StarDestroyer.Net BBS

So, when it comes to computers, I'd have to say that my parents are . . . hideously uninformed.

According to my father, for example, a good computer is very much like a good automobile: if you make an informed choice the first time you go to the dealership, you might have "a keeper" that'll last you most of the rest of your life. So long as you don't ram it into a tree, your computer should - with regularly schedueled maintenance - still be performing to original specification well down the road.

Of course, we all know that, in the world of computing, quantum advances render anything obsolete from the moment it exits the packing crate. This has left my father to form some rather odd rebuttals to common criticisms. If anyone in the family complains that the computer is "old," it's in fact "a classic." If a grandchild complains that the computer is old, it's "an hierloom." If a great-grandchild complains any further, it's "an artifact."

So you can imagine my surprise when my father told me he would consider chipping in for a new machine to replace my old one. Apparently, it would be less than the cost of upgrading to achieve uneneviable results anyway.

Now, I don't have a horrible system. Four years ago, it was top of the line. Only today has it met its limit: I can't run Battlefield 2 and other games at the "high end" of the performance scale.

Anyway, I know very little about computers, and running around the Alienware website keeps resulting in $5,000 or $6,000 prospect builds that I figure my father won't consider too readily. So, can anyone offer some good advice about how to build the ultimate gaming platform on the cheap?

Post budget first, then people can spec something out for you.

I suppose that with a bit of work, I can convince him of something around $4,000.

But most probably he's going to favor proposals in the $2,000 range. So anything between those two.

Axis Kast wrote:I suppose that with a bit of work, I can convince him of something around $4,000.

But most probably he's going to favor proposals in the $2,000 range. So anything between those two.

Is this going to be used for office work? Or gaming?

*steals anandtech guide*

Processor Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 512K 1.80GHz (939) - Retail 146$
Motherboard DFI LanParty UT SLI-DR 165$
Memory Patriot PC-3200 2x512MB Extreme Performance XBL 150$
Video Card XFX 7800 GT Overclocked 379$
Hard Drive Western Digital SATA II 160GB 7200RPM 8MB Caviar SE 81$
Optical Drive BenQ DW1640 Black (OEM) 43$
Case Cooler Master Cavalier 3 CAV-T03-UK 76$
Power Supply SunBeam 550W NUUO SUNNU550-US-BK Modular PSU 86$
Display Acer AL1914smd-8 19 inch 8ms LCD 301$
Speakers Labtec ARENA 685 5.1 Speakers 48$
Keyboard and Mouse Logitech Internet Pro Desktop 23$
Bottom Line 1498$

I think its a pretty good basic system, you can play around with it per your needs, lowering the motherboard or switching it for an ASUSArrow, don't kill me for loving DFI).
Theres the Graphics card, if you're just gonna game once in a while, a 66GT or an X800GTO are both good buys.

With the money saved you could upgrade the storage for more room.

You can get a lot of computer for even a "mere" $2000. Check our the Hot Rod on ArsTechnica.

With your budget, you may wish to go for SLI, 2GB of RAM and a fast dual-core CPU.

All prices from Mwave.com. If you want to buy online, buy from Mwave.

$120 - ASUS PUNDIT AE3 SIS760GX CHIPSET AMD ATHLON 64 / SEMPRON BARE SYSTEM
$128 - Athlon 64 3000+ - NEWCASTLE
$160 - MWAVE 2GB DDR400 RAM
$29 - Assemble/Test Bundle
$73 - SEAGATE 120GB ST3120213A UATA-100 7200RPM 2MB 9MS
$45 - NEC ND-3550A SILVER 16X/16 DVD DUAL DOUBLE LAYER REWRITABLE DRIVE W/SW (White box)
$119 - CHAINTECH NVIDIA GF6600 256MB DDR 8XAGP TV & DVI #SA6600-256 (Retail)
$134 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 ZAT-00007 (OEM) (If used for gaming.)

$808 total, assuming you don't pirate Windows (which is illegal and something I would never condone.) That's well under the limit and gives you a good solid CPU.

Keyboard/Mouse/Monitor/Power Strip all recycled from old computer.

A 6600 is a budget card, and not even a great one at that; a much, much better budget card would be the 6600GT.

But with a budget such as he's posted, he could easily go with a 7800GT (or, dare I say, the 7800GTX?) and a faster processor.

