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I got my brother's copy of DOW and WA and installed it, along with the Steel Legion mod, and I'm not too impressed with the way combat is handled. Combat always invariably devolves into chaotic close melees, and the weapons are really underpowered; automatic weapons should dominate the battlefield, instead of being totally ineffective.

The game is reminding me of all the reasons I stopped playing RTSes...

MKSheppard wrote:I got my brother's copy of DOW and WA and installed it, along with the Steel Legion mod, and I'm not too impressed with the way combat is handled. Combat always invariably devolves into chaotic close melees, and the weapons are really underpowered; automatic weapons should dominate the battlefield, instead of being totally ineffective.

The game is reminding me of all the reasons I stopped playing RTSes...

The game is played with raiding and minimal micromanagement. Resource harassment is important, and the WORST strategy is to hide behind walls and mass troops, unlike most of the C&C's. Also, there's practically no 'select unit, press button' nonsense that Warcraft 3 players think is fun.

Admittedly, it has less 'sandbox' charm than playing Generals or Act of War.

A big part of the fun of Warhammer 40K is the close combat. Overall I personally think they adapted the 40k universe pretty well to a game format while keeping a decent balance of things.

Nephtys wrote:Resource harassment is important, and the WORST strategy is to hide behind walls and mass troops, unlike most of the C&C's.

To go off-topic, since I dislike DoW too (though for entirely different reasons): How on Earth did you get that notion in your head? Turtling in C&C (this from playing both Red Alerts and Tiberian Sun extensively) will get you having your base ripped to pieces by units that fire from outside defensive structures ranges and force the turtle to send all his units one by one into the meat-grinder of a fortified enemy.

And that's only if you don't get rushed before you're able to get into 'fortress mode' first. Is there really any RTS that rewards turtling?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:To go off-topic, since I dislike DoW too (though for entirely different reasons): How on Earth did you get that notion in your head? Turtling in C&C (this from playing both Red Alerts and Tiberian Sun extensively) will get you having your base ripped to pieces by units that fire from outside defensive structures ranges and force the turtle to send all his units one by one into the meat-grinder of a fortified enemy.

That's why a good defense will include things like artillery units to fire back at invaders who sit outside of defense building range.

As an example, in RA2 I use Prism Tanks to take out rocket which can fire further than my defenses. I never have to go too far out of base to do it, and it's quite easy to hold it for a while.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Nephtys wrote:Resource harassment is important, and the WORST strategy is to hide behind walls and mass troops, unlike most of the C&C's.

To go off-topic, since I dislike DoW too (though for entirely different reasons): How on Earth did you get that notion in your head? Turtling in C&C (this from playing both Red Alerts and Tiberian Sun extensively) will get you having your base ripped to pieces by units that fire from outside defensive structures ranges and force the turtle to send all his units one by one into the meat-grinder of a fortified enemy.

And that's only if you don't get rushed before you're able to get into 'fortress mode' first. Is there really any RTS that rewards turtling?

The first C&C's made turtling great. Tiberian sun actively rewards turtling by making base defense insane (GDI's unstoppable RPG towers come to mind).

Long range? Big deal. Prism tanks can be intercepted at your base perimeter. NOD Artillery can be stopped by firestorm tapping. Soviet V3s are easilly shot down.

Dawn of War really rewards people who try and harass their opponents, since with the way squads are handled, it's possible and won't always be a waste of resources. Sure, it's rushy, but I think it's done well.

I'm with Shep... again. Hmmm.

Everything he says put me off the game too. I didn't want a 40k themed RTS, I wanted a game like the brutal, whole-squads-killed-instantly style fighting from the tabletop. Instead I got '30-seconds of MG fire to kill a guy' and 'some guy with a hammer can kill YOUR WHOLE ARMY because he's got four million hitpoints'. And then WA gave us the 'IG can kill anyone with nade spam' and 'IG are better than Scout Marines' and stuff. That just confirmed to me that it's a RTS with pretty 40k pictures, and not even a serious attempt at 40k battle.

