WSJ on 1,700 XBOX 360 parts and assembly.

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

WSJ on 1,700 XBOX 360 parts and assembly.

Post by SirNitram »

A nice article about what it takes to build a console and just how many things could go horribly wrong. It also illustrates the monumental task before Microsoft: Challenge an opponent who is leaving the previous generation with 70% of the market, while they hold 20%. Throw on the mistakes that caused the X-Box to be 4B$ in the red since 2001, and alot is riding on getting this right.

WSJ Free Link.
Starting Tuesday, millions of videogame fans are expected to flock to stores to buy Microsoft Corp.'s new Xbox 360 game machine. It is up to Todd Holmdahl to see that they don't leave empty-handed.

Mr. Holmdahl is the Microsoft vice president in charge of Xbox manufacturing. He works behind the scenes as the conductor of a global train of component suppliers, factories and distributors that are turning 1,700 different parts into what will likely be one of the hottest holiday gifts of 2005.

How he and his team perform will help determine whether Microsoft can challenge Sony Corp.'s position as the world's No. 1 videogame-console maker. How they do will also be crucial to Microsoft's strategy to use the Xbox to link the Web and entertainment of all forms in consumers' living rooms. One manufacturing misstep -- a shortage of graphics chips or a recalled hard drive -- could derail those ambitions and drag Microsoft's unprofitable videogame business even deeper into the red. "With 1,700 components all it takes is one not being there and it's an issue," Mr. Holmdahl says.

His task illustrates the fact that no matter how flashy the games and skilled the marketing, videogame wars can be won or lost on the factory floor. Within the first 90 days of the Xbox 360's launch, Microsoft executives expect to deliver as many as three million Xbox 360 consoles, putting them on track to sell up to 5.5 million units by the end of July.

Hitting those numbers is critical for the Xbox 360: The more machines Microsoft can sell, the more game makers will want to design their best games for the Xbox 360, starting a cycle where better games lead to higher sales of consoles, and so on. And the higher manufacturing volume that follows typically leads to lower production costs. "The faster I can build volume, the better off I am," says Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division, which includes the Xbox business.

But Microsoft's expertise is software, not Henry Ford-style mass production. When Microsoft entered the videogame console business five years ago with the first Xbox, it decided to follow industry practice and make its own hardware. That came at a huge price, though.

In at least the early stages of sales, videogame consoles typically sell at a loss. As sales and production volumes grow, console makers expect to get economies of scale that will allow them to lower costs and reduce their losses. But economies of scale were slow coming to Microsoft: Miscalculations about the cost of the original Xbox's hard drive and main microprocessor have led to some $4 billion in operating losses since 2001, analysts estimate.

While Microsoft grappled with its growing losses, rival Sony extended its already strong lead. It had proved itself with the PlayStation, which went on sale in 1994, and in launching the PlayStation 2 in 2000 had both the backing of the best game makers and the experience building smart hardware gadgets to stave off Microsoft. As previous gaming heavyweights like Nintendo and Sega lost ground, Sony was able to grab a 70% share of the videogame console market. Microsoft still holds a smaller than 20% share, according to analysts.

The new Xbox represents a new generation of videogame consoles, with unprecedented levels of realism in their graphics and vastly improved online game capabilities. But this time Microsoft may have a tactical advantage over Sony, whose PlayStation 3 won't be out until sometime next year. And, Microsoft executives say, they've learned some valuable lessons from the last round. This time the company has a better lineup of games and a smarter approach to production. In the first Xbox, Microsoft used off-the-shelf chips from Intel Corp., a decision that left Microsoft a slave to the chip maker's prices. Microsoft has since teamed with International Business Machines Corp. to make the Xbox 360's core chip, giving it more control over its costs, Mr. Holmdahl says.

The software maker also designed the Xbox 360 with a detachable hard drive, allowing it to lower the price of the console over time as it achieves economies of scale without concern for hard-drive prices, which tend to stay stable. Microsoft is selling two different versions of the Xbox 360 -- one including the hard drive, priced at $400, and one without, at $300.

But the critical challenge comes in funneling these parts, and more than a thousand others, through a manufacturing chain that looks like a road map of Los Angeles stretched across three continents.

The Xbox operation is centered at two factory sites in southern China, each run by separate contract manufacturers -- Flextronics Corp. and Wistron Corp. -- as a hedge in case one stumbles. Also near these sites are makers of many of the parts, from cooling fans to capacitors, and the 30 or so pieces of plastic that form the box. Using local suppliers means a lower risk that parts will arrive late. Local parts also eliminate the need to navigate Chinese import rules.

