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I'm just at the part where I have to infiltrate the Shagohod hangar and set C3 on the fuel tanks to blow the whole place sky high. Needless to say, I'm sure something will happen that will ensure Shagohod survives this plan and then I'll have to destroy it with an entirely unrealistic amount of PG-7V grenades.

Anyway, thoughts on the game so far:

- the Soviet emphasis is nice, but I wish they would've gotten it right. There's no way five Mi-24s could possibly lift something as huge as Shagohod.

- there's no way there were Mi-24s anywhere near that level of readiness in 1964, if they existed as flying machines at all.

- for a retro-game, why are there still night-vision goggles and more ridiculously, thermal goggles, in 1964? This seemed to be laziness by the developers. Not having them in the game would've made it better all round.

- MGS3 firmly establishes that the Metal Gear's developed by the US (MG Rex, MG Ray) are entirely the product of the Soviets of the 1960s. Sucks to be them. This was hinted at in MGS2, but I had no idea the Colonel on the tanker was being so literal about it. While we're at it, did I mention how jarring it was to see a model of MG Ray in Granin's office? Talk about weird- Shagohod is a believable Soviet war machine, and so is Rex, but Ray?

- "The Boss" thing- she "led us to victory" in WW2? Talk her up a bit, don't you think?

- I miss the Soliton radar. Still, camoflage is a nice touch.

- Is Snake impotent or something? How many times does Eva have to say "fuck me" (in her highly improbable for 1960s Soviet Union underwear) euphemisms before he gets it?

- Revolver Ocelot is an awesome character. Which makes the whole bullshit of MGS2 and the possession by Liquid's arm even more annoying.

- I liked the bit where Sigint (if you ask him) rubbishes the whole idea of a tank with legs as stupid. Nice to know someone in the MG universe is rational.

- The entire Shagohod design stinks to high heaven, even for MG. The effort to make it out to be superior to ICBMs in silos was absurd- requiring a 3-mile long runway to deploy the damn thing kills whatever little utility it has, and them talking about this while in the same breath talking about how it couldn't be spotted by spy satellites- ungh.

- I'm amazed the designers included a park full of "Object 279" heavy tanks at the research facility- I suppose if you're going to have them, there's the place- guess they're wrong about only one tank ever being built though

More to come.

Vympel wrote:I'm just at the part where I have to infiltrate the Shagohod hangar and set C3 on the fuel tanks to blow the whole place sky high. Needless to say, I'm sure something will happen that will ensure Shagohod survives this plan and then I'll have to destroy it with an entirely unrealistic amount of PG-7V grenades.

Anyway, thoughts on the game so far:

- the Soviet emphasis is nice, but I wish they would've gotten it right. There's no way five Mi-24s could possibly lift something as huge as Shagohod.

I'd have to look up the power of those Hinds, but if you must know, the Shagohod's mac weight is just shy of 150 tonnes. I recall many IGN posters going on about how ludicrous it was to have a 100+ tonne hovercraft. I hope they never stumble across the Zebyr class, comrade.

- there's no way there were Mi-24s anywhere near that level of readiness in 1964, if they existed as flying machines at all.

The Mi-24 wasn't even off the drawing board back then. Obviously Col. Volgin's bureau and money made those things happen earlier in this timeline.

- for a retro-game, why are there still night-vision goggles and more ridiculously, thermal goggles, in 1964? This seemed to be laziness by the developers. Not having them in the game would've made it better all round.

Again, Volgin's bureau and Groznygrad permitted such technology to come about earlier. The gameplay value is debateable, but given you notice Skorpions used by the troops on those flying platforms with laser sights (albeit, rather clunky ones), technology is advancing quite well here.

