posted: **2005-11-14 12:50am**

Joe wrote:How is Sony going to sell the PS3 at anything but a loss, exactly? I mean, that's fucking insane.

I guess the generation of parents currently raising kids are going to have to be a lot more generous, also, because I know for a fact that if I had asked for a $500 gaming system as a Christmas present or whatever my dad would have LAUGHED IN MY FACE.

This is a different generation of kids. A frickin' iPod (which middle-school students buy in DROVES) costs $300 plus a dollar for every single song they download onto it. Without too much trouble I could scare up a dozen kids from the local HS that had put well over a thousand bucks into their MP3 players. Compared with that, $500 for a PS3 is a bargain.

And, seriously, when you adjust for inflation I'm sure that the PS3 is going to come out about the same as an original NES or Sega, especially since Sony has consistently sold its consoles at a loss.

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:09am**

I don't think I would ever buy an iPod, because honestly those things seem to be made for the express purpose of theft. I don't have any numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that the ratio of iPods stolen to iPods owned by college students is absolutely astronomical relative to other electronic devices carried around by college students. I can't walk through buildings at UGA without at least once or twice a week seeing a stolen iPod notice on bulletin boards.

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:15am**

Joe wrote:I don't think I would ever buy an iPod, because honestly those things seem to be made for the express purpose of theft. I don't have any numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that the ratio of iPods stolen to iPods owned by college students is absolutely astronomical relative to other electronic devices carried around by college students. I can't walk through buildings at UGA without at least once or twice a week seeing a stolen iPod notice on bulletin boards.

Laptops are often stolen, too, on college campuses (though those seem much more essential than iPods).

Regardless of our judgements of iPods, though, they are VERY popular with teenagers despite their expense. Frankly, the willingness of mommy and daddy to shell out for those things demonstrates conclusively, IMO, that the mommy and daddy of today are not the same as those of two decades ago, and that they are willing to pay a lot of money to entertain their children (however transiently).

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:19am**

Joe wrote:I guess the generation of parents currently raising kids are going to have to be a lot more generous, also, because I know for a fact that if I had asked for a $500 gaming system as a Christmas present or whatever my dad would have LAUGHED IN MY FACE.

What year would you have asked for such a system? I saw one figure which put the 1977 $200 MSRP of the Atari 2600 as being equivalent to over $600 today.

Master of Ossus wrote:A frickin' iPod (which middle-school students buy in DROVES) costs $300 plus a dollar for every single song they download onto it.

You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:26am**

Uraniun235 wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:A frickin' iPod (which middle-school students buy in DROVES) costs $300 plus a dollar for every single song they download onto it.
You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?

...stop making fun of Richie Rich's $15,000 I-Pod.

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:30am**

Uraniun235 wrote:You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?

Of course not, but I'm also willing to bet that a good many parents DO shell out that kind of money for their kids to stick those songs on their $300 MP3 players.

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:34am**

Uraniun235 wrote:You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?

It's a good question, though Itunes sales is hovering in the 350-400million units sold range, so amazingly enough, people are buying 'em.
It's also possible that we are only looking at teenagers from more affluent areas. In april CNET reported Ipod sales at 5.3mil, and I wouldn't be surprised if that figure is 6, or will be 6 by year's end. I would like to hazard a guess that the cheif consumers are acutally adults. I see dozens of those things on my morning commute, far more than I've ever seen at school.

Posted: **2005-11-14 01:44am**

What year would you have asked for such a system? I saw one figure which put the 1977 $200 MSRP of the Atari 2600 as being equivalent to over $600 today.

The last system I got from my folks was a Sega Saturn (I'm not sure why I asked for one either), but at a heavily reduced price so that doesn't count. The last system my parents purchased for me was a Super Nintendo, at whatever the original selling price was.

Posted: **2005-11-14 02:00am**

InnocentBystander wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?
It's a good question, though Itunes sales is hovering in the 350-400million units sold range, so amazingly enough, people are buying 'em.
It's also possible that we are only looking at teenagers from more affluent areas. In april CNET reported Ipod sales at 5.3mil, and I wouldn't be surprised if that figure is 6, or will be 6 by year's end. I would like to hazard a guess that the cheif consumers are acutally adults. I see dozens of those things on my morning commute, far more than I've ever seen at school.

That's more than 60 songs/iPod, so that sounds pretty reasonable if a significant fraction of the songs are there "legally."

Posted: **2005-11-14 02:02am**

Nephtys wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?
...stop making fun of Richie Rich's $15,000 I-Pod.

Why don't you stop taking away my fun?

Posted: **2005-11-14 03:29am**

Master of Ossus wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:You really think every song they put onto those iPods is legally purchased?
It's a good question, though Itunes sales is hovering in the 350-400million units sold range, so amazingly enough, people are buying 'em.
It's also possible that we are only looking at teenagers from more affluent areas. In april CNET reported Ipod sales at 5.3mil, and I wouldn't be surprised if that figure is 6, or will be 6 by year's end. I would like to hazard a guess that the cheif consumers are acutally adults. I see dozens of those things on my morning commute, far more than I've ever seen at school.
That's more than 60 songs/iPod, so that sounds pretty reasonable if a significant fraction of the songs are there "legally."

I know people who had collections of hundreds of CD's before they purchased their iPods and ripped all or most of them onto the iPods. Remember, iPods don't just play iTunes music

A frickin' iPod (which middle-school students buy in DROVES) costs $300 plus a dollar for every single song they download onto it.

Are you forgetting CD's?

Although technically, most CD's song/dollar ration is more than a dollar a song.

Posted: **2005-11-14 04:31am**

One of the reasons why Xbox360 games can get away with using DVD9 over some larger storage device, is the complete death of FMV in games(excluding intros & the like) and the move to using procedurally generated textures and geometry.

Procedurally generated textures and geometry is CPU/GPU cycle intensive but cuts down on memory usage requirements. The Xbox360 gets around this problem by having more cores & hardware threads than most developers know what todo with. Sure, a single hardware thread might not be much faster than the original Xbox CPU. But it has more of them so adding scalable effects really works well.

Posted: **2005-11-14 11:05am**

The problem is that if we DO have FMV in a game, that FMV, being HD, will be a space-killer.

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