Microsoft and IBM started production of the processor -- the heart of the Xbox 360 -- in early July, gradually increasing production over the summer. Those chips now join a parade of other parts flowing to the Chinese factories: hard drives from Japan and Korea; graphics chips that were designed by Ontario, Canada's ATI Technologies Inc. and come from Taiwan; and buttons for the machine's controller from Lacrosse, Wis.

In all, 250 suppliers make parts for the machine. Some 25,000 workers world-wide have roles in making either the parts or the Xbox 360 itself, Mr. Holmdahl says. The two Chinese factories started rolling out finished Xbox 360s in August and now push out tens of thousands of units a day.

After each Xbox 360 rolls off the line, it undergoes two hours or so of automated testing and five minutes of manual testing before being packed into a plane or a 40-foot-long ship's container. Back at Microsoft's headquarters in Redmond, Wash., Mr. Holmdahl keeps a database chronicling the genealogy of every Xbox 360, including where it was made and shipped and exactly which parts are in it, so that any problems can be traced quickly.

The finished machines move through Hong Kong, then by boat to Chiba, Japan; Rotterdam, the Netherlands; or Long Beach, Calif. Some units reach the U.S. by air freight, landing in either Chicago or Toledo, Ohio. All U.S.-bound Xbox 360s eventually pass through a central distribution center in Memphis, Tenn., where they are packed onto trucks and trains bound for stores run by Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and Best Buy Co., among others.

The system has had its glitches. Last month, on a 5 p.m. conference call with their China-based colleagues, Mr. Holmdahl's team discovered one factory wasn't producing at the level Microsoft needed to hit its holiday season forecast. Alarmed, Mr. Holmdahl soon led a team of engineers to China, where he found that certain test equipment was bogging down as production speeded up. Ten hard days of troubleshooting and writing new software ultimately fixed the problem, Mr. Holmdahl says. "We were really able to crank up the volume," he says.

Chris Crotty, a senior analyst at research firm iSuppli Corp., says one potential chokehold on production is the custom-made IBM processor. Unlike the console's hard drive, which is commonly used in PCs and made by several different manufacturers, the processor is only available from a single source, though two factories make it. "If they were to suffer stock-outs, that would really jeopardize their momentum," Mr. Crotty says.

Mr. Holmdahl says he's confident the chip supply will hold strong. "There will be plenty of consoles available" for the holidays, he says. Still, he says on Tuesday he'll be checking with his team around the world, even as he celebrates at an Xbox 360 launch party in Redmond. "Everybody has my phone number here," he says.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Re: WSJ on 1,700 XBOX 360 parts and assembly.

Post by The Kernel »

SirNitram wrote:Throw on the mistakes that caused the X-Box to be 4B$ in the red since 2001, and alot is riding on getting this right.
Now hold on there, this may be true but it requires some clarification. First off, Microsoft never intended the Xbox to be a financial success. That's right, they knew from the start that they would lose money on it and they were simply using it to gain market share, in which they were enormously successful. Twenty percent market share from a new arrival to the market (especially with near zero success in Japan) was a tremendous achievment for Microsoft and it exceeded just about everyones expectations.

As for the four billion dollars in the red for the Xbox, that's nothing for a company that's sitting on a $50+ billion war chest of liquid assets. The negative numbers for the Xbox division look like chump change when you compare them next to that of the Windows and Office divisions. Microsoft could afford to have the X360 be a total loser financially as long as they saw a significant gain in market share, although this is highly unlikely since the reason the Xbox was a money loser has to do with manufacturing costs which are far better on the X360.
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

So, I guess in the end we have to look to Ninty who, against Sony and MS, are somewhat smaller and relying on making something of a good console with good games rather than a dent in the market shaped like a penis.

I don't mind big business if they deliver, but I never saw anything remotely interesting about the Xbox and Sony are being bitches now more than ever. Maybe Sega will resurrect itself and destroy them all... with the Sega CD 2.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Me, I'm just wondering what the hell is up with the shortage. Sure, you expect these things, but a drop from 1 million units to, I think, 150 thousand, is something of a ridiculous drop. Did one of the factories explode?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:So, I guess in the end we have to look to Ninty who, against Sony and MS, are somewhat smaller and relying on making something of a good console with good games rather than a dent in the market shaped like a penis.