Uraniun235 wrote:A 6600 is a budget card, and not even a great one at that; a much, much better budget card would be the 6600GT.

But with a budget such as he's posted, he could easily go with a 7800GT (or, dare I say, the 7800GTX?) and a faster processor.

What can I say, I'm frugal by nature.

Revised:

$327 - SHUTTLE ST20G5 ATI RADEON XPRESS 200 CHIPSET AMD ATHLON 64 BARE SYSTEM (Retail)
$624 - AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4600+ MANCHESTER
$160 - MWAVE 2GB DDR400 RAM
$29 - Assemble/Test Bundle
$73 - SEAGATE 120GB ST3120213A UATA-100 7200RPM 2MB 9MS
$45 - NEC ND-3550A SILVER 16X/16 DVD DUAL DOUBLE LAYER REWRITABLE DRIVE W/SW (White box)
$479 - LEADTEK PX7800GTX 256MB GF7800GTX 256MB PCI-E DDR3 W/VIVO)
$134 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 ZAT-00007 (OEM) (If used for gaming.)

$1871 total.

Ugh, do NOT use an Xpress 200 chipset unless you like slow I/O preformance. Just get a damn Nforce 4 Ultra.

Ace Pace wrote:Ugh, do NOT use an Xpress 200 chipset unless you like slow I/O preformance. Just get a damn Nforce 4 Ultra.

I see, my apolagies.

Revised:

$368- SHUTTLE SN25P nVIDIA nFORCE4 CHIPSET AMD ATHLON 64 BARE SYSTEM (Retail)
$624 - AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4600+ MANCHESTER
$160 - MWAVE 2GB DDR400 RAM
$29 - Assemble/Test Bundle
$73 - SEAGATE 120GB ST3120213A UATA-100 7200RPM 2MB 9MS
$45 - NEC ND-3550A SILVER 16X/16 DVD DUAL DOUBLE LAYER REWRITABLE DRIVE W/SW (White box)
$479 - LEADTEK PX7800GTX 256MB GF7800GTX 256MB PCI-E DDR3 W/VIVO)
$134 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 ZAT-00007 (OEM) (If used for gaming.)

$1912 total.

Looking good, I'm not familier with Nwave, do they have high end value ram(I know, Oxymoron)?

Or does Mwave take Corsiar/Kingstone/etc. memory and repackage it? He could get a nice boost from some 1T RAM.

What kind of PSU is gonna run that?

Second, the HD, that 2MB cache is CRYING for an upgrade, switch it for a Diamondmax 10 250GB 16MB cache.

To save costs(if we want to stay under 2000$) we could also go back down to the GT.

Ace Pace wrote:Looking good, I'm not familier with Nwave, do they have high end value ram(I know, Oxymoron)?

Or does Mwave take Corsiar/Kingstone/etc. memory and repackage it? He could get a nice boost from some 1T RAM.

What kind of PSU is gonna run that?

I'm not sure, the RAM is an option that comes with the motherboard/case bundle and is the only 2GB option. What type of RAM would you reccomend?

RAMs today come in 2 major groups.

so called Value RAM, which is generally less agresive timings(speed), costs a shitload less and is generally good enough.

High end RAM(OCing RAM), fast timings, 1T rate, it costs anything from two to 2.5 times more and is mostly a waste.

However you still have generic RAM and I'd love to know what Mwave RAM actully is. Asumming you have on that list an option for Kingstone, OCZ, Corsair(or any other brand) aslong as it dons't cost far more, take it.

You can build a bitchin' system for just over $1000 acutally.

Mwave Barebone:
x2 3800+ CPU (320)
Abit An8 mobo (100)
Gig of Kingston value ram (80)
DVD RW (45)
Case(pick your own, high end is $100)

Just add your own HD (easily 50), monitor (if you need one; can easily be the most expensive component), GPU (the 7800gt is now ~300$, and is a great card for the money), and an OS, which can be free... or not. (minus monitor, that, in fact, comes out to ~$1000. Add say $30 for shipping, plus the cost of your OS and monitor and you've got youself a solid machine.
Mind you that is more for a do-it-yourself type person.

Or have Mwave do all the work for you.
XP Pro @ 130
Assembly Fee @ 80
or the rest, simply add your components into the cart. This, I should add, gives you more options, and requires 0 effort on your part. Whereas a barebones only has the "hard" bits installed (read as, whever you choose ni the barebones config). If you're on a budget a barebones is great because you can go to any vendor you want for most of the computer, and save a couple hundred here and there if you look hard enough.

