StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The following is based on the N64 games "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" and "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask" (incidentally, shouldn't it be "The Legend of Link"?). These are the only games I have direct experience with, I'm also going to assume that "Ocarina of Time" and anything associated with it overrides any earlier games reguarding the events surrounding Ganondorf's rise to power and Link's emergence as the Hero of Time.

My theory, which I have held since I played "Ocarina" is that Link and Zelda are fraternal twins. They are both the childeren of the High King of Hyrule and his wife, the Queen of Hyrule (deseased).

Think about it, Zelda and Link are the same age, have the same hair color, same eye color, and they look similar to eachother.

Some background information:

There is some mention throughout the game about a Civil War that occured ~11 years in the past. The circumstances of the war are unclear and rather irrelevant, the King may have siezed the throne during the war, or he is the rightful King and the war ended when he crushed the usurpers. Doesn't really matter which. In any case, we do know that both Zelda and Link were born during the war. We also know that Zelda's mother, the Queen, was lost during this war.

The Deku Tree tells Link that he was brought to the Lost Woods as a newborn infant by a grieviously injured woman. This woman died of her wounds after entrusting the child to the Deku Tree, who saw that it was a Child of Destiny and accepted the charge.

Finally Zelda has the power of prophesy. She can see the future in her dreams. It isn't uncommon in fantasy for children to inherit the supernatural abillites of their parents. Greek mythology is full of heroes who are of exeptional strength becasue one of their parents (usually the father) is a god. It wouldn't be that surprising if her mother could also see the future in her dreams.

My theory in it's entirety:

War raged throughout Hyrule, and the King struggled to regain his throne from the tracherous usurpers (or whatever were the circumstances of the war). The Queen at this time gave birth to a set of twins, a boy and a girl. Because of her prophetic visions, she knew that the Kingdom of Hyrule would be in danger in the future, and her children would have to save it. She decided that the best way to insure both the future of the Hyrule and the safety of her childern, would be to have one of them be raised outside of Royalty. Obviously giving the child to some peasants presented a shitload of problems (like being recognized, or the kid not being raised right). So after entrusting Zelda to the Shiekah warrior Impa, she - in all probability guided by her visions - went to the Lost Woods and gave the Link to the Deku Tree.

Eleven years later, Link's quest begins. He goes around collecting the keys to the Temple of Time. When he does and opens the door to the Sacred Realm (which we unfortunately never get to see), Ganondorf enters into the Sacred Realm also and tries to take the Tri-Force. Link, being too young to beat up a Gerudo King of great power who just got even more powerful, is imprisoned in the heart of the Sacred Realm for 7 years. When he awakens eveything is changed, including himself. In any case he proceeds to use The Master Sword and his leet Powers of Rightousness to wake-up the Seven Sages and then beat the crap out of Ganondorf and his demonic incarnation Ganon.

Once everything has been returned to normal, Link is sent back in time to the past. To a point shortly after he left. His youth restored, and with the knowledge that everything is going to go to hell and he can't do anything about it, Link takes Epona* and leaves Hyrule. Essentially all of Link's other adventures are in the period of time during which Ganondorf is taking over the High Kingdom of Hyrule and probably also the surrounding lands. Basically, when in "Ocarina of Time" you are playing Adult Link and saving Hyrule, there is another Link, in a different part of the world, going on adventures and trying to avoid interferring with his past self. This also means that when the game ends, there are also two Links, one in a sort of deep sleep in the Temple of Light in the heart of the Sacred Realm, who is going to become the Hero of Time, and the one that just offed Ganondorf, had his youth restored, and is now going to leave Hyrule.

So, what do you guys think?

*There is something of a plot-hole here. How can he take Epona with him if she clearly is still in Hyrule 7 years later? My theory is that Epona goes back in time with him after he beats Ganondorf.