I don't mind big business if they deliver, but I never saw anything remotely interesting about the Xbox and Sony are being bitches now more than ever. Maybe Sega will resurrect itself and destroy them all... with the Sega CD 2.
Have you checked out the reviews of Microsoft's launch games? Gamespot has five games with 8+ out of 10 and they haven't even reviewed Perfect Dark Zero yet, nor DOA4. If PDZ turns out to be a killer title (and early indications are good) Microsoft may well have pulled off the best launch from a games perspective ever.
Me, I'm just wondering what the hell is up with the shortage. Sure, you expect these things, but a drop from 1 million units to, I think, 150 thousand, is something of a ridiculous drop. Did one of the factories explode?
Remember that they may have pushed several shipments for the weeks surrounding the holidays instead of day one. Early indications are that MS will still ship near projections for the holiday season.
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Good for them, but I take Gamespot's reviews with a quarry of salt, because I simply don't trust half of their marks, and that goes doubly for the forum goers putting in their two cents. The Xbox got rave reviews on games like Halo, which frankly, didn't impress me at all. DOA4 is nothing special, though I like the eye candy. PDZ, last I looked at it, wasn't coming on amazingly well, but that's development shots for you (the FHM cover with Joanna was far more appealing). Other than that, the PC has been getting all my purchase capital as of late. Something about current consoles being dull bar the odd one or two games.

Having just seen some shots of Supreme Commander, I think next year's going to be an RTS one again here.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

The Kernel wrote:
Me, I'm just wondering what the hell is up with the shortage. Sure, you expect these things, but a drop from 1 million units to, I think, 150 thousand, is something of a ridiculous drop. Did one of the factories explode?
Remember that they may have pushed several shipments for the weeks surrounding the holidays instead of day one. Early indications are that MS will still ship near projections for the holiday season.
Early indications were also for hundreds of thousands to be getting to the preorder folks before then. I could imagine a drop of one fourth, one half to push more to the holiday season. This much of a shortage risks angry folks saying 'Fuckit' and getting a DS, or a previous generation bundle.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

If they've got a better handle on costs this time than they did last time, then why is the XBox 360 so fucking expensive? This is a pretty sharp jump in price compared to the original XBox, and I have to tell you that while twenty-somethings may not mind, I know a lot of parents of young boys who are not pleased at all by the sudden financial ass-raping, and who are adopting a "let's wait and see what PS3 looks like" attitude.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I believe the full Xbox 360 is priced at £280 here. If so, that's remarkably cheap for a next generation console with backwards compatibility, a built in HDD and all the other bells and whistles. The fact that the PS2 cost around another twenty quid when it came out and that wasn't even with a game or memory card speaks of some good value.

That is, if that's what the final pricing is. I can't say I've been following the release details of a console I have no intention on buying. I am most certainly awaiting Sony and Ninty's offerings given they're still 12 months off.
Last edited by Admiral Valdemar on 2005-11-19 09:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

SirNitram wrote: Early indications were also for hundreds of thousands to be getting to the preorder folks before then. I could imagine a drop of one fourth, one half to push more to the holiday season. This much of a shortage risks angry folks saying 'Fuckit' and getting a DS, or a previous generation bundle.
But you don't actually know how long the push on those preorders are. They could be as little as a week.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Good for them, but I take Gamespot's reviews with a quarry of salt, because I simply don't trust half of their marks, and that goes doubly for the forum goers putting in their two cents. The Xbox got rave reviews on games like Halo, which frankly, didn't impress me at all. DOA4 is nothing special, though I like the eye candy. PDZ, last I looked at it, wasn't coming on amazingly well, but that's development shots for you (the FHM cover with Joanna was far more appealing). Other than that, the PC has been getting all my purchase capital as of late. Something about current consoles being dull bar the odd one or two games.
Putting the PC aside, have you seen the launch lineups of every other console lately? The Gamecube and the PS2 had terrible launch lineups, as did the PSP. Nintendo's portable gaming has been better, but when was the last time we saw a handful of great titles for a console launch? The SNES maybe?
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I believe the full Xbox 360 is priced at £280 here. If so, that's remarkably cheap for a next generation console with backwards compatibility, a built in HDD and all the other bells and whistles. The fact that the PS2 cost around another twenty quid when it came out and that wasn't even with a game or memory card speaks of some good value.