Note that every single product has it's own manufacturer's warrenty inculded which is usually 3 years, or in some cases lifetime. However all these parts, as long as you do a bit of reasearch on them, are gaurnteeded to be far surperior to the ones Dell or HP will sell you, and much much cheaper than those that Alienware or Falcon-NW wants you to buy.

Also, perhaps I could interest you in the jesus of laptops?
the Sager 5720 is an amazing gaming platform. It's mobile GTX is disgusting, and the mobile sonoma chip, for games, is fantastic. It only gets maybe 1.5 - 2 hours of battery life, but it doubles as your main machine, at around $2500 with insurance and mid-range parts, it's an amazing laptop. Of course an equiv Desktop is half the price...

$368- SHUTTLE SN25P nVIDIA nFORCE4 CHIPSET AMD ATHLON 64 BARE SYSTEM (Retail)
$624 - AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4600+ MANCHESTER
$249 - CORSAIR TWINx2048-3200C2
$29 - Assemble/Test Bundle
$100 -MAXTOR 250GB MXDX6B or 6L250R0 UATA-133 PATA 16MB 7200RPM (Bare drive)
$45 - NEC ND-3550A SILVER 16X/16 DVD DUAL DOUBLE LAYER REWRITABLE DRIVE W/SW (White box)
$395 - JATON NVIDIA GEFORCE 7800GT 256MB DDR3 PCI-EXPRESS DUAL DVI-I
$134 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 ZAT-00007 (OEM) (If used for gaming.)

$1947 total.

The Hard Drive doesn't come with an ATA cable, so remember to save one from the old computer.

Looking great.

Going aside, a good mouse today would be the G5 or MX500. Keyboards are as much as taste as anything.

Monitors, well it all depends on what size screen you prefer.

Yogi wrote:$368- SHUTTLE SN25P nVIDIA nFORCE4 CHIPSET AMD ATHLON 64 BARE SYSTEM (Retail)
$624 - AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4600+ MANCHESTER
$249 - CORSAIR TWINx2048-3200C2
$29 - Assemble/Test Bundle
$100 -MAXTOR 250GB MXDX6B or 6L250R0 UATA-133 PATA 16MB 7200RPM (Bare drive)
$45 - NEC ND-3550A SILVER 16X/16 DVD DUAL DOUBLE LAYER REWRITABLE DRIVE W/SW (White box)
$395 - JATON NVIDIA GEFORCE 7800GT 256MB DDR3 PCI-EXPRESS DUAL DVI-I
$134 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64 ZAT-00007 (OEM) (If used for gaming.)

$1947 total.

The Hard Drive doesn't come with an ATA cable, so remember to save one from the old computer.

I was thinking of one of those machines over the summer, but after reading some of the big SFF forums I was just too afraid, it was like everyone had some problem with those shuttles, wacky troubles. I didn't have the nerve, even though I'm fairly sure those folks exist in the minority.

Well, first of all, thanks for the outpouring of comments. I was highly (and happily) surprised to see that spending big bucks for a nice machine needn’t necessarily be in the cards.

That said, I do want to introduce some caveats…

1. I’ll take an AMD over a Pentium.
2. Let’s say I can spend anywhere between $3,000 and $3,500, and that if I’m building a “dream machine,” I would want to end up somewhere right around the bottom end, but that I could “jump up” if the $500 was very much worth the extra power.
3. Upgrading the PC in the future is out of the cards; I know so little about computers I can barely turn mine on. I don’t want to sacrifice speed or power, but if anything you’re proposing is based on the notion that I’ll heavily “mod,” “overclock,” or add special components to the system down the line, that’s unnecessary.
4. I will need this assembled.
5. I will need a dial-up modem (just in case), but also wireless network adaptability as well as the cable hook-up (I’m sure that’s now standard, though).
6. I only need an 80GB hard drive at the most. I don’t want to spend the money for more unless the extra space is free. I don’t think I’ve ever used a quarter of what I have available on my old machine, but 80GB is a “safe” limit.
7. I shouldn’t need a monitor; right now, I have a fairly old NEC 19” monitor. It’s got a lot of prints on the screen – which won’t come off – but as long as it can connect to the new machine, I shouldn’t have to spend the extra money.
8. I’ll need a mouse, but I have an Alienware USB-compatible keyboard. Oh, and I don’t want a wireless mouse. And the more buttons the better.