- MGS3 firmly establishes that the Metal Gear's developed by the US (MG Rex, MG Ray) are entirely the product of the Soviets of the 1960s. Sucks to be them. This was hinted at in MGS2, but I had no idea the Colonel on the tanker was being so literal about it. While we're at it, did I mention how jarring it was to see a model of MG Ray in Granin's office? Talk about weird- Shagohod is a believable Soviet war machine, and so is Rex, but Ray?

The RAY model was nothing. Look again. You'll see Jehuty too. It's an in-joke homage if anything, but the plans for REX are clear enough, though likely restricted in technological terms. RAY uses artificial muscle, GPS guidance and one helluva powerful hydrocutter among other things, so it's a way off being made.

- "The Boss" thing- she "led us to victory" in WW2? Talk her up a bit, don't you think?

I expect she did a great many big spec-op missions. Naturally, she didn't win the war for us, but she was a big help with her unit, just as the Commandos and so on would be.

- I miss the Soliton radar. Still, camoflage is a nice touch.

I don't even think soliton waves had been theorised by then.

- Is Snake impotent or something? How many times does Eva have to say "fuck me" (in her highly improbable for 1960s Soviet Union underwear) euphemisms before he gets it?

He's not the most sociable guy. If he's anything like Solid, then women are as much a mystery as anyone else. Remember, he lived for the mission and was a career army man. Solid, when he retired, was living alone in Alaska with wolf-dogs for company. Think Plissken, not Bond.

- Revolver Ocelot is an awesome character. Which makes the whole bullshit of MGS2 and the possession by Liquid's arm even more annoying.

Yes, I agree. The way he got owned at the start by everyone was funny as fuck, but the rookie learns fast. You've not seen the last of him...

- I liked the bit where Sigint (if you ask him) rubbishes the whole idea of a tank with legs as stupid. Nice to know someone in the MG universe is rational.

There are other instances, the new MGS4 trailer clearly shows the Gekkous as being a bit cumbersome, despite their added agility. The Shagohod only uses the "legs" for pulling itself out of bad terrain anyway. The hovercraft propulsion and Archimedes screws make it pretty much a tank with an IRBM attachment. This was all before the whole SSBN wank we have now.

- The entire Shagohod design stinks to high heaven, even for MG. The effort to make it out to be superior to ICBMs in silos was absurd- requiring a 3-mile long runway to deploy the damn thing kills whatever little utility it has, and them talking about this while in the same breath talking about how it couldn't be spotted by spy satellites- ungh.

On the plus side, it's more mobile than moddern land based carriers and can hold its own in a fight. The IRBM is limited, but you don't need the run up for firing it, unless you want ICBM range. The idea is to have a rapidly deployable unit that can hit behind enemy lines and not be a sitting duck. REX is the same, when you get past the fake plan for it being an TMD system.

- I'm amazed the designers included a park full of "Object 279" heavy tanks at the research facility- I suppose if you're going to have them, there's the place- guess they're wrong about only one tank ever being built though

I loved that too. I had to actually look them up, it's been so long since I last saw the single prototype they made.

More to come.

Finish it, NOW!

Great game. Lesse.

Screw the radar. You'd never be able to use it, and the guards actually have some eyesight now. You've got three detectors instead.

The night goggles and IR goggles are no more ridiculous than The Fury's... everything. And he was the most reasonable of the mid-bosses! At least they weighed several KG right?

REX and RAY were developed by the US. The Soviets only had a model that inspired the design of the first Metal Gears in the MSX games which carried small ICBMs or IRBMs. They still had the fault of a very detectable launch signature. Also, Shagohod could be used on long stretches of open field or roads, so that mixes it up a bit better than just big airfields.

The model of RAY is an easter egg, just like how Captain Ivan Raidenovich (Thunder's Bitch is the translation, apparently), isn't a time travelling Raiden who just stepped out of a blue police box.

Oh. And also don't forget that ridiculous Davy Crockett with a multikiloton blast, fired from a helicopter one-handed by Volgin.

Realism in MGS? What's wrong with you people? Has that ever been the case!?

