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Posted: **2006-05-22 10:46pm**

I got back into playing Rome Total War, doing a few battles every now and then, and playing a campaign over the last month or so. I've gotten the Marius Reforms about 20 turns back, and am playing Julii.

So em. Let's see. Bunch of questions.

What's the use of javelin troops? Archers fire so much farther, enough to get in two or three more volleys potentially.

Is there ever a reason not to use pilums before charging infantry in to combat?

How can I fight a Phalanx if I'm unable to flank them? Romans have crap-all for spear troops. I've never been able to train Triariai, and Auxilla don't seem that good compared to normal legions. Arrows also seem to bounce off them, even the cruddy barbarian spearmen.

How can I reduce squalor in my cities? I've built the highest level sewer, and that almost always contributes 90 percent of my discontent in major cities.

Is Artillery like Scorpions and Balistae worth it? I've never really killed more than three or four enemies per shot with a group of 4 Balista units.

How do you kill Elephants reliably without mounted skirmishers?

That's it... for now.

Posted: **2006-05-22 10:56pm**

Nephtys wrote:I got back into playing Rome Total War, doing a few battles every now and then, and playing a campaign over the last month or so. I've gotten the Marius Reforms about 20 turns back, and am playing Julii.

So em. Let's see. Bunch of questions.

What's the use of javelin troops? Archers fire so much farther, enough to get in two or three more volleys potentially.

Is there ever a reason not to use pilums before charging infantry in to combat?

How can I fight a Phalanx if I'm unable to flank them? Romans have crap-all for spear troops. I've never been able to train Triariai, and Auxilla don't seem that good compared to normal legions. Arrows also seem to bounce off them, even the cruddy barbarian spearmen.

How can I reduce squalor in my cities? I've built the highest level sewer, and that almost always contributes 90 percent of my discontent in major cities.

Is Artillery like Scorpions and Balistae worth it? I've never really killed more than three or four enemies per shot with a group of 4 Balista units.

How do you kill Elephants reliably without mounted skirmishers?

That's it... for now.

Javelins are more reliable killers I think. Something to do with the mass of the pilum.

There's no reason not to use the pilums before charging with your legions, except, possibly, if you want to conserve them for a possible second charge.

Cavalry is good for breaking phalanxes. If you don't have any, spread your troops out wider, and have the outside troops flank inwards. The inside troops just withdraw when engaged. I think that should work, anyway.

Posted: **2006-05-22 11:32pm**

Nephtys wrote:What's the use of javelin troops? Archers fire so much farther, enough to get in two or three more volleys potentially.

Javelins are more effective against armoured foes and they're better at melee fighting. They're not going to stand up against heavy infantry, but if it's touch-and-go, they just might be enough to tip the scales in your favour. I've used javelineers as reserve forces before, with some success. They're fast and they can be enough to rattle an enemy unit which is engaged with one of your heavy infantry units if they flank them. They also have a melee bonus against cavalry and elephants.

Is there ever a reason not to use pilums before charging infantry in to combat?

Sure: when there are friendlies in the way. You don't want to have too many friendly fire casualties if you can help it, although the pilum-throwing AI seems to have improved in recent versions. Without patches, RTW legionaries will cause heavy friendly-fire casualties with their pila unless you micromanage them.

How can I fight a Phalanx if I'm unable to flank them? Romans have crap-all for spear troops. I've never been able to train Triariai, and Auxilla don't seem that good compared to normal legions. Arrows also seem to bounce off them, even the cruddy barbarian spearmen.