My theory in it's entirety:

War raged throughout Hyrule, and the King struggled to regain his throne from the tracherous usurpers (or whatever were the circumstances of the war). The Queen at this time gave birth to a set of twins, a boy and a girl. Because of her prophetic visions, she knew that the Kingdom of Hyrule would be in danger in the future, and her children would have to save it. She decided that the best way to insure both the future of the Hyrule and the safety of her childern, would be to have one of them be raised outside of Royalty. Obviously giving the child to some peasants presented a shitload of problems (like being recognized, or the kid not being raised right). So after entrusting Zelda to the Shiekah warrior Impa, she - in all probability guided by her visions - went to the Lost Woods and gave the Link to the Deku Tree.

Then why was she greviously injured? Surely she didn't travel unaccompanied, and if the menace killed her guards, why was she spared? (perhaps she walked into that miserable Peahat )

Eleven years later, Link's quest begins. He goes around collecting the keys to the Temple of Time. When he does and opens the door to the Sacred Realm (which we unfortunately never get to see), Ganondorf enters into the Sacred Realm also and tries to take the Tri-Force. Link, being too young to beat up a Gerudo King of great power who just got even more powerful, is imprisoned in the heart of the Sacred Realm for 7 years. When he awakens eveything is changed, including himself. In any case he proceeds to use The Master Sword and his leet Powers of Rightousness to wake-up the Seven Sages and then beat the crap out of Ganondorf and his demonic incarnation Ganon.

Once everything has been returned to normal, Link is sent back in time to the past. To a point shortly after he left. His youth restored, and with the knowledge that everything is going to go to hell and he can't do anything about it, Link takes Epona* and leaves Hyrule.

Then why did Zelda send him back at all? She would risk Link doing the same thing again?

Essentially all of Link's other adventures are in the period of time during which Ganondorf is taking over the High Kingdom of Hyrule and probably also the surrounding lands. Basically, when in "Ocarina of Time" you are playing Adult Link and saving Hyrule, there is another Link, in a different part of the world, going on adventures and trying to avoid interferring with his past self.

That can't be true- in Wind Waker it's metioned that the Link there might be a descendant of the hero of time, so it obviously takes place long in the future. The Link in Link's Awakening and the other games looks radically different from the Ocarina of Time version, too.

This also means that when the game ends, there are also two Links, one in a sort of deep sleep in the Temple of Light in the heart of the Sacred Realm, who is going to become the Hero of Time, and the one that just offed Ganondorf, had his youth restored, and is now going to leave Hyrule.

If that's the case, why didn't Link ever see the second Master Sword when he left the sacred realm?

Adrian Laguna wrote:(incidentally, shouldn't it be "The Legend of Link"?)

No, the original two games make the title more clear. Essentially, Link was told a legend. About Zelda. The second game (The Adventure of Link) deals with an earlier Zelda who has been asleep under a spell for probably centuries. That being the true Zelda of legend.

The games take place in different periods, with different Links and Zeldas. Each new game seems to take place earlier in time. The original Zelda game was the final defeat of Ganon, and the second was Link preventing Ganon from ever being resurrected again by acquiring the third Triforce (Courage).

The third game (A Link to the Past) took place before this, as the title hints. Link must rescue the seven girls who are descendants of the seven sages from OoT and prevent Ganon from returning from the Golden Land which he has corrupted into the Dark World.

Ocarina of Time takes place even before this. I forget how it ended, but was he sealed off? If so, then it was likely that he was sealed in the Golden Land, where he eventually attempts to return from in LttP.

My theory, which I have held since I played "Ocarina" is that Link and Zelda are fraternal twins.

Maybe in some iterations. By the way, in LttP, Link's uncle said "Zelda is your..." just before passing away. There was never any further elaboration as to what that meant. Some think the final word was to be "destiny," since Link is destined to save a Zelda, it seems. (The final Link actually saved two Zeldas.)

or link and zelda could look like cause, you know, they didn't put alot of thought into the graphics of the characters, or all elves (or whatever they are) look alike

Or you're reading to much into a video game

In regard to the Link to the Past thing, wasn't the last character in the Japanese version "destiny?"