That is, if that's what the final pricing is. I can't say I've been following the release details of a console I have no intention on buying. I am most certainly awaiting Sony and Ninty's offerings given they're still 12 months off.
All I know is that the original X-Box was $300 CDN including a game when I bought it a long time ago, and the new X-Box will be $500 CDN without a game, if you want the HD that is necessary to give it backward compatibility.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote:If they've got a better handle on costs this time than they did last time, then why is the XBox 360 so fucking expensive? This is a pretty sharp jump in price compared to the original XBox, and I have to tell you that while twenty-somethings may not mind, I know a lot of parents of young boys who are not pleased at all by the sudden financial ass-raping, and who are adopting a "let's wait and see what PS3 looks like" attitude.
Why was the Xbox less expensive? Because they took a $150 hit on every console they sold and they are trying to avoid it this time around.

The X360 core system is the same as the Xbox was at launch (I assume to attract the same budget concious crowd you are referring to) but I can assure you that there is no chance in hell the PS3 is going to retail for less than $399. The manufacturing costs are at least $500 according to estimates and probably more (if reports about Cell costs are to be believed).
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote: All I know is that the original X-Box was $300 CDN including a game when I bought it a long time ago, and the new X-Box will be $500 CDN without a game, if you want the HD that is necessary to give it backward compatibility.
Then you must have bought the Xbox after a price drop. It was a hard $300 US upon launch and that was without a game bundled.
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The Kernel wrote:
Putting the PC aside, have you seen the launch lineups of every other console lately? The Gamecube and the PS2 had terrible launch lineups, as did the PSP. Nintendo's portable gaming has been better, but when was the last time we saw a handful of great titles for a console launch? The SNES maybe?
The PS2 had a horrible line-up, I think I bought (or rather, my brother did) about three games in the six months after the console came out Xmas 2000. We never got a GC at first, but I can say that more gamesof interest came out for that in a certain timeframe than did for the PS2 or PC at one point. Frankly, I don't go solely by launch titles, though they should be important, they are not the sole deciding factors here. MS has a head start, a whole year at that, over its rivals. So even if they flopped at the opening, they'd still have enough time being the only next-gen console out there to get another grip on the market. Whether that tactic of racing out first to grab potential buyers before the other two of the Big 3 get their game on works or not is another matter.

As for portable gaming, neither the DS or PSP have impressed me. Sure, they're shiny and all, but I really don't care for portable gaming anymore. I got more excited over the GB Pocket when it came out in '96.
The Kernel wrote: Then you must have bought the Xbox after a price drop. It was a hard $300 US upon launch and that was without a game bundled.
I believe both Sony and MS was getting pissed off fans within a year of their consoles being released because they cut the prices of each unit quite a bit so early with no concessions for those that pre-ordered. I could have got two-grand for the PS2 my father managed to grab for my brother. I'm sure he could've waited another fews months to play the two games he bought later on with a couple of grand profit in the bank, but nooooo...
Last edited by Admiral Valdemar on 2005-11-19 09:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:As for portable gaming, neither the DS or PSP have impressed me. Sure, they're shiny and all, but I really don't care for portable gaming anymore. I got more excited over the GB Pocket when it came out in '96.
You will learn to love portable gaming if you ever try to go on a five hour drive with two kids in the backseat. With a pair of Gameboys, it's five hours of quiet conversation with your wife while the kids play quietly in the back. Without them, it's five hours of STOP HITTING YOUR BROTHER and DON'T MAKE ME PULL OVER!
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

The Kernel wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Early indications were also for hundreds of thousands to be getting to the preorder folks before then. I could imagine a drop of one fourth, one half to push more to the holiday season. This much of a shortage risks angry folks saying 'Fuckit' and getting a DS, or a previous generation bundle.
But you don't actually know how long the push on those preorders are. They could be as little as a week.
I know how long quite a few preorders are pushed back, actually; the internet's an amazing thing, you can find things out by talking to people all over. It's been consistant with those I know: Back until mid December(Between 1st and 29th; yes, some places won't have any for the shelves until post-Christmas). I've not seen any earlier. I've no reason to think this is unusual.

Don't appeal to ignorance. It makes you look like a git.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Darth Wong wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:As for portable gaming, neither the DS or PSP have impressed me. Sure, they're shiny and all, but I really don't care for portable gaming anymore. I got more excited over the GB Pocket when it came out in '96.
You will learn to love portable gaming if you ever try to go on a five hour drive with two kids in the backseat. With a pair of Gameboys, it's five hours of quiet conversation with your wife while the kids play quietly in the back. Without them, it's five hours of STOP HITTING YOUR BROTHER and DON'T MAKE ME PULL OVER!
Being the one who was in the backseat, I must agree. My first portable was a silver stock-standard Gameboy with Tetris, same for my sister. We would be silent for hours. Except for occasionally informing the other we had gotten four.