You might be surprised at how effective crappy light infantry can be as a flanking force; see my earlier comments about javelin troops. Another tactic you can use against phalanxes is to split your army into two separate units, like this:

Code: Select all

XXXXX          XXXXXX




     OOOOOOOOOO

The enemy will often split his line to attack both armies, like this:

Code: Select all

XXXXX          XXXXXX


    OOO      OOO
  OO            OO

And if your timing is right, you can maneuver one of your half-armies to avoid the phalanxes heading toward it (not difficult since phalanxes are slower than molasses) and swing it around to crush the phalanxes which are engaged with your other half-army, like this:

Code: Select all

  XXX
XXOOO   X
 OO    XX    O
      XX    OO
           OO

Basically, this tactic relies upon the fact that the enemy AI really has no idea how to deal with this unconventional maneuver (and to be fair, no real general in antiquity could have pulled it off for various reasons; it only works because of the particular scales and godlike coordination abilities in RTW).

How can I reduce squalor in my cities? I've built the highest level sewer, and that almost always contributes 90 percent of my discontent in major cities.

Believe it or not, you have to simply live with high squalor in your largest cities, and compensate for it with numerous happiness-generating structures.

Is Artillery like Scorpions and Balistae worth it? I've never really killed more than three or four enemies per shot with a group of 4 Balista units.

I don't know if it's worth the slot that you could have otherwise used for heavy infantry or cavalry, especially since artillery reduces your army's movement range per turn. But they do come in handy if the enemy has some particularly tough units and you'd like to whittle them down at a distance. And artillery can also damage enemy morale, which makes it easier to route them when they engage your forces.

How do you kill Elephants reliably without mounted skirmishers?

Phalanxes work well. If you can't build phalanxes or hire mercenary phalanxes, foot skirmishers aren't bad either. Just make sure you set them to a loose formation so the elephants can't take out too many men with a single charge. You might also be able to rattle them with flaming arrows if you have lots of archer units; I've found that four units of archers concentrating fire on a single unit of elephants will usually make the animals panic before too long.

Posted: **2006-05-22 11:46pm**

Nephtys wrote:What's the use of javelin troops? Archers fire so much farther, enough to get in two or three more volleys potentially.

I never use them much because of the Legionaries having Pilum. But against heavily armored units they are much better than archers.

Is there ever a reason not to use pilums before charging infantry in to combat?

With the patches that reduce friendly fire? Only if you want to save them for tougher troops.

How can I fight a Phalanx if I'm unable to flank them? Romans have crap-all for spear troops. I've never been able to train Triariai, and Auxilla don't seem that good compared to normal legions. Arrows also seem to bounce off them, even the cruddy barbarian spearmen.

Cavalry is a must as once the enemies phalanxes are mired in with your troops you can run right over them and they'll break and run in droves. If for some reason you don't have cavalry in your army, go with what Wong said. Splitting up your troops will confuse them and with a little luck you may even get their entire army held by half your troops as the others wrap around the side.

How can I reduce squalor in my cities? I've built the highest level sewer, and that almost always contributes 90 percent of my discontent in major cities.

There's not much you can do. Getting a governor who has squalor reducing capabilities is probably your best bet.

Is Artillery like Scorpions and Balistae worth it? I've never really killed more than three or four enemies per shot with a group of 4 Balista units.

It's good to have an Siege army that you can use to severely soften up enemy cities and having a few Scorpions and Onagers during a bridge battle where you stop them before they can cross will lead to massive casualties for the opposing army. Other than that, there's not much use to them as heavy infantry or cavalry will be far more useful to you on the field.

How do you kill Elephants reliably without mounted skirmishers?

Archer's using their fire arrows is probably your best bet. Then just pray they don't run amok near you.

Posted: **2006-05-23 12:48am**

A few additions to what everyone has said:

Javelin troops are ideal as a skirmish/recon screen as well. Due to my playstyle (taking into account strategic and logistical concerns as well as tactical), I don't use them very often, but they do have uses in this role. This skirmish screen can deplete enemy ammunition with minimal casualties, harass their infantry without fear of counterattack (and potentially break up the enemy formation, making them even more vulnerable when the lines clash), and they're also pretty good against elephants and chariots, who will fuck up your legionary infantry something awful.