If someone would be willing to specify a time to sit down and map this out with me individually via AIM or ICQ or something, that would be awesome, too, although this venue is fine as well.

If you're looking for game performance, then the Athlon 64 FXs are still king. Most games are not multi-threaded, so you won't see much of a performance gain from a dual-core CPU. The X2s will give you better flexibility in non-gaiming apps, but if gaming is your primary concern, the Athlon 64 FX is the way to go. The only trouble is they're still pretty expensive. I have an X2 4400+ and it's great. If you decide to get an X2 but don't want to pay the price of the 4800+, I'd get a 4400+ instead of a 4600+. There's not a whole lot of difference between the two, and you'll save over $100 US.

The GeForce 7800GT is definitely the best value for the money. Hell, you might be able to nab two of them and throw them in SLI! So if you get a 4400+ and two 7800GTs, that's around $1100US (low end), which leaves $1900 of the $3000 budget. You can get an ASUS K8N SLI Premium motherborad for around $180, and 2GB of Corsair PC3200 Memory for under $300, so that's another, say $500. A case, power supply(500W or better, I'd get 600W for dual videocards), optical drive(s), hard drive(s), and others should easily come under your remaining budget.

The FX is a waste of money, the higher end dual cores will give you great performance now, and stellar performance in the future.

I just configured one on GamePC:
EDIT: You might want to try two GeForce 7800GT rather than one 7800GTX

Axis Kast wrote:4. I will need this assembled.

In that case, ignore what I posted. I just listed the parts, and YOU get the honor of putting everything together.

Here is mine. I got it from cyberpower, and I've been happy with it. However, like all new computers it had some bugs to work out.

CPU: (939-pin) AMD ATHLON64 X2 4800 CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology
CD: SONY 16X DVD-ROM [-16] (BLACK COLOR)
CD2: SONY DWQ-28A DUAL FORMAT 16X DVD+/-R/+/-RW + CD-R/RW
FAN: CoolerMaster Liquid CPU Cooling Fan System Kit + 2 EXTRA CASE FANS [+89]
Floppy: NONE
HDD: (SATA150) Maxtor 300GB 7200RPM 16MB Cache Hard Drive [+79]
MOTHERBOARD: (Sckt939)ASUS A8N SLI Deluxe nForce4 SLI Chipset SATA
PCIE MB w/Gb-LAN,USB2.0,IEEE-1394,&7.1Audio [+77]
MEMORY: 2048 MB (1GBx2) PC3200 400MHz Dual Channel DDR MEMORY
OS: Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional w/ Service Pack 2 [+135]
POWERSUPPLY: Thermaltake Purepower 680 Watt Power Supply - SLI Ready [+155]
PRO_WIRING: Professional Wiring for All WIRINGs Inside The System Chasis with
High Performance Thermal Compound on CPU [+19]
SOUND: New! Creative Labs X-FI XtremeMusic 24-BIT PCI Sound Card [+117]
VIDEO: NVIDIA Geforce 7800 GTX 256MB 16X PCI Express Video Card [+462]
VIDEO2: NVIDIA Geforce 7800 GTX 256MB 16X PCI Express Video Card [+515]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Coupon: INSTANT (5% Discount) -$155.10
SUBTOTAL $2,946.90
Sales Tax (N/A) $0.00
Shipping: Fedex Ground $65.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GRAND TOTAL $3,011.90

Only get 1 7800GTX. You can add the other one later, provided that your mobo supports SLI. The 7800GTX is the best card money can buy right now, and upgrading with a second one should be less expensive and comparatively easy in the future. It'll also bring your budget down, and I'm unaware of games that overtax even a single GTX, today.

Master of Ossus wrote:Only get 1 7800GTX. You can add the other one later, provided that your mobo supports SLI. The 7800GTX is the best card money can buy right now, and upgrading with a second one should be less expensive and comparatively easy in the future. It'll also bring your budget down, and I'm unaware of games that overtax even a single GTX, today.

He did mention that he wasn't good with computers. Maybe he should just get both right now. Also, don't you need the same ROM version on both cards? might be difficult to find them later.