MGS has never been realistic, but it's easier to suspend disbelief when you're going up against something fantastic. When you see Mi-24s lifting a Shagohod, it sets off alarm bells, even for my reduced MGS suspender of disbelief.

I'm playing on normal difficulty- in general, I'm surprised how easy the bosses have been- just like MGS, the fight with Ocelot was the most fun. The most annoying boss fight was The Fear, not because it was difficult, but just because it was tedious. I was surprised how easy it was to kill The End. Normally with MGS, the bosses are hard until you beat them, then you can kill them in your sleep.

Note to self- kill less people in next play through. The stream when I was "fighting" the Sorrow was a bit crowded ...

Will probably be finished the game by tonight (not playing it now, busy).

Vympel wrote:MGS has never been realistic, but it's easier to suspend disbelief when you're going up against something fantastic. When you see Mi-24s lifting a Shagohod, it sets off alarm bells, even for my reduced MGS suspender of disbelief.

I'm playing on normal difficulty- in general, I'm surprised how easy the bosses have been- just like MGS, the fight with Ocelot was the most fun. The most annoying boss fight was The Fear, not because it was difficult, but just because it was tedious. I was surprised how easy it was to kill The End. Normally with MGS, the bosses are hard until you beat them, then you can kill them in your sleep.

Note to self- kill less people in next play through. The stream when I was "fighting" the Sorrow was a bit crowded ...

Will probably be finished the game by tonight (not playing it now, busy).

You're playing metal gear. The Shagohod being lifted by five helicopters doesn't even BEGIN to compare to Grey Fox's ridiculousness.

Yes, the bosses are all very easy- the hardest were probably the Fear or Volgin pt.1.

Though the fight with the End was just annoying, which is why I used a cheat method to beat him- I saved during the fight, turned off the PS2, turned it back on, changed the internal clock one week forward and resumed playing. The End had died of old age.

Though do check out the secret theater stuff, its all great. Though Metal Gear Raiden and Metal Gear Signit were by far the best.

A pack of Mi-12 HOMER’s would have been better, 1964 is early for that thing too but it had 22,000shp and could lift about 40 tons, so realistically they could move a 150 ton vehicle. Provided they had enough space to all hook on and not tangle in each others cables. The look of the aircraft would fit right in.
pic

That was one option I was considering as an alternative, but Volgin wanted his gunship support which, I'm sure you'll agree, MI-12s would suck at. Didn't look like he had many more helos than those Hinds at his disposal.

As for The End, aside from the naughty cheating by moving the clock forward, you can actually kill him earlier than that. When you first see him after The Boss has a talk with Volgin at the river dock where Ocelot shows off his juggling, you can actually shoot The End and kill him there while he's asleep. I think you have to be fast though and a good aim, given soldiers start patrolling soon after.

I didn't find the End that difficult personally. I found and killed him without him hitting me once. Didn't take too long either. Suppose I got lucky.

Well, I'm at the part after the motorbike crash when me and Eva have to make our way to the lake. I got annoyed when I realized I would still be fighting enemies (come on, Volgin's dead, why would they still be following me?). I'll finish it tommorow.

I enjoyd fighting the End, but I love sniper fights. I found the Sorrow incredibly irritating. I'm still not sure how I beat him.

DocHorror wrote:I enjoyd fighting the End, but I love sniper fights. I found the Sorrow incredibly irritating. I'm still not sure how I beat him.

You don't. You let yourself die and you take a revival pill. He's not really a boss, you're just at the bottom of the river dying and having near-death experiences.

Vympel wrote:

DocHorror wrote:I enjoyd fighting the End, but I love sniper fights. I found the Sorrow incredibly irritating. I'm still not sure how I beat him.

You don't. You let yourself die and you take a revival pill. He's not really a boss, you're just at the bottom of the river dying and having near-death experiences.

Aha! I remember now! My brain has been refreshed.

