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I am just posting this to see what peoples thoughts are on psionics and other varient magic systems in Dungeons and Dragons are.

I'm mostly familier with 3/3.5 editions of psionics, but my understanding was that they were overly powerful in the previous edions. In 3rd they seemed very weak to me, but that was primarily because I would take blasting over other spells and they sucked at blasting.

3.5 psionics are leaps and bounds above 3rd. The dropped psionic combat, and allowed for augmentation. Some might consider them overpwered, but one thing for sure is that they are better than wizards at blasting, at least until they run out of juice. This is with out metamagic feats though. Then it would come down to Energy Missle/Stun versus Scorching Ray and the orb spells. Psionics suck at buffs, all they have is self-buffs, fine for a gish but lackluster anything else. How ever beating people telekineticly with a dead goblin at 3rd level is just plain awsome.

Incarnum seems very intresting to say the least. With how they have all their abilities for the day up all the time, but only enough power for a couple of them to be fully powered. I also like how what I consider the primary incarnum class the, Incarnate. Your Neutral on an axis and non-neutral on another, and you get abilities based on your alingment. So you can be Evil Incarnate

Warlocks are the opposite end of the spectrum from having more damaging abilities that can be used less than wizards, they go for crap damage that can be used infinitely. I played a warlock in a friends campain and was decent. It was a lot weaker than my previos characters in that campain. On the offense, but it had a bunch of usefull abilities that I really didn't take full advantage of.

Artifacers from my understanding are extremly powerful if you go full-blasting, but the time I played one I was going for a mediocre fighter with jacked up equipment so it was a little lack luster. But the fact that they know all their infusions and one of their infusions allows them to duplicate other spells was cool. I used it to cast mount a halfdozen times to help move a bunch of refugees.

Unearthed arcana has spells that any body can do, but they take a indeterminite amount of time, allows for the cultists that arent the BBEG to help with the spell of doom I would imagine.

It also has spell points and casting spells with recharge time. I like both things to a degree, but I have no experience with either of them.

Considering Spell Theif a varient magic system might be strecthing it a little bit, but they seem intresting, but very campain dependent. The ability jack spells and junk off your enemies would be awsome in the right campain.

3.0 psionics was a little on the weakside

3.5 psionics is overpowered.

Monte Cook's variant Arcana Unearthed system is really cool. Briefly there is one master spell list going to 10th level. Spells are divided into simple, complex, and exotic with different spell casting classes having different access, which is then modified by feats. Various feats (Eldritch Training, Energy Mage, and Quicken Spell for example) allow you to modify spell effects.

You have a spells known list (those you have memorized at the moment), which is seperate from the spells slots you have available to cast. Each spell can be cast in a diminished form (1 level lower and weaker) or heightened (1 level more powerful) with altered effects. You can also break down a spell slot into 2 lower level slots or weave three spells into a higher level slot.

Overall, lots of options and room for variety.

I like the Warlock as a caster without the crazy D&D caster power curve. He doesn't have the Wizard problem of being useless for the first few levels and godly later on. Of course this does give him the problem of being weak at high levels when all the other casters are gods.
Mechanically he's a step away from the IMO bizarre and clunky slot-based magic that D&D uses. The entirety of the class's powers can be written down on a few pages. You can fill an entire book with Wizard spells.
It's a fun little class, if perhaps a bit underpowered (an rarity in current D&D).

Raxmei wrote:I like the Warlock as a caster without the crazy D&D caster power curve. He doesn't have the Wizard problem of being useless for the first few levels and godly later on. Of course this does give him the problem of being weak at high levels when all the other casters are gods.
Mechanically he's a step away from the IMO bizarre and clunky slot-based magic that D&D uses. The entirety of the class's powers can be written down on a few pages. You can fill an entire book with Wizard spells.
It's a fun little class, if perhaps a bit underpowered (an rarity in current D&D).

Actually if you make your wizard right he should be fairly effective, even from 1st level. The thing is that Magic Missle sucks, and you should take sleep, colorspray, or something of that nature for your first spell. For your second 1st level spell either mage armor or another of the first two options and run a couple hundred feet back after that and pull out your ranged weapon. Or use acid splash or what ever.

Incarnum and psionics are also a step away from the vancian system that the other spell casters have. Which is why I like them.

Warlock can stand his own fairly well at high level with use magic device, a Chausible, and Eldritch blast rod thingy, and a well played character. Like just making himself invisible and walking around with a wand of cure critical wounds, staff of healing, and with him spamming Evards black tentacles on anything that isn't large. At 20th level he should be able to do about 33d6 damage with his EB 3/day , spending 6 charges of a rod and be able to pull off 3 quikened ones in addition. If he is undead he can use this to heal himself too. Though an optimized wizard should be able to do about 36d6, 24 of which is maximized. But the warlock should be able to not be an arms length away while doing it. Or be able to hit more than one target.

