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I want to ask, has anyone played the Exile as a neutral? Forget light-side, dark-side, but straight down the middle, fence-sitting, dresses in grey rather than white or black, neutral?

Is it even possible? (The prestige classes wouldn't be available, but you also wouldn't be able to talk to Kreia after level 15 without her telling you to choose a path - but fuck her, anyway)

I have a neutral game in progress I've been neglecting. I don't think it works that way though, it will consider your overall alignment as whichever way you lean (and it's impossible to be perfectly, utterly neutral).

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:I have a neutral game in progress I've been neglecting. I don't think it works that way though, it will consider your overall alignment as whichever way you lean (and it's impossible to be perfectly, utterly neutral).

Where you lean doesn't matter, so long as rainbows don't shine out of your arse you're considered 'neutral'.

I also seem to recall that you have to be firmly in the LS or DS camp before you can multiclass into the prestige classes. If that is so, then playing a neutral means you stay as one class (I don't have a problem with that).

You also have to be 50% toward light or dark mastery before Visas shows up, IIRC. Since she's kind of needed for the story, I wonder how the game would deal with it if you never hit that mark.

Stofsk wrote:I also seem to recall that you have to be firmly in the LS or DS camp before you can multiclass into the prestige classes. If that is so, then playing a neutral means you stay as one class (I don't have a problem with that).

IIRC, if you are "Dark" (i.e. the red cloud is showing up on your character portrait), you get a Sith prestige class. Otherwise you get a Jedi prestige class.

As for playing neutral, I find the KOTOR series kinda frowns on neutral characters. You get massive bonuses for being fully one side or the other, particularly in KOTOR 2.

I mean, a fully light side Jedi Guardian/Weapon Master gets +6 strength (good for +3 damage on all hits beyond class-related damage bonuses), and half-cost on Force point usage for Light powers. They do get a 75% penalty on Force point usage for Dark powers, but even a Guardian/Weapon Master has enough Force points that you could burn through several Force storms without starving yourself of the Force.

OTOH, a fully dark side Dark Guardian/Marauder gets +2d8 damage on all hits (not including the major damage bonuses they already get for being a Marauder), and the opposite for Force point cost as the Light side equivalent.

On the gripping hand, a neutral Jedi Guardian/Weapon Master gets jack shit. Absolutely nothing. No stat boosts, no damage bonuses (beyond from being a Weapon Master), and no power cost reduction. Only benefit they get over the min-maxed alternatives is they don't have to suffer a penalty for certain Force powers. Ooooooh!

Of course, I also see that they tend to try to push the character towards the light side, since with a couple exceptions, the Dark Side options are almost always idiotic "Hur hur, I stab you in the back for no reason, though I get no reward now because you are dead. Oh well." Whereas many of the Light Side options have "No, you don't need to reward me. Oh, you want to anyway? Okay. I'll take the credits and the Light Side points!"

Bindo's Robe is the only thing that I can think might make up for the power imbalance for a neutral character. That thing is supposed to add something like +31 to Defense, and be only useable by a neutral character.

Personally I've never seen it in several different run-throughs, but a prerequisite for it spawning might jutst be you running a neutral character at a certain point(Not that I think the branching options and balancing were considered in that kind of detail)

Neutral basically gets Bindo's robe....if you find them and the Crystal is a tad diffrent(more in between rather then phyiscal or Force orientated).

Other then that? Not much really. You basically can access the powers with minimal penalties.

I've never even heard of Bindo's robes, much less seen them. Is this one of those items that is supposed to exist in the game, but never actually shows up?

Kinda like the Zeison Sha Warrior Armor. +5 defense, 4 max dex, light armor that doesn't restrict Force powers. Only reason I've ever seen that item is because I installed a mod that allows you to make Jedi robes with the workbench (seriously, Jedi should be able to sew).

Civil War Man wrote:I've never even heard of Bindo's robes, much less seen them. Is this one of those items that is supposed to exist in the game, but never actually shows up?

It's a random item, and I've only seen it once. The guide books shows it, and honestly the +31 defense is nice...but c'mon. You can become a destruction incarnate in either lightning or lightsaber that defense is pointless.

So I was "Ummm...I'm darkness incarnate, what the fuck do I do with these?".

Ghost Rider wrote:It's a random item, and I've only seen it once.

That would explain it, then. I rarely have luck with random items. One of the reasons I installed that mod I mentioned in my last post. I've played some games where if I didn't buy Jedi robes, I wouldn't have gotten any Jedi-friendly armor before the end of the return to Onderon (which is mid- to end-game, for those unfamiliar with it).