I was young, dammit.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Darth Wong wrote: You will learn to love portable gaming if you ever try to go on a five hour drive with two kids in the backseat. With a pair of Gameboys, it's five hours of quiet conversation with your wife while the kids play quietly in the back. Without them, it's five hours of STOP HITTING YOUR BROTHER and DON'T MAKE ME PULL OVER!
Haha, I was like that as a kid, but we had no steenkin' Game Boys back then. I had a single throwaway LCD game and a book or two. Without that, I'd be hitting my brother, which tended to make the journey less stressful (for me).

If nothing else, there is always the dark side of duct tape.
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

SirNitram wrote: I know how long quite a few preorders are pushed back, actually; the internet's an amazing thing, you can find things out by talking to people all over. It's been consistant with those I know: Back until mid December(Between 1st and 29th; yes, some places won't have any for the shelves until post-Christmas). I've not seen any earlier. I've no reason to think this is unusual.

Don't appeal to ignorance. It makes you look like a git.
'

Your own experiences with people isn't evidence, especially when you can't consistantly speak to hardware availibility on preorders across the board. It all depends on the retailer and their own stock estimations, not Microsoft's. People who ordered from Gamestop are royally screwed since they took Microsoft's estimates to be low end.

Christ are you trying to start an argument?
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence. But seriously, we could do with sources for some of these claims. Your word versus his is never a real appealing debate tactic. For instance, I have also heard MS has no hope in hell of supplying most of the pre-orders in England with major retailers this side of the New Year, letalone the rest of the UK or Europe.
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Admiral Valdemar wrote: The PS2 had a horrible line-up, I think I bought (or rather, my brother did) about three games in the six months after the console came out Xmas 2000. We never got a GC at first, but I can say that more gamesof interest came out for that in a certain timeframe than did for the PS2 or PC at one point. Frankly, I don't go solely by launch titles, though they should be important, they are not the sole deciding factors here. MS has a head start, a whole year at that, over its rivals. So even if they flopped at the opening, they'd still have enough time being the only next-gen console out there to get another grip on the market. Whether that tactic of racing out first to grab potential buyers before the other two of the Big 3 get their game on works or not is another matter.
True, but lately I've been more and more disappointed with Nintendo and Sony on their titles. Microsoft had a number of memorable titles for me last generation (Panzer Dragoon Orta, Ninja Gaiden, Halo 1/2, and a few others) while Sony had only the MGS games and Shadow Hearts that kept me interested.
As for portable gaming, neither the DS or PSP have impressed me. Sure, they're shiny and all, but I really don't care for portable gaming anymore. I got more excited over the GB Pocket when it came out in '96.
I bought the PSP because it is cool as hell, but the games have sucked royally. At least the DS has Nintendogs.
The Kernel wrote: I believe both Sony and MS was getting pissed off fans within a year of their consoles being released because they cut the prices of each unit quite a bit so early with no concessions for those that pre-ordered. I could have got two-grand for the PS2 my father managed to grab for my brother. I'm sure he could've waited another fews months to play the two games he bought later on with a couple of grand profit in the bank, but nooooo...
Hehe, at least he got his. Mine got stolen enroute (I got an empty box at the door) and I had to beg one off of a WalMart manager at the last minute.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

The Kernel wrote:
SirNitram wrote: I know how long quite a few preorders are pushed back, actually; the internet's an amazing thing, you can find things out by talking to people all over. It's been consistant with those I know: Back until mid December(Between 1st and 29th; yes, some places won't have any for the shelves until post-Christmas). I've not seen any earlier. I've no reason to think this is unusual.

Don't appeal to ignorance. It makes you look like a git.
Your own experiences with people isn't evidence, especially when you can't consistantly speak to hardware availibility on preorders across the board. It all depends on the retailer and their own stock estimations, not Microsoft's. People who ordered from Gamestop are royally screwed since they took Microsoft's estimates to be low end.

Christ are you trying to start an argument?
Well, what I'm trying for is a mature discussion. You're the one who leaps up and starts bleating if things aren't phrased in a way that you like(Bluntly describing losses as losses instead of referring to Microsoft's warchest; no shit, Sherlock. Of course, said thing has to fund more than X-box losses, and of course, youre asinine appeal to ignorance that we could see X-Box's magically appearing earlier than any estimates.).

So. Shut the fuck up, whining git. If you're simply going to throw out unsupported crap, don't whine when the only availiable data so far is anecdotal and fractured. The sample so far was actually EB; I've never seen Gamestop actually deliver anything on time, so I'm not surprised they're behind.