Qwerty 42 wrote:Then why was she greviously injured? Surely she didn't travel unaccompanied, and if the menace killed her guards, why was she spared? (perhaps she walked into that miserable Peahat )

Marauding party of thieves or rebels? People being injured and left for dead isn't that uncommon.

Then why did Zelda send him back at all? She would risk Link doing the same thing again?

What do you mean? He saved Hyrule, so as a reward he gets back those seven years that he lost. If we go by the Multiple Sequencial Universes Theory of Time Travelling (which I came up on my own, thank you very much), then Link runs the risk of being in an Universe where Ganondorf wins and kills his other self instead of the other Link winning and being sent to a past universe. There is no risk whatsoever to Zelda or her Hyrule since in her Universe Link won and there is nothing that will change that. Plus there is a chance that she will see Link again since a Link from a diffent universe arrived just as this Universe's Link was imprisoned in the Temple of Light.

That can't be true- in Wind Waker it's metioned that the Link there might be a descendant of the hero of time, so it obviously takes place long in the future. The Link in Link's Awakening and the other games looks radically different from the Ocarina of Time version, too.

I was mostly referring to "Majora's Mask", which is the only other Zelda game I have experience with. I was merely extrapolating based on that.
BTW - How does Majora's Mask end? He beats the Mask, says goodbye to his fairy and continues the search for Navi. Am I right?

If that's the case, why didn't Link ever see the second Master Sword when he left the sacred realm?

What second Master Sword? He beats Ganon and he is transported back in time. His Master Sword stays in his Universe, and the MS of the Universe he arrives to is stuck to a pedestal.

Maybe in some iterations. By the way, in LttP, Link's uncle said "Zelda is your..." just before passing away. There was never any further elaboration as to what that meant. Some think the final word was to be "destiny," since Link is destined to save a Zelda, it seems.

Maybe he was going to say "Great-grand mother/aunt"?

Qwerty 42 wrote:In regard to the Link to the Past thing, wasn't the last character in the Japanese version "destiny?"

The Japanese name for A Link to the Past was Triforce of the Gods (Kamigami no Triforce).)

Oh, and the theory of Link and Zelda being twins is complete and total fan-brewed BS with no support whatsoever in the games. They look similar? Guess what, so do about half the characters in the game, brother.

Nor has that ever been a theme suggested in any of the games, either. In ALttP, it's even contadictory. Basically, no offence, but your theory is crap.

And the games don't override each other, they're actually part of one single huge arc.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:And the games don't override each other, they're actually part of one single huge arc.

I think he meant that if there was anything told about Ganondorf's rise to power and Link becoming the Hero of Time in any of the other games which was contradicted by OoT, then OoT would be the "true" way it happenend (which does makes sense, as the other games takes place centuries (if not millenia) after OoT so any stories about the events there would probably not be very accurate).


The twin idea, while interesting (very reminiscent of old myths and of course Star Wars), has problems but I don't think it is actually contradicted by anything in the games. But does it explain anything that needed an explanation in the games?

It doesn't explain a damn thing. There are no gaps filled by it, nor does it solve any possible contradictions. It just seems like a fannish "neat idea" based on the fact that in OoT, Link and Zelda as kids look vaguely similar to each other, which they really don't that much if you look at both in-game models and official character artwork for the game.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:It doesn't explain a damn thing. There are no gaps filled by it, nor does it solve any possible contradictions. It just seems like a fannish "neat idea" based on the fact that in OoT, Link and Zelda as kids look vaguely similar to each other, which they really don't that much if you look at both in-game models and official character artwork for the game.

It can also be noted that twins doesn't always look similar. Luke and Leia, doesn't, for instance (I also know a real-life pair of twins that looks very different from each other)... So the idea that they are twins could have been proposed anyway, simply because they appear to be of the same age and because it isn't outright stated that they aren't...