I remember my brother doing The Sorrow's part where you're having that near-death experience and having barely half a dozen dead soldiers, then half the bosses. When I got to that part, I was there quite a while. I vowed to try and get through the game with no kills next time.

Fun fact. When Volgin dies, if you look at him from Snake's POV, you see The Sorrow standing there with him. He was the one who called down the thunderbolt that struck Volgin. Ironically, Volgin cursed the storm and didn't say his usual "Kuwabara" line. So he screwed up there, heh. But that's what he gets for almost making Ocelot crash on his bike.

I just played it a bit more- goddamit, the fight against the Boss is hard. I quit in digust after coming really, really close to killing her and then running out of time due to the entirely arbitrary 10 minute limit.

Did I mention I think CQC is gay and adds absolutely nothing to the game other than frustration when you're fighting the Boss? Just fucking lame- push the O button reallllllllllllly fast and maybe- just maybe- you'll overpower the Boss and let you shoot her in the face after she falls over.

Vympel wrote:I just played it a bit more- goddamit, the fight against the Boss is hard. I quit in digust after coming really, really close to killing her and then running out of time due to the entirely arbitrary 10 minute limit.

Did I mention I think CQC is gay and adds absolutely nothing to the game other than frustration when you're fighting the Boss? Just fucking lame- push the O button reallllllllllllly fast and maybe- just maybe- you'll overpower the Boss and let you shoot her in the face after she falls over.

Oh, jeez...did you learn anything at all from the rest of the game? The Boss does NOT lose at CQC! She's already beaten Snake at it at least twice, and you haven't taken any karate clases, so don't try to beat her physically!

Get further away from her, get some good camo for the white area, and snipe the bitch!

Vympel wrote:I just played it a bit more- goddamit, the fight against the Boss is hard. I quit in digust after coming really, really close to killing her and then running out of time due to the entirely arbitrary 10 minute limit.

10 minutes until the place is glassed, basically.

Did I mention I think CQC is gay and adds absolutely nothing to the game other than frustration when you're fighting the Boss? Just fucking lame- push the O button reallllllllllllly fast and maybe- just maybe- you'll overpower the Boss and let you shoot her in the face after she falls over.

As Molyneux has pointed out, you must've somehow missed the fact that The Boss invented the technique and repeatedly hands Snake's arse to him on a silver platter.

Put distance between you and her and hit her with every weapon you have. If she gets close, she just needs to pump you with a burst of Patriot fire (her cut-off M16) and then wrestle you to the floor as you bleed. It doesn't help that you now have the disadvantage Solidus had with the eye being missing.

Incidentally, just recalled my brother's record on beating Volgin before he goes mad in the Shagohod: 38 seconds. Anyone done better? That was on hard, FYI.

Molyneux wrote: Oh, jeez...did you learn anything at all from the rest of the game? The Boss does NOT lose at CQC! She's already beaten Snake at it at least twice, and you haven't taken any karate clases, so don't try to beat her physically!

Get further away from her, get some good camo for the white area, and snipe the bitch!

*Sigh*

You missed the entire point of the criticism, which is that CQC adds absolutely nothing to the game. Be honest, how many times did you use it? I'll tell you how many times I used it- never. Why the hell would you want to run right up to a guard and man-handle him when you can plug him in the head with a silenced Mk 22 or M1911A1? You wouldn't, and I didn't.

So basically, the only utility CQC has is when fighting the Boss, and you can overpower her, but it's entirely random, unintuitive, and in general, complete shit. See, they didn't go to the trouble of actually developing intuitive technique to fighting the Boss so you would know when you were doing it right and when you weren't.

As Molyneux has pointed out, you must've somehow missed the fact that The Boss invented the technique and repeatedly hands Snake's arse to him on a silver platter.

For accuracy: she and Snake developed it together.

