StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I've been playing through Tiberian Dawn (the original) lately, and I've been debating whether or not to move to Red Alert or Tiberian Sun from here.

Red Alert is cool, but it is forever tainted by those goddamn "infiltrate and fight your way through the building" missions.

Tiberian Sun, on the other hand... TS is weird. On the one hand, it had a really cool (and dark) atmosphere to it, I enjoyed the storyline, and at the very least you had to give the designers credit for trying something different with the voxels and the deformable terrain.

At the same time, TS is similarly tainted by said deformable terrain (what the game really needed was a bulldozing unit so that you couldn't completely fuck your opponent's ability to build a base) as well as the goddamn hunter/killer drones (most retarded concept ever). But the drones don't really come up in single-player anyway.

I always thought it amusing that, at least according to the Rules.ini file, the old Mammoth Tanks you acquire in one Nod mission were technically more efficient than the Titans. (lol HAB)

What do you guys think? I'm actually looking for more of a discussion about TS than a comparison with RA.

TS was indeed an awesome game, and I always prefered it over RA, although my experience over the latter is somewhat limited. The missions during the later part of the expansion (the CABAL incident) are some of my favorite RTS levels ever. Still, though the storyline was pretty good in the base game, it was rather confusing. There seem to be several portions that are missing (like how did the female NOD commander get captured?) and the alternate continuties are easy to mix up.

Nevertheless, I really liked the gameplay, perhaps even a bit more than Starcraft's (if only a bit). There were some really unbalanced units though, as you said.

Having not yet played Tiberian Dawn or RA1, I can't really draw comparisons between them and their sequals. However, I did greatly enjoy both Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2.

Most of the missions in RA2 are simply stuff like "blow up building x" or "destroy all the Soviets/Americans." There's the occasional "sneak through enemy territory and blow up target y" but they're the exception, not the rule. The same goes for TS.

As for the deformable terrain, it's never been a big problem for me in Tiberian Sun. You can change the terrain around, but it takes something really powerful, like the ion cannon or the multi-missile. Paving the land, I think, keeps it from getting deformed.

Edit: Noble Ire, I think you may be missing a few cut scenes or something. The female Nod commander, Oxanna, was captured along with Slavik when GDI tricked Nod into believing that they had almost finished making a cure for Tiberian infection and they fell into McNeil's trap.

Edit 2: shrank some text because of spoilers.

I found Tiberian Sun painfully slow! Gods, it was like watching paint dry at times. When I dug through the rules file and sped things up in a variety of ways, it became alot better.

I found the cutscenes similarly shitty. I'm sorry, I'll always prefer the methods used in the Red Alert games, and the Firestorm expansion.

Firestorm made everything better. Because it's awesome.

I'm a huge Red Alert fanboy, though, and I adored RA2.

Red alert 2 was pretty sweet. Best games were those with friends, playing by the Gentlemen's Rules; Iron Curtain and Chronosphere are cool, but no using Nukes or Weather Control devices. Those were indeed fun games.

Edit: Noble Ire, I think you may be missing a few cut scenes or something. The female Nod commander, Oxanna, was captured along with Slavik when GDI tricked Nod into believing that they had almost finished making a cure for Tiberian infection and they fell into McNeil's trap.

Damn, my copy must have been missing a few levels or something. I don't remember that plot line at all. In mine, it went from the Scrin fighter mission right to the GDI team capturing Oxxana (or something like that).

SirNitram wrote:I found the cutscenes similarly shitty. I'm sorry, I'll always prefer the methods used in the Red Alert games, and the Firestorm expansion.

Firestorm made everything better. Because it's awesome.

Really? Personally, while I liked RA2 better, I always prefered TS's cutscences myself. This is largely be due to James Earl Jones and Frank Zagarino (the guy who played Slavik). But there are other reasons, too, like how over the top TS sometimes went, e.g. "Today's Execution" being part of Nod's TV news show and some of the dialoge, "CABAL, define favorable outcome..."

The cutscenes in Firestorm are much better, though, you'll get no arguement from me in that. Zagarino was really in top form there. Christ, but Slavik was such a fucking cool villian. I wish I'd remembered him when the "most ept bad guys" thread was still active.

Overall, though, I didn't enjoy Firestorm as much as TS. Most of the new units were pretty worthless, but the campaigns had levels to try and make them useful, which I usually found either boring or annoying. And there was so much crap added to the landscape to try and reflect that everything was getting more mutated by tiberium that it looked absurd, IMHO.