Hmm...
Actually, I just now thought of a way to resolve the paradoxes that comes from Zelda sending Link back in time. She might not actually be sending him back, but altering his local time, to make him young(er) again. Ganon would still be locked in the sacred realm, as the other games says he was, and Hyrule would become peaceful, with everything being the way it would be after the huge party at Lon Lon Ranch.

Of course, this means that not only would it be good-bye to Zelda for Link, but also every one of his other friends because they are still grown up (except for the Kokiri. I guess Link could and would go back to them) while Link is a child again. That could explain why he wanted to leave Hyrule in the first place. Then the friend he's looking for in MM isn't anyone in particular but actually just a friend, since all his old friends were lost (and if really is looking for Navi he's looking in the wrong place. He locked her up in the Temple of Time when he put the Master Sword to rest). Could also explain why the Skull Kid doesn't recognise Link, because the "fariy kid that taught him that song" taught him that song more than seven years earlier...

There are a few problems, however:
1. Zelda must also have brought Epona back in time. Either that, or Link somewhere found another horse that looked very similar.
2. There is also the little cutscene in MM that shows child Zelda giving the Ocarina of Time to Link. Is Link's memory distorted as it is "rushing back" or did Zelda also turn back time for herself? If so, why would she do that? Hyrule would be left with a small child as ruler...


So with this explanation we're left with some inconsistencies, instead of time paradoxes (which are horrible) and some other inconsistencies (for instance, Link would then already have the Ocarina, as he had gotten it only moments earlier, when Zelda threw it at him. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to be in the Master Sword chamber at all. The cutscene in MM would be redundant or outright wrong).

However, there is one very interesting consequence, and it is that this idea kills all "Link's love" fan speculations dead!
Except possibly Romani, but they didn't want him to stay in Termina, so... Why do they treat Link like shit, BTW? They didn't let him in at the party in OoT and when the Clock Town Carneval in MM was about to start he was told to leave the country...

Dooey Jo wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:It doesn't explain a damn thing. There are no gaps filled by it, nor does it solve any possible contradictions. It just seems like a fannish "neat idea" based on the fact that in OoT, Link and Zelda as kids look vaguely similar to each other, which they really don't that much if you look at both in-game models and official character artwork for the game.

It can also be noted that twins doesn't always look similar. Luke and Leia, doesn't, for instance (I also know a real-life pair of twins that looks very different from each other)... So the idea that they are twins could have been proposed anyway, simply because they appear to be of the same age and because it isn't outright stated that they aren't...

Whatever, my main problem with this twin "speculation" BS is that it's just stupid and retarded.

About supposed time paradoxes and such, I don't personally recall anything major, and I'm willing to just skim over and ignore anything that's piddly and more or less inconsequential.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:About supposed time paradoxes and such, I don't personally recall anything major, and I'm willing to just skim over and ignore anything that's piddly and more or less inconsequential.

There's the problem that if Link is sent back, then everything he did as Adult Link would have been undone and Ganondorf would be free from the Sacred Realm. It's been bugging me ever since some guy at another board claimed that a piece of fanfiction was canon because it was hosted at a site that he claimed was official. That fanfiction took advantage of said paradox and it also featured Koume and Kotake, even though they should have been dead (and also, Link and Zelda were married. It was truly horrible. Reading it left me scarred and deformed).

Maybe time is just flexable enough to let shit happen in the future still apply in the past.

Relax, brother, it's just a video game.

Dooey Jo wrote:Actually, I just now thought of a way to resolve the paradoxes that comes from Zelda sending Link back in time. She might not actually be sending him back, but altering his local time, to make him young(er) again.

-snip

There are a few problems, however:

-snip

2. There is also the little cutscene in MM that shows child Zelda giving the Ocarina of Time to Link. Is Link's memory distorted as it is "rushing back" or did Zelda also turn back time for herself? If so, why would she do that? Hyrule would be left with a small child as ruler...

-snip

I might be completely wrong here, since it's been quite literally years since I've last played OoT, and my memory has never been all that great (not to mention that, currently, my N64 is approximately 120 kilometres away, and it's 2:35AM)... But towards the very end of the ending credits for OoT, wasn't there a scene which showed young Link sneaking back into the Hyrule castle courtyard, and young Zelda suddenly turning around to face Link like the first time they met? And the scene then freezing into a frame of sepia tone?