Put distance between you and her and hit her with every weapon you have. If she gets close, she just needs to pump you with a burst of Patriot fire (her cut-off M16) and then wrestle you to the floor as you bleed. It doesn't help that you now have the disadvantage Solidus had with the eye being missing.

I really don't have a problem with life in the fight, it's just killing her fast that I couldn't do. With the Sneaking Camo, you lose virtually no stamina and very little life. Since her eyesight sucks, you don't need snow face/camo (95% camo lying down) to hide from her.

EDIT: really, MGS/MGS2's simple throw/choke thing worked fine. All that extra shit- pfft.

I think they were grasping at straws with how the Boss lost her baby. I mean, really, A woman who's nine months pregnant is sent on a combat mission? Involving parachuting into a combat zone the enemy had 4 years to fortify? And not only pregnant, but the best Special forces operative the Allies had? Did they WANT her to die? Why not just have her give birth at a hospital in the USA, if the philosophers already control that country?

Vympel wrote: So basically, the only utility CQC has is when fighting the Boss, and you can overpower her, but it's entirely random, unintuitive, and in general, complete shit. See, they didn't go to the trouble of actually developing intuitive technique to fighting the Boss so you would know when you were doing it right and when you weren't.

It was more useful against Volgin. Throw him to the floor then shoot him in the ass with the shotgun whilst he gets up. I believe I used the same strategy against The Boss. Attacking at range just took too long, blasting a floored opponent at point blank took big meaty chunks out of their health.

Setzer wrote:I think they were grasping at straws with how the Boss lost her baby. I mean, really, A woman who's nine months pregnant is sent on a combat mission? Involving parachuting into a combat zone the enemy had 4 years to fortify? And not only pregnant, but the best Special forces operative the Allies had? Did they WANT her to die? Why not just have her give birth at a hospital in the USA, if the philosophers already control that country?

If it's not horrendously and needlessly torturous and complicated, it's not Metal Gear Solid. Have you learned nothing?

I think the US gov't just felt like being asses, y'know, as they always are.

I always used CQC. It was very useful in conserving rounds, and the interrogating of that one grunt so as to get into the R&D centre was fun. I took on whole squads with my hands until they got a good shot in. I hope they flesh it out more in MGS4, because being able to use a knife when your Colt is empty (and 7 fucking rounds ain't enough) is a godsend. Fighting The Boss isn't random though. You need to time it right, because if you grab her then don't immediately floor her, she'll simply reverse the hold and get out of it, then probably clobber you. It's possible to get her with just CQC, but it takes bloody ages.

Personally, I never got tired of diving into oncoming enemies. That shit's fun.

Vympel wrote:

Molyneux wrote: Oh, jeez...did you learn anything at all from the rest of the game? The Boss does NOT lose at CQC! She's already beaten Snake at it at least twice, and you haven't taken any karate clases, so don't try to beat her physically!

Get further away from her, get some good camo for the white area, and snipe the bitch!

*Sigh*

You missed the entire point of the criticism, which is that CQC adds absolutely nothing to the game. Be honest, how many times did you use it? I'll tell you how many times I used it- never. Why the hell would you want to run right up to a guard and man-handle him when you can plug him in the head with a silenced Mk 22 or M1911A1? You wouldn't, and I didn't.

EDIT: really, MGS/MGS2's simple throw/choke thing worked fine. All that extra shit- pfft.

Umm...constantly? It was loads of fun, really. Then again, I did have the Stealth Camo last time I played, so it was quite a bit easier...

As for MGS/MGS2, I was incredibly pissed that we had to wait until the third Solid game to get a protagonist smart enough to carry a goddamn KNIFE!

Solid Snake doesn't like bladed weapons.

Darth Raptor wrote:Solid Snake doesn't like bladed weapons.

Well, he's not very smart then. And neither is Raiden.

I can't tell you how many times in MGS2 I wished I could have just stolen the damn knife the terrorists used on the Marines at the beginning of the Tanker level...