I don't know, TS was the first C&C game I played online, and it was something pretty cool, even though the friend I played with, we never seemed to finish a game. We always spent like 5 hours turterling up and never finished. I found that balance started to tip towards the GDI when you took out superweapons. I mean, they had some nice tower extentions, plus the firewall, you could take out the NOD lasers pretty easily with just a few hits from something long ranged. The Distributor rush seemed pretty easy and powerful to pull off. I still liked those little driods you could attach to an enemy vehicle. I loved to used it on their mining fields. I'd loiter the whole feild with the little bugs.

Noble Ire wrote:

Edit: Noble Ire, I think you may be missing a few cut scenes or something. The female Nod commander, Oxanna, was captured along with Slavik when GDI tricked Nod into believing that they had almost finished making a cure for Tiberian infection and they fell into McNeil's trap.

Damn, my copy must have been missing a few levels or something. I don't remember that plot line at all. In mine, it went from the Scrin fighter mission right to the GDI team capturing Oxxana (or something like that).

The Scrin fighter mission? Which one was that exactly? The one where you need to blow up the Mammoth II? (I think that one came after the rescue Oxanna mission, actually)

Did you do the mission where you had to steal a GDI base and use their units to attack the mutants?

Trogdor wrote:

SirNitram wrote:I found the cutscenes similarly shitty. I'm sorry, I'll always prefer the methods used in the Red Alert games, and the Firestorm expansion.

Firestorm made everything better. Because it's awesome.

Really? Personally, while I liked RA2 better, I always prefered TS's cutscences myself. This is largely be due to James Earl Jones and Frank Zagarino (the guy who played Slavik). But there are other reasons, too, like how over the top TS sometimes went, e.g. "Today's Execution" being part of Nod's TV news show and some of the dialoge, "CABAL, define favorable outcome..."

I actually found JEJ stale in many of his scenes, though it was nice seeing him there. ANd I fully agree with Slavik being an awesome villain! However, the 'Let's watch this commander' style turned me off bigtime compared to the 'briefings' you got in every other venue.

And personally, I loved CABAL's lines.

'Define favourable outcome.' 'They all die.'

'Intruders detected. Probably objective is rescue of mutant prisoners.... Kill All Prisoners.'

The cutscenes in Firestorm are much better, though, you'll get no arguement from me in that. Zagarino was really in top form there. Christ, but Slavik was such a fucking cool villian. I wish I'd remembered him when the "most ept bad guys" thread was still active.

Slavik owned hardcore in Firestorm. I really liked him, and his plans were executed well and intelligently.

Overall, though, I didn't enjoy Firestorm as much as TS. Most of the new units were pretty worthless, but the campaigns had levels to try and make them useful, which I usually found either boring or annoying. And there was so much crap added to the landscape to try and reflect that everything was getting more mutated by tiberium that it looked absurd, IMHO.

Absurdity is something I've come to expect and embrace from C&C. Invisible tanks, giant ants, lightning cannons, jellyfish with toxic farts, mind-controlled squid, and finally, a Terrorist organization with centralized operations lasting more than ten seconds.

I never played Firestorm. Guess I missed out. Slavik was awesome.

Kane lives in death!

SirNitram wrote:I actually found JEJ stale in many of his scenes, though it was nice seeing him there. ANd I fully agree with Slavik being an awesome villain! However, the 'Let's watch this commander' style turned me off bigtime compared to the 'briefings' you got in every other venue.

And personally, I loved CABAL's lines.

'Define favourable outcome.' 'They all die.'

'Intruders detected. Probably objective is rescue of mutant prisoners.... Kill All Prisoners.'

JEJ wasn't great the whole time, but he had some really good moments, IMO. "Commander, if Slavik continues to gain influence, you will become usless to us, and useless things have a tendancy to...disappear."

CABAL did indeed have some great lines. "Listen to the screams, human. That is the sound of your extinction."

On Hammerfest base: "The technology is without flaw. The human element is, as always, riddled with imperfections."

"I am the only salvation for the continued supremacy of Nod!"

EDIT: On the fact that they didn't brief but just had you watch a little scene, I'll admit that wasn't a good idea. It didn't bug me when I played TS because it was my first RTS game, so I didn't have anything to compare it to, though.