Yes, there was, exactly.

The third game (A Link to the Past) took place before this, as the title hints. Link must rescue the seven girls who are descendants of the seven sages from OoT and prevent Ganon from returning from the Golden Land which he has corrupted into the Dark World.

Actually, from what I remember, Nintendo have always been deliberately very vague about the chronology of the series. In fact, I'm sure I remember reading on some of the more well informed fansites that the chronology you've stated (with the exception that Adventure of Link is always put after Zelda 1) is basically what you get if you fit the games in with the American comics from way back when. There's apparenty an arguement (which I always found convincing) that LttP was actually the final one (which makes more sense to me personally, as I'm pretty sure the Spirit of the Triforce at the end of LttP said Ganon was gone for good). Of course this is all purely from fansites, so it's quite possible I'm wrong.

I Wonder where Twilight Princess will end up fitting in? I'm sure I read a developer interview with some hints on that but I can't for the life of me find it again.

TP is set something like a few generations after OoT, but before TWW.

And virtually everything sensible I've read puts ALttP between OoT and LoZ. LoZ and AoL are both pretty much at the very end of the series, when Hyrule has essentially rotted down to a pale sign of its former glory.

Zelda Legends has probably the best timeline and story continuity related content I've seen on the Net.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Maybe time is just flexable enough to let shit happen in the future still apply in the past.

Relax, brother, it's just a video game.

You should tell yourself that Spankster

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:TP is set something like a few generations after OoT, but before TWW.

Only one or two generations, I think. I can't remember the exact length of time off the top of my head, but I do remember initially thinking that we might have a chance to see two generations of Links & Zeldas interacting with each other. The timeframe was right for the mother of the new Zelda to be OoT's Zelda.

I've heard it suggested that TP might be the backstory of the Zelda from AoL. If this is going to be the last "traditional" Zelda game, it wouldn't surprise me much for them to be winding up old plot threads, so I can't really discount this rumour off hand.

Adrian Laguna wrote: Marauding party of thieves or rebels? People being injured and left for dead isn't that uncommon.

I know, it just seems improbable that if their objective was the queen that they'd let her go so easily, unless they were possessed of an extreme paranoia about the forest.

Then why did Zelda send him back at all? She would risk Link doing the same thing again?

What do you mean? He saved Hyrule, so as a reward he gets back those seven years that he lost. If we go by the Multiple Sequencial Universes Theory of Time Travelling (which I came up on my own, thank you very much), then Link runs the risk of being in an Universe where Ganondorf wins and kills his other self instead of the other Link winning and being sent to a past universe. There is no risk whatsoever to Zelda or her Hyrule since in her Universe Link won and there is nothing that will change that. Plus there is a chance that she will see Link again since a Link from a diffent universe arrived just as this Universe's Link was imprisoned in the Temple of Light.

So this particular jump in time created a change in universe, but the innumerable other times it happened in Ocarina of Time, Oracle of Ages, and Majora's Mask did not?

Besides, the multiple universe idea is bunk after Master Quest. In the Spirit Temple in Master Quest, Link hits a switch that drops a chest into a room he can't get at as an adult. When he goes back in time, that chest is still there. The conclusion is that parts of various sacred areas are immune to time. This supports why Zelda sent him back in time- the Sacred Realm is immune to time, hence it was safe to send him back, since Ganondorf would always be sealed away. Until Wind Waker, anyway.

That can't be true- in Wind Waker it's metioned that the Link there might be a descendant of the hero of time, so it obviously takes place long in the future. The Link in Link's Awakening and the other games looks radically different from the Ocarina of Time version, too.

I was mostly referring to "Majora's Mask", which is the only other Zelda game I have experience with. I was merely extrapolating based on that.
BTW - How does Majora's Mask end? He beats the Mask, says goodbye to his fairy and continues the search for Navi. Am I right?