But casters really shouldn't be using direct damage at this level, you should be helping the guy on the horse get quadruple digits of damage, and dominating enemy barbarians.

Imperial Overlord wrote:3.0 psionics was a little on the weakside

3.5 psionics is overpowered.

2nd Edition Darksun psionics are overpowered too. They get very powerfull abilities at low levels. The meditation rules can be abused to create gamebreaking characters.

Darksun was a very cool setting, but 2nd edition game mechanics allowed you to make ridiculously powerful psionicists and fighter types.

Thunderfire wrote:

Imperial Overlord wrote:3.0 psionics was a little on the weakside

3.5 psionics is overpowered.

2nd Edition Darksun psionics are overpowered too. They get very powerfull abilities at low levels. The meditation rules can be abused to create gamebreaking characters.

3.5 edition psionics really aren't over powered, they just have a couple potentially broken powers. Like clerics with their stringers, and Divine Metamagic. They are better at blasting and healing than wizards, worse in healing than clerics, buffs about equal to wizard except all his buffs are self only. I am not sure on how the psion compares in the area of battlefield control and save or dies, but I think the wizard has the edge in these abilities.
The psionic warrior can perform 2 roles noticible better than the fighter, that being clawing people to death, and any thing where it is helpfull in being 30 feet tall.
The wilder is broke. It is the only class where its primary class feature sucks more as you level up.
Soulknife is a decent enough of a class. It's a second tier warrior, rogue, harraser. Alot like the monk.

The only powers that I belive that are for sure overpowered are the dispel psionics, temporal acceleration and energy stun. Energy missle is in a maybe catagory.

You're on crack. Being better at blasting and healing than a wizard is almost the definition of broken and a psychic warrior completely dominates standard fighter types. Vampiric healing tricks, empathic damage transfer, oak flesh, lion's charge, and the turning your charisma into temporary strength points are just a few of the tricks I've seen. Not to mention being able to blast way with dragon breath.

Psychic Warrior and Soulknife are powerful classes but they are not so powerful as to get out of hand.

Psion, on the other hand, is obscenely broken, especially if you insert it into an old-school D&D realm as opposed to a fully psionic one. We had a psion in one campaign who accidentally killed a party member by forcing him to run into a temple full of clerics that hated him, set people on fire at random, then rendered the chief melee combatant helpless for a full 15 rounds because of a single failed Will save. He was actually one level away from killing people in a single round when we finally grew tired of his antics and turned on him. Now here's the big difference between psions and wizards: psions can do all that without revealing it's them doing it. A wizard has to cast the spell and can only reduce the requirements for it by taking feats. But a psion who passes a Concentration check can do it without any kind of signal. It's too broken.

Kuja wrote:Psychic Warrior and Soulknife are powerful classes but they are not so powerful as to get out of hand.

Psion, on the other hand, is obscenely broken, especially if you insert it into an old-school D&D realm as opposed to a fully psionic one. We had a psion in one campaign who accidentally killed a party member by forcing him to run into a temple full of clerics that hated him, set people on fire at random, then rendered the chief melee combatant helpless for a full 15 rounds because of a single failed Will save. He was actually one level away from killing people in a single round when we finally grew tired of his antics and turned on him. Now here's the big difference between psions and wizards: psions can do all that without revealing it's them doing it. A wizard has to cast the spell and can only reduce the requirements for it by taking feats. But a psion who passes a Concentration check can do it without any kind of signal. It's too broken.

A Wizard could do all that except for it being undetectable. This is something I didn't take that part into account. Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks. A wizard can cast silent image around himself to make it look like he isn't moving and use silent spell to take care of the talking, and walla no signal. But every thing else looks to me like just like an asshole player, and things that any other spell caster can do. Like rendering the cheif melee combatant useless with a will save is anything special.

lance wrote:Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks. A wizard can cast silent image around himself to make it look like he isn't moving and use silent spell to take care of the talking, and walla no signal.

Oh by the powers. Like no one would notice the bard is always singing when these things happens? And let's not forget Metamagic has, you know, costs involved. But no. Let's pretend Psi is balanced. It never has been before..

lance wrote:A Wizard could do all that except for it being undetectable. This is something I didn't take that part into account. Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks.

One Detect Magic later, the ruse is blown wide open, even assuming all Spot checks fail. By the time a psion's work takes effect, it's already too late.

A wizard can cast silent image around himself to make it look like he isn't moving and use silent spell to take care of the talking, and walla no signal.

Which takes two spells instead of one, a feat, and the sacrifice of a higher-level spellslot to use the feat. That versus one Concentraction check. Are you HONESTLY comparing these?

Like rendering the cheif melee combatant useless with a will save is anything special.

For 15 fucking rounds? At level SIX?! Is that a fucking joke? I'll check my player's handbook but I'm pretty damn sure no spellcaster can duplicate a feat like that.