And I can't remember how many times I've done a quicksave-talk-reload because an NPC kept giving me a short lightsaber when I needed a double-bladed saber or a double-bladed saber when I needed a regular lightsaber.

Ghost Rider wrote:So I was "Ummm...I'm darkness incarnate, what the fuck do I do with these?".

I prefer the "God of Light" look, myself. Really, it gets to the point where you almost can't even see your character on the stat screen; it's just a mass of backlit white fog.

But really, I can't see you could get through the game by walking the line. I mean, which bounty hunter do you pick up on Nar Shadda? Crazy Wookiee or Mara Jade look-alike?

Noble Ire wrote:I prefer the "God of Light" look, myself. Really, it gets to the point where you almost can't even see your character on the stat screen; it's just a mass of backlit white fog.

White fog? Pah. Pillar of light FTW.

But really, I can't see you could get through the game by walking the line. I mean, which bounty hunter do you pick up on Nar Shadda? Crazy Wookiee or Mara Jade look-alike?

If you do fully walk-the-line, you'll end up being fairly neutral with the Exchange (piss them off a little, appease them a little), at which point I think you'd have to pay off that little rat near the cantina. And that gives you the chance to decide who you want to pick up.

Most of the really powerful robes and armour in the game (Like Bindo's robes and Malak's armour) can only be gotten by doing the Pylon quest for Fassa on Nar Shadda at really high levels- around 45 and higher, IIRC. And even then it's still random.

As stated above, the advantages (one or two extrememly rare items) don't outweight the benefits of going either way. And I'd like to add my two bits in about the darkside paths sucking horribly in both games. Rather than being a shadowy manipulater, I'm a brainless homocidal psychopath. Yeah, that makes sense considering ... everything else in SW.

One time I went light side until I prestiged to Jedi Master, then dropped down to neutral. It was a noteworthy experience in that it was quite unremarkable.

The last time I played through, it was right after playing Jade Empire, so I tried to play according to the Way of the Closed Fist. Somewhat surprisingly, it led to a lot of influence from Kreia, but not necessarily dark side points. Eventually, though, I had to turn into the mindless psychopath for dark side points, rationalizing that it was for the bonuses. After all, according to the Closed Fist, strength is the ultimate virtue.

I'll have to agree that the light side/dark side is a little screwed up. I've done some nasty stuff yet i'm on par with handmaiden on lightside points. Also I have a psycological problems that seem to stop me form doing bad stuff even though I know its only a game.

LeftWingExtremist wrote:Also I have a psycological problems that seem to stop me form doing bad stuff even though I know its only a game.

I wouldn't really call it a psychological problem that you feel bad whenever you act like a sadistic asshole, even if it is only in an RPG. It would be a psychological problem if you didn't feel anything was wrong when you threaten to kill a homeless man because he asked for $1.50 (which is essentially one of the Dark Side options when you first arrive at Nar Shaddaa in KOTOR 2).

Civil War Man wrote:

LeftWingExtremist wrote:Also I have a psycological problems that seem to stop me form doing bad stuff even though I know its only a game.

I wouldn't really call it a psychological problem that you feel bad whenever you act like a sadistic asshole, even if it is only in an RPG. It would be a psychological problem if you didn't feel anything was wrong when you threaten to kill a homeless man because he asked for $1.50 (which is essentially one of the Dark Side options when you first arrive at Nar Shaddaa in KOTOR 2).

Nar Shaddaa has quite a lot of opportunities for the deranged Dark side psycopath. I especially liked the part where you run across a pair of thugs ruffing up some commoner and you can make them give you all of their money, and then commit suicide by jumping of a precipice. Of course, I never did it, but it was a serious "WTF" moment.

Noble Ire wrote:

Civil War Man wrote:

LeftWingExtremist wrote:Also I have a psycological problems that seem to stop me form doing bad stuff even though I know its only a game.

I wouldn't really call it a psychological problem that you feel bad whenever you act like a sadistic asshole, even if it is only in an RPG. It would be a psychological problem if you didn't feel anything was wrong when you threaten to kill a homeless man because he asked for $1.50 (which is essentially one of the Dark Side options when you first arrive at Nar Shaddaa in KOTOR 2).

Nar Shaddaa has quite a lot of opportunities for the deranged Dark side psycopath. I especially liked the part where you run across a pair of thugs ruffing up some commoner and you can make them give you all of their money, and then commit suicide by jumping of a precipice. Of course, I never did it, but it was a serious "WTF" moment.