Yes, but there's speculation he never made it back to Hyrule. The opening sequence to The Wind Waker says that the people of Hyrule held out to the end, waiting for the Hero of Time that never returned, possibly because he was still in Termina.

If that's the case, why didn't Link ever see the second Master Sword when he left the sacred realm?

What second Master Sword? He beats Ganon and he is transported back in time. His Master Sword stays in his Universe, and the MS of the Universe he arrives to is stuck to a pedestal.

The pulling/ replacing of the Master Sword happens after Young Link enters the Sacred Realm. Once Adult Link left the Sacred Realm, wouldn't he see the second Master Sword when he left, assuming we stick with the multiple universe theory?

Maybe in some iterations. By the way, in LttP, Link's uncle said "Zelda is your..." just before passing away. There was never any further elaboration as to what that meant. Some think the final word was to be "destiny," since Link is destined to save a Zelda, it seems.

Maybe he was going to say "Great-grand mother/aunt"?

The princess in every Zelda game is called Zelda. Besides, the original Japanese character was "destiny."

I believe the whole "Link to the Past comes after the original and AoL" comes from a supposed quote from Mr. Miyamoto implying such. I also think said quote has since been dismissed as hearsay or was decided to have been misinterpreted.

Also, I have heard a theory, supposedly inspired by statements made by producer Eiji Aonuma, that the events of Ocarina created two "alternate Hyrules; one which picks off directly from where adult Link defeated and sealed Ganon, and one which continues from where he went back in time at the very end becoming a child once more. Supposedly, Wind Waker continues the former branch, whereas Link to the Past, the original, and Adventures of Link continue the latter.

Yeah, the Miyamoto "quote" has been rendered void for quite some time.

I believe that Aonuma quote has also been stretched out and misinterpreted, and that both men have stated that there is only one single timeline in the continuity.

Multiple timelines are pure bullshit, anyway. Some people just don't know how to think on the edge of the box to enough of a degree to just arrange them all into one clean line...

Lord of the Farce wrote:I might be completely wrong here, since it's been quite literally years since I've last played OoT, and my memory has never been all that great (not to mention that, currently, my N64 is approximately 120 kilometres away, and it's 2:35AM)... But towards the very end of the ending credits for OoT, wasn't there a scene which showed young Link sneaking back into the Hyrule castle courtyard, and young Zelda suddenly turning around to face Link like the first time they met? And the scene then freezing into a frame of sepia tone?

That is correct. But the thing is, the scene is pretty much exactly like first time you met Zelda. Right down to what shield you were wearing. That is why I have always thought of that scene as a flashback, much like the other flashback to when you first met Ganondorf, which also changed depending on what shield you used when that scene started.

Actually, I watched it again just now, and when Link puts down the sword, he looks at himself, sort of surprised. Why did he do that? He had gone back through time multiple times before. Maybe it was different this time

Maybe time is just flexable enough to let shit happen in the future still apply in the past.

It's possible, I suppose. Maybe the Goddess of Time cut them some slack and resolved the paradoxes for them. That's probably how Miyamoto or Aonuma would explain it...
Still, I kind of like my explanation. It is elegant No multiple Links or other weird shit is needed...

Relax, brother, it's just a video game.

*gasp*
Blasphemy! It is teh Bible
It must make sense!

The way I understand the epilogue of OoT is that Zelda sends Link back, but somehow Link doesn't get sealed away by the Master Sword despite his being a child. He then replaces the Master Sword and closes the Door of Time, trapping Ganondorf in the Dark World. End result, both Link and Zelda are young again and guard the Tri-forces of Courage and Wisdom respectively.

The time mechanics of OoT don't work if you think of time as a constant anyway.

Alternate timelines don't work, because you're essentially creating a world that is identical to the original Hyrule except for one minor detail at the point of divergence. I'm sorry, but no mere mortal is going to be able to do something that rivals the Three, especially not without the complete Tri-force.