HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

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HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Ars wrote:
Confirming our earlier reports, some owners of HD television sets will not be able to see HD DVD and Blu-ray programming in its full glory, as the Advanced Access Content System (AACS) used by both next-gen formats has been modified to require picture degredation over analog connections.

As a result, the signal sent through analog connections will be constrained to 960x540, rather than the 1920x1080 that both Blu-ray and HD DVD are capable of.

According to the consortium backing AACS, the change is necessary because of—you guessed it—piracy.
The fear is that hordes of otherwise law-abiding citizens will take advange of analog video connections to record full-resolution copies of movies from HD DVD and Blu-ray discs and subsequently distribute them via peer-to-peer networks and other nefarious means.
To keep that from happening, any video signal that doesn't travel over a protected input (such as HDMI) will be degraded.

The AACS specification will now contain a new digital flag called the Image Constraint Token. At the discretion of the content producer, the ICT can be set to require next-gen optical players to degrade the video over analog connections. If ICT is turned off, then no downsampling will occur.

At 960x540, degraded video will still look better than standard DVDs, which generally are encoded at 720x480.
However, owners of analog 720p HD sets (and they are out there) will be getting short shrift, as their TVs are capable of 1280x720 display.

AACS is attempting to throw them a bone, as the degraded signal will then be "up converted" to 1280x720. The ultimate result will be a picture that fills the screen, but doesn't give the consumer what he or she paid for in terms of the quality.

Unlike Managed Copy, which is a mandatory part of AACS for both platforms, ICT usage will be left up to the choice of the individual studios.

So far, none of them have said they will be requiring its use for their discs. However, Disney, Warner Home Video, Paramount, and NBC Universal are considered likely candidates to require ICT.
Consumer electronics manufacturers have been unenthusiastic about supporting ITC, but will have to incorporate it into their players if they want them certified to play next-generation optical disc content.

As Ken wrote last summer, "the revolution will be televised, only it won't be in HD unless your pockets have paid for recent display technology designed with the future in mind." That future, in case you've forgotten, involves the motion picture and music industries being able to exercise maximum control over what you watch, how you watch, and when you watch it.
In the past couple of months we've seen legislation introduced to close the so-called "analog hole," resurrect the broadcast flag for television and HD radio, and ultimately limit the functionality of consumer electronics to "customary historic uses."
All this is in the guise of fighting piracy and keeping artists from starving. But the truth of the matter is that our "friends" at the RIAA and MPAA want to keep themselves at the helm of the USS Content at all costs, even if it means trampling their customers.
At least there will be an improved res on some HD analog screens, but this really does suck for anyone with an analog screen, at the very least this could have been announced earlier so as to warn customers that everyone of them would be treated as a criminal.
So far, none of them have said they will be requiring its use for their discs. However, Disney, Warner Home Video, Paramount, and NBC Universal are considered likely candidates to require ICT.
I hope that most of the studios really do pass on this, but my natural pessimism tells me otherwise.
Still, I should be grateful that I don't even have a HD display let alone an analog one, although this could cause some serious consumer issues from anyone told that their new tv's would support the new high definition dvds coming out soon :roll: .
At 960x540, degraded video will still look better than standard DVDs, which generally are encoded at 720x480.
Frankly when I read this, I was suprised that non "protected"/digital set's will even be allowed to play at a higher resolution at all.
Is there anyone here with an analog HD display, out of curiosity? just what percentage of displays sold so far are still analogs?
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Post by theski »

A much greater number of HDTVs use the RGB Component connection then the Digital/HDMI
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I would assume the digital connections would be more popular now or increase in popularity given the connections are ever more common with PC monitors too. The old RGB and SCART connections should be phased out soon enough as the main connector socket. This is just another reason why it pays to wait it out and then pick the technology that gets you more bang for your buck (just think of all those plasma screen owners whose sets will be noticeably crap within 5 years).
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Post by Arrow »

IIRC, users with DVI connectors are also out of luck, because they don't carry the DRM flags. Only systems with HDMI connections will be able to show the material in its full visual glory.
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Post by theski »

Arrow wrote:IIRC, users with DVI connectors are also out of luck, because they don't carry the DRM flags. Only systems with HDMI connections will be able to show the material in its full visual glory.
Fuckers.... It amazes me that people just dont toss there TVs out the window... all in the name of Copyright security..
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Re: HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