You never did that in the game? I like of liked that option. Man...I must be a bit off since I can pull the trigger on those things in the game. I also was able to threaten death to the homeless man. My issue with the games is that the evil option is almost always, as you referenced, the psycopathic way to do it rather then something more like what we see of the Sith. Yes, the whole lot of them is deranged, but they don't just murder everyone in their path. I had the same feelings with NWN, but that's a whole different topic.

I also thought it was lame that 'Dark Side' meant 'rude' and 'insane killer' and things, not 'manipulates others to get power' or 'liar, cheater, deciever'. A Kotor Sith wouldn't 'turn' anyone, or twist them to their own ends - they'd ruthlessly murder them for NO REASON. Because there's a benefit to that...

Stark wrote:I also thought it was lame that 'Dark Side' meant 'rude' and 'insane killer' and things, not 'manipulates others to get power' or 'liar, cheater, deciever'. A Kotor Sith wouldn't 'turn' anyone, or twist them to their own ends - they'd ruthlessly murder them for NO REASON. Because there's a benefit to that...

I've never played as a Sith, but there do seem to be a lot of non-"kill kill" evil options. You can lie quite a lot for money, turn people on one another, break their spirits, or just make them feel bad for no particular reason. Although, admitted, if one were to follow that path, simply killing everything that walked might be the more obvious and superficially entertaing path.

Stark wrote:I also thought it was lame that 'Dark Side' meant 'rude' and 'insane killer' and things, not 'manipulates others to get power' or 'liar, cheater, deciever'. A Kotor Sith wouldn't 'turn' anyone, or twist them to their own ends - they'd ruthlessly murder them for NO REASON. Because there's a benefit to that...

I agree. Posted my original thoughts here, on topic quote;

Crown wrote:Darkside

Can we please put some effort into this? I'm sorry, but killing puppies just for the sake of killing puppies to gain Dark Side Points (DSP) does not interest me. I get it! I'm aiming for DSP so I have to do 'evil' things, that's fine - but do they have to be so fucking petty?

This was in both KotoR 1 and 2, and it really brought the game down.

My idea (which I see others in this thread have already said upon re-reading the thread, but I'll keep this bit in anyway) - and I know that it would take a little more effort from the game developers to do this - is to have a Darkside story arc (for example in KotoR 2 it could have been the Exchange posting bounties on Jedi) whereby I go the Darkside route, collect my DSP, but rather than killing misserable refugees, or slaughtering helpless Ithorians (who by the way were too dumb to be conciveable that they actually were the fittest species on their planet), make it more Palpatine-like Darkside ascention.

I mean, sure I work for Czerka for a while, and the Exchange, but at the end of the day these people should become my tools, I should own them. The best example I have of this can both be found in KotoR 2; the Twi'lek dancing girl on Telos Station - who dances for me, I'm her pimp and collect on her earnings - and the Tandorians (I hope I got that right) who try and take over the Ebon Hawk on Nar Shadaa - who also become my bitches and pay their dues to me. But obviously on a more 'grander' scale.

That is what the Darkside path should be like, not some thug with a lightsabre.

LeftWingExtremist wrote:I'll have to agree that the light side/dark side is a little screwed up. I've done some nasty stuff yet i'm on par with handmaiden on lightside points. Also I have a psycological problems that seem to stop me form doing bad stuff even though I know its only a game.

I don't have psychological problems, but quite often even when playing the evil side I would make the nice choice just because the bad guys in that segment of game really ticked me off, and I didn't feel like seeing them prosper.

Noble Ire wrote:Nar Shaddaa has quite a lot of opportunities for the deranged Dark side psycopath. I especially liked the part where you run across a pair of thugs ruffing up some commoner and you can make them give you all of their money, and then commit suicide by jumping of a precipice.

And the best part about that was, you not only got your Dark Side points, but you also got influence with Bao-Dur (really hard to do when going Dark Side).

KotOR darkside is brilliant comedy in the sense of how campy your evil acts are. You can easily envisage your character twiddling their evil moustache after suggesting the two thugs jump into the pit, or telling the sick man that its better he killed himself rather than healing him. If you go on a murder rampage at Telos station's Czerka office you can slaughter the secretary on the way out. I just enjoy the freaked out reactions of the supporting characters as they realise theyve just slaughtered some random innocents. It is good that you can even get your droid to follow the dark path.

It's good to be evil, honest I'm not psychotic.