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote:Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks. A wizard can cast silent image around himself to make it look like he isn't moving and use silent spell to take care of the talking, and walla no signal.

Oh by the powers. Like no one would notice the bard is always singing when these things happens? And let's not forget Metamagic has, you know, costs involved. But no. Let's pretend Psi is balanced. It never has been before..

I never said it was balanced I said"really not overpowered" Though am rethinking that. This no display thing seems like the most untested thing about them, as a system. I didn't say that wizards and bards could do it as well as the psion, but that they could do it. With bards it takes a feat to cover up the casting, with wizards it takes a feat or magic item, and an illusion spell with a longer duration than concentration. So the wizard would need to use something other than
silent image. The psion has a skill that he was most likely going to purchase anyway.

lance wrote: I never said it was balanced I said"really not overpowered" Though am rethinking that. This no display thing seems like the most untested thing about them, as a system. I didn't say that wizards and bards could do it as well as the psion, but that they could do it. With bards it takes a feat to cover up the casting, with wizards it takes a feat or magic item, and an illusion spell with a longer duration than concentration. So the wizard would need to use something other than
silent image. The psion has a skill that he was most likely going to purchase anyway.

If they're not actually overpowered, they'd be balanced. Wonderful thing, the English language. And yes, the no-detection is the least tested, but then again, there's a host of other problems. Like, you know, blasting and healing.

Kuja wrote:

lance wrote:A Wizard could do all that except for it being undetectable. This is something I didn't take that part into account. Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks.

One Detect Magic later, the ruse is blown wide open, even assuming all Spot checks fail. By the time a psion's work takes effect, it's already too late.

No, that will just show that an adventurer who are notorious for having magic items and protections, has :Gasp: things that radiate magical auras.

A wizard can cast silent image around himself to make it look like he isn't moving and use silent spell to take care of the talking, and walla no signal.

Which takes two spells instead of one, a feat, and the sacrifice of a higher-level spellslot to use the feat. That versus one Concentraction check. Are you HONESTLY comparing these?

No, it requires a slot or a magic item, and 2 spells. And yes these things are very comparable, the psion is better at casting things sneakily, no question. most everybody else can do it reasonable

Like rendering the cheif melee combatant useless with a will save is anything special.

For 15 fucking rounds? At level SIX?! Is that a fucking joke? I'll check my player's handbook but I'm pretty damn sure no spellcaster can duplicate a feat like that.

How the fuck did he get an odd duration?What power did he use? Deep slumber, Hold Person, and depending if your on a cliff Suggestion are the closest I got.

lance wrote:

Kuja wrote:

lance wrote:A Wizard could do all that except for it being undetectable. This is something I didn't take that part into account. Bards have the disguise spell feat which disquises your casting into a performance, versus the onlookers spot checks.

One Detect Magic later, the ruse is blown wide open, even assuming all Spot checks fail. By the time a psion's work takes effect, it's already too late.

No, that will just show that an adventurer who are notorious for having magic items and protections, has :Gasp: things that radiate magical auras.

Wrong. It will show spellcasting and active spells.

lance wrote:No, that will just show that an adventurer who are notorious for having magic items and protections, has :Gasp: things that radiate magical auras.

Reread the description of Detect Magic. The spell is much more refined than 'Ooh, there's magic here.' And you dodge my point, which is that spellcasters actually have to put in effort to go unrecognized, whereas psions have it easy.

No, it requires a slot or a magic item, and 2 spells. And yes these things are very comparable, the psion is better at casting things sneakily, no question. most everybody else can do it reasonable

That's why there is NO comparison, jackass. Using up two of your precious spells for the day, taking a feat that can never be changed later and forces you to pay a price to use it, and/or paying out the wazoo or risking your life for a magic item vs a single Concentration check with no real penalty if you fail it? If you think the two situations are comparable, you're a fucking idiot.

How the fuck did he get an odd duration?What power did he use? Deep slumber, Hold Person, and depending if your on a cliff Suggestion are the closest I got.

Hell if I know. I don't own the Psionics HB and haven't read it in a long time. It had somthing to do with his concentration, that's all I remember.

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote: I never said it was balanced I said"really not overpowered" Though am rethinking that. This no display thing seems like the most untested thing about them, as a system. I didn't say that wizards and bards could do it as well as the psion, but that they could do it. With bards it takes a feat to cover up the casting, with wizards it takes a feat or magic item, and an illusion spell with a longer duration than concentration. So the wizard would need to use something other than
silent image. The psion has a skill that he was most likely going to purchase anyway.

If they're not actually overpowered, they'd be balanced. Wonderful thing, the English language. And yes, the no-detection is the least tested, but then again, there's a host of other problems.

No, they could be weak, or none of the classes are balanced? If the classes can be ranked in order of power then they are not balanced.