DEATH wrote: To keep that from happening, any video signal that doesn't travel over a protected input (such as HDMI) will be degraded.
I wonder how long would it be before someone invents a plug that would make the player think it is transmitting on HDMI, but isn't - it is converted into analogue right before it hits the TV.
At 960x540, degraded video will still look better than standard DVDs, which generally are encoded at 720x480.
<Sarcasm>Oh, cool ... the downsampling would ensure it is now the perfect size for uploading via BT! I guess that means I can save myself the effort of resizing to a smaller (smaller file and not that many people have 1920 pixel wide monitors) format before letting the latest movie on the Internet...</Sarcasm>
At least there will be an improved res on some HD analog screens, but this really does suck for anyone with an analog screen, at the very least this could have been announced earlier so as to warn customers that everyone of them would be treated as a criminal.
Don't be so sure. We are reducing the image, and then interpolating it here to a ratio that does not divide evenly (4/3). You might be better off just viewing it at 960.
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Re: HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

Post by Arrow »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:I wonder how long would it be before someone invents a plug that would make the player think it is transmitting on HDMI, but isn't - it is converted into analogue right before it hits the TV.
That should be very easy to do. Its a digital stream, you only need to figure out what bits you want, forward it to a DVI port or to a DAC for the component jacks, and you're pretty much done.

Such a system would be illegal, and since requires an actually, physical converter box, hard to get a hold of. But I can see some enterprising folks with HTPCs getting around DRM...
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Re: HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

Post by Uraniun235 »

Arrow wrote:Such a system would be illegal, and since requires an actually, physical converter box, hard to get a hold of. But I can see some enterprising folks with HTPCs getting around DRM...
Only illegal in the US, right? I'm sure our Canadian friends would be happy to ship them down south and make a tidy profit.
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Re: HD DVD, Blu-ray content to be degraded for analog sets

Post by Arrow »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Arrow wrote:Such a system would be illegal, and since requires an actually, physical converter box, hard to get a hold of. But I can see some enterprising folks with HTPCs getting around DRM...
Only illegal in the US, right? I'm sure our Canadian friends would be happy to ship them down south and make a tidy profit.
Yeah, I'm not sure about non-US copyright laws, but I think the Canadians can get away with it.
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Post by andrewgpaul »

Is this different to the existing HDCP requirement for 'HD-ready'-branded TVs in the UK/Europe?

pretty much all the 'HD-ready'-labeled sets I've seen for sale in the shop I work in have an HDMI (in fact, the new Toshiba set, the one my parents just got, has 2) port, except for the cheapo ones.
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Post by Beowulf »

The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
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Post by Arrow »

Beowulf wrote:The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
Pretty much every HDTV I know of takes the component signal and digitizes it before it does anything to the signal, such as scaling the video to the TV's native resolution. The ADCs for the component jacks used by TVs and DACs for component jacks used DVD players and HD Decoders/PVRs already exist and are standard equipment.
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Post by Darth Wong »

People are going to buy these expensive Blu-ray DVD/HD DVD players, expensive Blu-ray/HD DVD movies, wonder about the standards confusion, try to play them in regular TVs or existing HDTV sets, and then tell all their friends that you can barely tell the difference between regular DVD and HD-DVD so it's a colossal waste of time. And really, unless they're willing to throw out half of their home entertainment systems and start over, they'd be right. This bullshit is simply making Blu-Ray/HD DVD into a highly unattractive product.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

That issue is addressed on some DVD-phile websites. I stumbled across a thread at one board discussing what the next gen HD media formats would do to the minds of the public at large. Many noted that those who have a huge DVd collection would most likely keep it and do with the fact that the pricier, but better built DVD players will up-convert the image on HD screens from normal DVDs so it's still better quality, just not HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Only the real movie maniacs will throw all their DVDs out and start anew, which could costs thousands of dollars for a decent sized collection.