Slavik owned hardcore in Firestorm. I really liked him, and his plans were executed well and intelligently.

Very true. And any proper sequal (unlikely, I know) would have to contain either General Cortez getting killed by Nod, or Dr. Boudreau getting killed or kidnapped. Because Cortez dissed Slavik, and you don't diss Anton Slavik and get away with it.

Absurdity is something I've come to expect and embrace from C&C. Invisible tanks, giant ants, lightning cannons, jellyfish with toxic farts, mind-controlled squid, and finally, a Terrorist organization with centralized operations lasting more than ten seconds.

Don't forget time travel, mind control, nukes that will fail to level a building at ground zero, and three guys in tesla powered suits turning the Eiffle tower into a giant tesla coil of death (TM)

You're right, of course, but I never did like the change of the terrain in Firestorm. It just looked ugly to me. I might've forgive Firestorm if it had left Nod use the Reaper, but, alas, only CABAL got to use it in the campaigns.

The Scrin fighter mission? Which one was that exactly? The one where you need to blow up the Mammoth II? (I think that one came after the rescue Oxanna mission, actually)

Did you do the mission where you had to steal a GDI base and use their units to attack the mutants?

No, it was a different one. Might have been in the GDI campaign actually, I may have them mixed up.

However, I do remember the meeting where you have to kill the mutants with GDI tech. I guess I might have just forgotten the transition into the Oxanna level.

You're right, of course, but I never did like the change of the terrain in Firestorm. It just looked ugly to me. I might've forgive Firestorm if it had left Nod use the Reaper, but, alas, only CABAL got to use it in the campaigns.

CABAL did get some pretty awesome units. I remember the core defender from the final mission; when that thing unfurls and begins to plod toward your base was one of the few "holy shit!" moments I've had playing an RTS. I can still remember throwing everything I had at it in wave after wave only to watch it bat each onslaught aside.

Good stuff.

Noble Ire wrote:

The Scrin fighter mission? Which one was that exactly? The one where you need to blow up the Mammoth II? (I think that one came after the rescue Oxanna mission, actually)

Did you do the mission where you had to steal a GDI base and use their units to attack the mutants?

No, it was a different one. Might have been in the GDI campaign actually, I may have them mixed up.

However, I do remember the meeting where you have to kill the mutants with GDI tech. I guess I might have just forgotten the transition into the Oxanna level.

It's actually pretty abrupt. Without the cutscences it could easily be a "wtf?" moment.You enlist the mutants' help in blowing up the facility where GDI is supposedly making an antidote for Tiberian contamination and everything seems okay through the whole mission. The mutants realize you tricked them, but you can kill them pretty easy. You blow up the facility, get the mission accomplished message, and then the next cutscene shows the Kodiak and the Montaunk side by side, and McNeil reveals that it was a trap and has them taken away.

CABAL did get some pretty awesome units. I remember the core defender from the final mission; when that thing unfurls and begins to plod toward your base was one of the few "holy shit!" moments I've had playing an RTS. I can still remember throwing everything I had at it in wave after wave only to watch it bat each onslaught aside.

Good stuff.

I actually expected him to pull something really evil when you brought down the firestorm wall, so I had a ton of banshee fighters ready. Blew up the core before the defender ever got near me.

TS was a better game than RA1, if slower. RA2 is a better game than TS, but TS has a great place in my heart. It looked and felt cool, and was long anticipated. NOD and GDI units had great style, and many cool toys (Firestorm Wall!).

Ever see a flight of 12 enemy banshees go down like bricks against your force wall? Or 20 enemy titans and a Mammoth go up in flames with a patch of blue tiberium you shot with an artillery? That's when life is good.

My biggest problem with Tiberian Sun is that it teased. Constantly. Scrin fighters. The starship Kane had. Constant hints dropped that more was coming. Earth being Tiberian-formed. And no sign that it'll ever be followed up on.

SirNitram wrote:My biggest problem with Tiberian Sun is that it teased. Constantly. Scrin fighters. The starship Kane had. Constant hints dropped that more was coming. Earth being Tiberian-formed. And no sign that it'll ever be followed up on.

Blame EA for shutting down Westwood.

Noble Ire wrote:CABAL did get some pretty awesome units. I remember the core defender from the final mission; when that thing unfurls and begins to plod toward your base was one of the few "holy shit!" moments I've had playing an RTS. I can still remember throwing everything I had at it in wave after wave only to watch it bat each onslaught aside.