Amazon.co.uk did the same, with an identical timeframe. Hrm. Three major suppliers, I wonder whose being smarter here: the person who went digging, or the person whining?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence. But seriously, we could do with sources for some of these claims. Your word versus his is never a real appealing debate tactic. For instance, I have also heard MS has no hope in hell of supplying most of the pre-orders in England with major retailers this side of the New Year, letalone the rest of the UK or Europe.
Nitram is claiming that there is some hard and fast rule for determining preorders while I'm claiming that it's highly variable, and not entirely dependent on Microsoft being able to deliver. Like I've said, Gamestop took many more preorders than they should have even at the original numbers simply because they wanted to sell consoles in a dishonest fashion. More conservative retailers though may only need to push back delivery for a week or two.

And I'm not surprised about the UK really. The US was Microsoft's primary launch target (being their biggest market) and the stock assigned to the UK would have been the first to be leached to meet US holiday goals. This has been known since late August.
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

SirNitram wrote: Well, what I'm trying for is a mature discussion. You're the one who leaps up and starts bleating if things aren't phrased in a way that you like(Bluntly describing losses as losses instead of referring to Microsoft's warchest; no shit, Sherlock. Of course, said thing has to fund more than X-box losses, and of course, youre asinine appeal to ignorance that we could see X-Box's magically appearing earlier than any estimates.).
Excuse me fuckhead, but my clarifications on your comments about the Xbox 1 were fully justiifed. You made it sound as if it was an imperative that the 360 make money after the Xbox loss even though Microsoft knew in 2001 that the Xbox would never break even.
So. Shut the fuck up, whining git. If you're simply going to throw out unsupported crap, don't whine when the only availiable data so far is anecdotal and fractured. The sample so far was actually EB; I've never seen Gamestop actually deliver anything on time, so I'm not surprised they're behind.
Then lets see some links about stock numbers and how much stock has been pushed for how long.
Amazon.co.uk did the same, with an identical timeframe. Hrm. Three major suppliers, I wonder whose being smarter here: the person who went digging, or the person whining?
Still seeing zero numbers, and using Amazon UK gets you nothing as we knew months ago that the UK was going to get squeezed on launch delivery units. But by all means, provide some numbers/links about how many units have been delayed and for how long.
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Post by The Kernel »

BTW, maybe you should look at this:
Ars Technica wrote:If you haven't already preordered an Xbox 360 at your favorite retailer, you may be hard-pressed to find one come launch. And if you did, you may be disappointed anyway. Reports are that supplies of the consoles at launch are going to be limited, even for big-box retailers like Best Buy.

As the Thanksgiving-week US launch inches closer, Xbox 360 availability has become a hot topic of debate. Some are of the opinion that Microsoft is attempting to excite consumers into a rabid, Xbox-buying frenzy by slashing the amount of inventory made available to retailers and then waiting for news of reported shortages to create even more demand for the next-generation console. Sounds good, especially if you're Microsoft, right?

But there appears to be truth to the rumblings about lower-than-expected allocations of consoles. Reliable sources at some major retailers tell Ars Technica that they have been informed by Microsoft that they will be getting as few as one-third the number of Xbox 360s that they had planned for. The rest of those initial shipments are being diverted to the likes of Wal-Mart and Japan.

Those reports make sense. Because of its giant reach, Wal-Mart has the leverage to demand as many consoles as it wants. It makes sense for Microsoft to give the largest retailer in the US what it wants, even at the expense of other retailers. Getting as many Xbox 360s to Japan as possible at launch time is understandable in light of Microsoft's stated desire to capture as much of that market as possible before the release of the PlayStation 3 from hometown-favorite Sony.

If you've preordered an Xbox 360, don't be too surprised if you get an apologetic e-mail or phone call telling you that you won't be able to walk out of the store with a new console on November 22 as you had hoped. (Two such people have contacted us about this already, one of whom is a trusted source with connections to retail.) Microsoft needs to play the supply-and-demand game carefully, though. If the 360 is too scarce, it may cause some consumers to take a pass on the console until after the holiday shopping season, or simply wait for the PS3 in 2006. The company's best hope is to have as many Xbox 360s available as are needed to meet demand. There's nothing like news of brisk sales to create a positive buzz around a product launch.
According to this, some retailers are getting stock boosts at the expense of others. Know what that means? That some won't get preorder targets because the consoles have shifted to places like WalMart, not because they aren't getting made.
Post Reply