And then what do they do 5 more years down the line whenan even better format comes out? This is why it is pure idiocy to jump in and keep up with new technology. The fools that went for Betamax found that out, even if it was a better product. The people who have plasma TVs today will find that out. I expect the same will happen with HD media formats too, as it happened with Mini-Disc and the Philips CD-i.
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Post by Arrow »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:And then what do they do 5 more years down the line whenan even better format comes out? This is why it is pure idiocy to jump in and keep up with new technology. The fools that went for Betamax found that out, even if it was a better product. The people who have plasma TVs today will find that out. I expect the same will happen with HD media formats too, as it happened with Mini-Disc and the Philips CD-i.
A new format following HD-DVD/Blu-ray doesn't scare me as much as the possibility Hollywood decides HDMI/HDCP isn't good enough and comes up with some new abomination. I already have to replace my DVR (which Comcast currently provides, but its a POS), audio receiver, and my DVD player so I can view HDCP protected content (only my TV has HDCP support). That's at least a good $2000 for decent equipment. Now if some suit three years down the line decides to fuck my consumer rights even harder up the ass, I'll have to replace all of the equipment again, including the TV this time, costing probably another $4000 to $5000.

With a new format, you should be able to find a combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray/New Format player, for only a few hundred for a decent box.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

This is why HD TV is only coming out this year in the UK to broadcast. It's simply too much of a clusterfuck with all these different formats and now the idea of DRM being plugged into bloody TV broadcasts. The public can only just tell RGB plugs from SCART half the time and now has DVD. Bringing in a HDTV with a dozen sockets that may not work along with TWO new types of DVD is going to get a lot of pissed off customers I reckon.
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Post by Beowulf »

Arrow wrote:
Beowulf wrote:The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
Pretty much every HDTV I know of takes the component signal and digitizes it before it does anything to the signal, such as scaling the video to the TV's native resolution. The ADCs for the component jacks used by TVs and DACs for component jacks used DVD players and HD Decoders/PVRs already exist and are standard equipment.
Not one that you could put into a computer so that you can actually record the video.
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Post by Xon »

The sad part is TV crts SUCK SHIT compared to PC monitors. They just dont have the physical resolution that PC monitors do nor the preformance.

Plus the extra cost is mindblowing( and obviously budget blowing :P)
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Post by Arrow »

Beowulf wrote:Not one that you could put into a computer so that you can actually record the video.
Maybe I'm having a brain fart here, but I don't see how that relates to the discussion, especially concerning a stand-alone set-top-box that strips the HDCP bits out of the stream.
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Post by phongn »

Beowulf wrote:The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
Well, the DeckLink SP is only a mere $600 :P
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Post by Arrow »

phongn wrote:
Beowulf wrote:The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
Well, the DeckLink SP is only a mere $600 :P
That's a big-ass breakout cable! Strip off everything but the component parts, and you're probably looking at under half the price.
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Post by theski »

ggs wrote:The sad part is TV crts SUCK SHIT compared to PC monitors. They just dont have the physical resolution that PC monitors do nor the preformance.

Plus the extra cost is mindblowing( and obviously budget blowing :P)
WRONG..... try finding a 34inch computer CRT hdtv for $1000 .. both Panasonic and Sony make one...
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Post by phongn »

Arrow wrote:That's a big-ass breakout cable! Strip off everything but the component parts, and you're probably looking at under half the price.
Probably, but there's virtually no market for "mere" component I/O. The DeckLink series is really designed for 10-bit SDI I/O at SD resolutions.
theski wrote:WRONG..... try finding a 34inch computer CRT hdtv for $1000 .. both Panasonic and Sony make one...
:?: AFAIK, Sony discontinued their computer CRT line some time ago. If you're referring to their 34" HDTV CRTs, that's an entirely different product.
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Post by Beowulf »

phongn wrote:
Beowulf wrote:The problem: No one makes anything that takes component video signals and digitizes them, that don't cost more than my entire current computer system.
Well, the DeckLink SP is only a mere $600 :P
Decklink HD you mean. The Decklink SP doesn't have HD connectivity. So who would be buying a $600 capture card to pirate DVDs for other people? This sort of thing is definitely not in the realm of something a home user would have in their computer. It's more than the graphics card in my computer cost when released, and it's got a fairly dubious amount of usefulness...

Locking down the component outputs is completely asinine.
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Post by phongn »

Beowulf wrote:Decklink HD you mean. The Decklink SP doesn't have HD connectivity. So who would be buying a $600 capture card to pirate DVDs for other people? This sort of thing is definitely not in the realm of something a home user would have in their computer. It's more than the graphics card in my computer cost when released, and it's got a fairly dubious amount of usefulness...
D'oh, I misread you - I saw "composite" and forgot you also would want to capture at greater than SD resolutions.

It is rather asinine, though - you're right, HD analog capture is well beyond the means of most people.
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