Fighting phalanxes - If for whatever reason you absolutely cannot flank, and must fight a phalanx head-on mano-a-mano, you want the hardest troops you can get - Urban Cohorts can tear through a mid-level phalanx (such as Hoplites or Phalanx Pikemen (I think that's the name of the Macedonian mid-level unit, anyway)) without taking too many casualties, and their pila will also cause some pretty good damage. This is not a terribly effective use of these BMF Troopers, however, so flank when you can - even if it's with archers or, even better, javelin skirmishers like Light Auxilia. Even if the flanking unit cannot do much in melee, the massive hit to enemy morale means they will almost definitely break if you play your cards right.

EDIT: Also, don't knock Auxilia. They're hardcore sons of bitches, for baseline infantry.

Posted: **2006-05-23 12:51am**

Very helpful here.

Hrm. Just one more question. How prevalent is friendly fire? My troops often toss their Pilum into a melee from behind. I can't tell how many of my own those hit though. And often, archers will fire into a crowd my units charge. I don't know how dangerous that is to my own soldiers.

Also, does overcrowding hurt my soldiers? Like if my own calvary charges into the rear of one of my formations to get at the enemy?

Posted: **2006-05-23 12:58am**

Nephtys wrote:Very helpful here.

Hrm. Just one more question. How prevalent is friendly fire? My troops often toss their Pilum into a melee from behind. I can't tell how many of my own those hit though. And often, archers will fire into a crowd my units charge. I don't know how dangerous that is to my own soldiers.

Also, does overcrowding hurt my soldiers? Like if my own calvary charges into the rear of one of my formations to get at the enemy?

Very. It's just as lethal to your own troops as it is to the enemy (excepting differing factors like armor). Later patches fix the AI so it will not be so trigger-happy in proximity to your own men, but I don't know what version you have (1.5/1.6 is the latest, RTW and BI respectively).

Not really, though it will in Medieval 2. It mostly means those units will then be more susceptible to ranged fire, especially onagers and such. Sometimes overcrowding is good, as it means more mass that the enemy has to push through to get at delicate innards.

Posted: **2006-05-23 02:30am**

One reason for not using the pilum with the legionaries is if they are flanking and the troops holding the enemy in position are faltering. A unit of legionaries crashing into their flank is more likely to break an enemy then a pilum trow so in those cases it is better to just run in. The other time is if you are advancing on a moving fast enemy unit (say beserkers or something). If your legionaries are attacked while in throwing stance they will suffer higher casulties and higher morale loss. This usualy isn't a problem, since legionaries are very reliable troops, but in a battle where they have already been to hell and back it can cause them to break instead of functioning as a good holding troop allowing your cavalry or other infantry to flank.

Posted: **2006-05-23 06:31am**

I only use pila in defence, not attack. I'll usually hold my Legionaries (be they post-Marian or Comitantenses from BI or whatever) in a line and just let the enemy advance, and set all my men to fire at will. Huge casualties, works like a charm.

Posted: **2006-05-23 06:35am**

I find javs useful close in, as Vympel says - they're far more effective against armour than arrows, but things like phalangites with their shields laugh it off from the front.

It's very useful to alt-click to send your Roman troops straight in without throwing javs.

Posted: **2006-05-23 08:59am**

I've found that the best use of Light Auxila is to use them to haress hoplites that are approaching my troops, and draw them off their formations, and to slaughter elephants and reduce chariots (although the light gladitors are better in this role). When I used them like this, I have them in a lose formation. Against barbarians, or when a lot of enemy cavalry is on the field, I keep them behind my infantry and use them as support. Typically though, if I'm going against barbarians or a cavalry heavy force, I leave the Light Auxila at home.

As for regular Auxila, they'll chew up cavalry very well, and make very good general purpose infantry. They may not have the cav stopping power of a high level phalanx, or the melee ability of a cohort, they are still very good troops, providing a good balance between the two.

For artillery, I prefer onagers and I hardly ever use ballista or scorpians. Nothing ruins your enemy's day like a well placed flaming shot from an onager.

Posted: **2006-05-23 09:32am**

Nephtys wrote:Also, does overcrowding hurt my soldiers? Like if my own calvary charges into the rear of one of my formations to get at the enemy?