Good stuff.

My one "holy shit" moment came to me in RA2. I don't know why, but the FUCKING HUGE yuri base got on my nerves really quickly. It took me a while, but I figured out the trick was to build up the Solviet base strong so you could launch Kirvo's from the Solviet base and not even worry about the allied base.

SirNitram wrote:My biggest problem with Tiberian Sun is that it teased. Constantly. Scrin fighters. The starship Kane had. Constant hints dropped that more was coming. Earth being Tiberian-formed. And no sign that it'll ever be followed up on.

I read something a long while back about them attempting to bring back the Tiberian system. Actually they were trying to merge all three timelines, RA1->RA2->Generals->Tiberian Dawn->Tiberian Sun->???

But last I heard of the idea was that RA3 was going to sort of cut Generals out. That was quite a while ago. I'll see if I can dig up the article on it, as it wasn't on the WW or EA site. It would be interesting to connect at least the two right? Plus it would mean an extention on the TS series. Saddly, it might just be some fan's extravigant imagination.

I never bothered with the campaigns for TS. I was having too much fun doing multiplayer at college. There actually was a mod with a bulldozer, to prevent the utter annoyance of being unable to build something due to a hill, as well as to dig trenches, which were useful for slowing units down right as they entered artillery range.


Then there was the fun of the mod with the anti-matter plant. Produced an insane amount of energy, and was heavily armored (one survived three or four simultaneous ion cannon strikes), but if it was taken out, it took out everything in a huge blast radius.

Naquitis wrote:I read something a long while back about them attempting to bring back the Tiberian system. Actually they were trying to merge all three timelines, RA1->RA2->Generals->Tiberian Dawn->Tiberian Sun->???

But last I heard of the idea was that RA3 was going to sort of cut Generals out. That was quite a while ago. I'll see if I can dig up the article on it, as it wasn't on the WW or EA site. It would be interesting to connect at least the two right? Plus it would mean an extention on the TS series. Saddly, it might just be some fan's extravigant imagination.

I've heard that Kane was in RA1, and was basically Stalin's power behind the throne, but never having played RA1, I can't say if this is true or not. If it is true, it would link the RA games to the Tiberian ones.

It doesn't change the fact that TS left a lot of questions unanswered, mostly about the aliens, and there was never a sequal to answer these questions.

Trogdor wrote:I've heard that Kane was in RA1, and was basically Stalin's power behind the throne, but never having played RA1, I can't say if this is true or not. If it is true, it would link the RA games to the Tiberian ones.

Kane is indeed in RA1; he appears most prominently in the Soviet ending, where the Brotherhood takes control via serial assassination. It ends with Kane addressing the camera.

'The future? Let me tell you something about the future, comrade General.

I am the future.'

SirNitram wrote:

Trogdor wrote:I've heard that Kane was in RA1, and was basically Stalin's power behind the throne, but never having played RA1, I can't say if this is true or not. If it is true, it would link the RA games to the Tiberian ones.

Kane is indeed in RA1; he appears most prominently in the Soviet ending, where the Brotherhood takes control via serial assassination. It ends with Kane addressing the camera.

'The future? Let me tell you something about the future, comrade General.

I am the future.'

Sweet...but the good guy ending's always the official one in C&C games.

Trogdor wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Trogdor wrote:I've heard that Kane was in RA1, and was basically Stalin's power behind the throne, but never having played RA1, I can't say if this is true or not. If it is true, it would link the RA games to the Tiberian ones.

Kane is indeed in RA1; he appears most prominently in the Soviet ending, where the Brotherhood takes control via serial assassination. It ends with Kane addressing the camera.

'The future? Let me tell you something about the future, comrade General.

I am the future.'

Sweet...but the good guy ending's always the official one in C&C games.

Let's face it, would you want to go up against the Brotherhood Of Nod with the full industrial might of Eurasia behind it?

SirNitram wrote:Let's face it, would you want to go up against the Brotherhood Of Nod with the full industrial might of Eurasia behind it?

No, I would, however, want to play as the Brotherhood of Nod with the full industrial might of Eurasia behind it.

Generals is a completely different timeline from RA1/RA2/TD/TS. In fact, it takes place at about the same time period as Tiberian Dawn, which means they really can't be the same timeline.