Like,you know, blasting and healing.

Kinda like druids, wizard, cleric, bard, wujen, shugenja, sorcerors, favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, and archivist. Wow, and these people can use their healing abilities on some one else.

Imperial Overlord wrote:

lance wrote:

Kuja wrote: One Detect Magic later, the ruse is blown wide open, even assuming all Spot checks fail. By the time a psion's work takes effect, it's already too late.

No, that will just show that an adventurer who are notorious for having magic items and protections, has :Gasp: things that radiate magical auras.

Wrong. It will show spellcasting and active spells.

Yes, and the number, and the school. Not what the fucking spell is.

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote: I never said it was balanced I said"really not overpowered" Though am rethinking that. This no display thing seems like the most untested thing about them, as a system. I didn't say that wizards and bards could do it as well as the psion, but that they could do it. With bards it takes a feat to cover up the casting, with wizards it takes a feat or magic item, and an illusion spell with a longer duration than concentration. So the wizard would need to use something other than
silent image. The psion has a skill that he was most likely going to purchase anyway.

If they're not actually overpowered, they'd be balanced. Wonderful thing, the English language. And yes, the no-detection is the least tested, but then again, there's a host of other problems.

No, they could be weak, or none of the classes are balanced? If the classes can be ranked in order of power then they are not balanced.

The Psion is clearly above the first-string classes. We will not delve into the poor balancing of second-string(Complete-series) classes in this thread.

Like,you know, blasting and healing.

Kinda like druids, wizard, cleric, bard, wujen, shugenja, sorcerors, favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, and archivist. Wow, and these people can use their healing abilities on some one else.

First, let's remove all the second-string classes. So I'm gonna ask where Arcanes can heal, outside of the Complete series.

Great, another 'magic is overpowered/underpowered/not how *I* like it thread.

I, as a Dungeon Master and as player, have had absolutely no problem controlling, entertaining, playing or challenging ANY spellcaster or spellcaster style (i.e Psionics) class, period.

If you can't as a Dungeon Master, or as a player, then that's YOUR issue, not the rules.

Oh, and I've seen 6th level Monks trash entire parties of 6th level characters, so don't bitch about Psychic Warriors.
(End of Rant)

As anyone checked out Magic of Incarnum? That's an idea with potential.

Solauren wrote:Great, another 'magic is overpowered/underpowered/not how *I* like it thread.

I, as a Dungeon Master and as player, have had absolutely no problem controlling, entertaining, playing or challenging ANY spellcaster or spellcaster style (i.e Psionics) class, period.

If you can't as a Dungeon Master, or as a player, then that's YOUR issue, not the rules.

Oh, and I've seen 6th level Monks trash entire parties of 6th level characters, so don't bitch about Psychic Warriors.
(End of Rant)

Monks are definately freakin' uber. Monk prestidge classes are scarily over the top.

As anyone checked out Magic of Incarnum? That's an idea with potential.

Keep wavering on buying it. It's definately an interesting idea....

Kuja wrote: That's why there is NO comparison, jackass. Using up two of your precious spells for the day, taking a feat that can never be changed later and forces you to pay a price to use it, and/or paying out the wazoo or risking your life for a magic item vs a single Concentration check with no real penalty if you fail it? If you think the two situations are comparable, you're a fucking idiot.

Yes, they are comparable you ignorant fuck. The psion is better
at it, and gets it for less resources, can do it more often, and a lot of other shit. And the item costs 3k, hardly a fortion.

Hell if I know. I don't own the Psionics HB and haven't read it in a long time. It had somthing to do with his concentration, that's all I remember.

Okay.

lance wrote: Yes, they are comparable you ignorant fuck. The psion is better at it, and gets it for less resources, can do it more often, and a lot of other shit. And the item costs 3k, hardly a fortion.

That's my fucking point, retard. Giving one class every concievable advantage without any kind of penalty is making it fucking broken. Are you comprehending this?

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote: If they're not actually overpowered, they'd be balanced. Wonderful thing, the English language. And yes, the no-detection is the least tested, but then again, there's a host of other problems.

No, they could be weak, or none of the classes are balanced? If the classes can be ranked in order of power then they are not balanced.

The Psion is clearly above the first-string classes. We will not delve into the poor balancing of second-string(Complete-series) classes in this thread.

Like,you know, blasting and healing.

Kinda like druids, wizard, cleric, bard, wujen, shugenja, sorcerors, favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, and archivist. Wow, and these people can use their healing abilities on some one else.

First, let's remove all the second-string classes. So I'm gonna ask where Arcanes can heal, outside of the Complete series.

Several summon monster spells, gate, polymorph. Hey, I in no way said they were good at it. Thier is also a spell from the planar hand book that takes 2 rounds to cast and heals 3d6 for a third level spell, and the cures bards spell list.