Overcrowding of infantry is good. But never ever charge an enemy head on with cavalry, especially Roman cavalry (unless you've spent the time and money for the really good ones). Cavalry is going to be much more useful to you smashing your enemies rear than taking it on from the front. If there are some of your own troops in your way though, stop the charge unless it's only a few because the charge will get slowed down considerably and loose a lot of it's potency.

Posted: **2006-05-23 10:58am**

Vympel wrote:I only use pila in defence, not attack. I'll usually hold my Legionaries (be they post-Marian or Comitantenses from BI or whatever) in a line and just let the enemy advance, and set all my men to fire at will. Huge casualties, works like a charm.

My favourite tactic in BI is to set up a front-line of at least 8 units of plumbatarii, with a couple of spear units at the flanks and cav/missile units behind them. In my experience, no enemy army can march up to a line of 8 or more plumbatarii units without being fucked up so badly by the iron dart storm that they are virtually destroyed as an effective fighting force before they even make contact. Especially if you can find a nice piece of high ground and the enemy advances on you (but it also works if you advance toward the enemy and then stop just short).

Posted: **2006-05-23 09:30pm**

How do you kill Elephants reliably without mounted skirmishers?

Any skirmishers, heck any missile unit is good against elephants. Also try archer/light arty with fire arrows against them. You can also use infantry in loose formation, I once made elephants go skitz with warband set in loose formation.

Posted: **2006-05-24 01:32am**

Of course, a fire rock from an onager will generally cause an instant rout, but those things are so damned inaccurate that you're lucky to hit the entire enemy army, never mind a particular unit in that army.

Posted: **2006-05-24 02:35am**

I always had two Onagers in my standard army to increase the chances of a hit at all times- if you're on the attack it's surprising how the AI will just sit there and take repeated bombardment, as well as how often the flaming pot will land right on their general unit, practically guaranteeing victory. I'll often let them run down their entire ammunition reserve before I send in the infantry and cavalry.

I never really bothered with other artillery until BI, where the carriage ballistae proved just devastating.

Posted: **2006-05-24 04:29am**

Onagers are the standard artillery for my army. Target their general or a high-value unit and pound the shit out of it with onagers on flame setting and the enemy will often rout before they reach your lines.

Posted: **2006-05-24 09:04am**

I believe that onagers also get better aim with more experience, or at least that's what it seems to me. In my Macedonian game I have an army holding a bridge against repeated German invasions. The fire pots seem to have alot more leeway in terms of distance fired than the side-to-side angle. As it happens, the AI invariably lines all its units up in a line to charge the bridge, so I get a pretty good hit rate...just not necessarily what you want to hit.

Posted: **2006-05-24 09:19am**

I usually avoid putting onagers in my army because of their negative effect on the army's movement points in the campaign map. If I have to take 5 turns instead of 3 turns to reach an enemy city, I'd rather leave the onagers at home. Unless they're carriage ballistae, which get cavalry movement points.

Posted: **2006-05-24 12:04pm**

AdmiralKanos wrote:I usually avoid putting onagers in my army because of their negative effect on the army's movement points in the campaign map. If I have to take 5 turns instead of 3 turns to reach an enemy city, I'd rather leave the onagers at home. Unless they're carriage ballistae, which get cavalry movement points.

Holy crap. I really want to get Barbarian Invasion now, if for nothing else than the carraige ballistae.

Posted: **2006-05-24 12:14pm**

I usually avoid putting onagers in my army because of their negative effect on the army's movement points in the campaign map. If I have to take 5 turns instead of 3 turns to reach an enemy city, I'd rather leave the onagers at home. Unless they're carriage ballistae, which get cavalry movement points.

True, but then again, you're going to spend at least one turn building the appropriate siege equipment to take the city in question anyway, wheras Onagers lets you break down the gates/walls (not to mention take out those goddamn annoying defensive towers and gate houses- a must if using siege towers) the moment you arrive- although siege does has its own advantage in that it whittles down the number of defenders, I suppose.

Posted: **2006-05-24 12:23pm**

Captain Cyran wrote:Holy crap. I really want to get Barbarian Invasion now, if for nothing else than the carraige ballistae.

The carriage ballistae are totally worth it. It's especially funny if you can somehow take out the enemy's archers and cavalry, and leave only his heavy infantry. Because carriage ballistae can butcher heavy infantry with virtual impunity. I've wiped out two units of First Cohort heavy legionaries with one unit of carriage ballistae before.

Vympel wrote:True, but then again, you're going to spend at least one turn building the appropriate siege equipment to take the city in question anyway, wheras Onagers lets you break down the gates/walls (not to mention take out those goddamn annoying defensive towers and gate houses- a must if using siege towers) the moment you arrive- although siege does has its own advantage in that it whittles down the number of defenders, I suppose.

I like using siege towers to take the walls, and then take the city; I find I sustain fewer casualties that way. And it doesn't particularly bother me if I use up a turn besieging him. Not only does it weaken him as you say, but if he manages to bring up another reinforcing army to attack me, I like to line up my army in the farthest corner of the map so that his two armies have to travel a very long way to attack me (and a very long way to escape after being routed, which gives my cavalry plenty of time to run them down). I often manage to completely wipe out both the reinforcing army and his garrison in the resulting battle thanks to the natural defensive advantage and the withering iron dart storm of the plumbatarii, thus letting me take the city completely intact, without a fight (and I also have a pretty good chance of getting a "Famous Battle" marker on the map). I sometimes deliberately besiege a city knowing that there's an enemy field army nearby, just so I can do this.

Posted: **2006-05-24 12:47pm**

Personally I use alot siege weapons (I think I've captured only one city/town more or less intact).

Posted: **2006-05-24 12:52pm**

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:I only use pila in defence, not attack. I'll usually hold my Legionaries (be they post-Marian or Comitantenses from BI or whatever) in a line and just let the enemy advance, and set all my men to fire at will. Huge casualties, works like a charm.
My favourite tactic in BI is to set up a front-line of at least 8 units of plumbatarii, with a couple of spear units at the flanks and cav/missile units behind them. In my experience, no enemy army can march up to a line of 8 or more plumbatarii units without being fucked up so badly by the iron dart storm that they are virtually destroyed as an effective fighting force before they even make contact. Especially if you can find a nice piece of high ground and the enemy advances on you (but it also works if you advance toward the enemy and then stop just short).

In vanilla Rome I've had insta-routs from my Cohorts throwing up a hail of pila at an advancing enemy. The most memorable was one of my main armies, against an enemy force so gigantic that it had to come in three waves. My army was 1 general, 12 legionary cohorts, 3 velite cohorts, 4 cavalry alae.

I know I was Scipii, but can't recall who my enemy was. It was on one of the forests maps, I think it was the Dacians.

I set the legionaires on fire at will and hold position, and the velites far in front of my lines to weather-down the enemy as they advanced. When they got close to my main line, the enemy charged, and the entire wave was stopped cold by a flying wall of pointy sticks. I swear to you that everthing, the cavalry charging my flanks, the infantry, everybody just stopped short of contact, turned tail, and ran. My cavalry had a field day chasing them down. I used-up my pila in the second wave, which was quickly routed by my near no-casualty high morale troops. The third wave got crushed, when I simply ordered my entire army to counter-charge. My troops had gotten plenty of rest while the enemy mades its way across the map, so it was a pushover.

Quality > Numbers

Posted: **2006-05-24 03:20pm**

Arcanii are.. great.

I had a town training four units of them, and a 20 unit Gaelic army blindsides me from out of nowhere it seems. I left a town they had in spain intact...

So I've got maybe four town watch, four archers, and two legions. The Arcanii just hid and let the enemy walk by them, and while my town watch were getting slaughtered, they charged the rear and devastated the enemy. Wooow.

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