Nephtys wrote:The first C&C's made turtling great. Tiberian sun actively rewards turtling by making base defense insane (GDI's unstoppable RPG towers come to mind).

Long range? Big deal. Prism tanks can be intercepted at your base perimeter. NOD Artillery can be stopped by firestorm tapping. Soviet V3s are easilly shot down.

It's all plausible, but in my online experience aggressive rushing usually prevents the fortress defense, and not all range units are easy to stop.

Stark wrote: 'some guy with a hammer can kill YOUR WHOLE ARMY because he's got four million hitpoints'.

I'd like to single this out because while the others are valid gripes, I've killed Commanders with some support but mostly just a few squads of marines with grenades (use grenades in staggered bursts to knock the dude down and get more time to hose him with heavy weapons) or just use rocket launchers. If you actually have artillery instead of using troops it becomes even more ridiculously easy.

Commanders are really only scary when they battecry in the middle of a huge rush or call down Orbital Fire right on your expensive buildings during a raid or on your armored spearhead as you break through some defenses/troops.

It's a bit micro intensive for DoW to counter a commander attacking your troops and generally being a nuisance, but the preachy dude with the hammer is hardly invincible.

I detest WA myself.

The original was balanced better, but even then I had issues with it.



So what's great about it if you're not into 40k? Well, it does offer some reasonably new stuff to the genre. Squad-based mechanics were, to my knowledge, the sole domain of RTTs prior to DoW. The melee combat and cinematic quality thereof are also much better than the previous X unit moves adjacent to Y unit, plays slash animation ad nauseam method.

I, however, like it primarily as a mod platform. I'm enjoying Dawn of Warhammer 40,000 immensely; it has vastly superior balance IMO, as well as a host of 'new' (i.e., tabletop) units.

Stark wrote:I wanted a game like the brutal, whole-squads-killed-instantly style fighting from the tabletop. Instead I got '30-seconds of MG fire to kill a guy' and 'some guy with a hammer can kill YOUR WHOLE ARMY because he's got four million hitpoints'.

Damn straight. I can understand if standard issue Imperial Guard Lasguns take a bit of time to down a bloodthirsty charging ork it's kind of hard to put a lot of power into something that's relatively manportable like a rifle; but for heavier calibre weapons mounted in buildings, and Imperial Guard vehicles? They should be capable of cutting down orks enmasse and stopping WAAAGH charges cold.

There's nothing that fucks your sense of disbelief like seeing a Chimaera being UNABLE to simply run over Orks; it's a fucking tank for god's sake! We could crush infantry in C&C Tiberian Sun for God's sake; so why does DOW not allow tank squishing? This inevitably leads to a Chimaera surrounded by 20 orks all hacking away at it with axes... and it's unable to get out of the circle of orks, because in DOW world we can't run people over.

It should be noted that Games Workshop specifically asked (or rather, told) Relic that Dawn of War was to be very much your standard RTS. They did not want the computer game to be like the tabletop game, lest anyone get the fool notion that they could forsake the tabletop in favor of the computer (and thus stop shoveling money into GW).

MRDOD wrote:I'd like to single this out because while the others are valid gripes, I've killed Commanders with some support but mostly just a few squads of marines with grenades (use grenades in staggered bursts to knock the dude down and get more time to hose him with heavy weapons) or just use rocket launchers. If you actually have artillery instead of using troops it becomes even more ridiculously easy.

Commanders are really only scary when they battecry in the middle of a huge rush or call down Orbital Fire right on your expensive buildings during a raid or on your armored spearhead as you break through some defenses/troops.

It's a bit micro intensive for DoW to counter a commander attacking your troops and generally being a nuisance, but the preachy dude with the hammer is hardly invincible.

This is fair - I played an early demo of DoR as well, and pre-release the heroes were ridiculously overpowered (if one player build a hero, and the other spent the same money on defences and troops, they hero would wipe out the whole base with ~15% damage). It's still annoying that they took the 40k 'heroes are guys with three whole wounds' to the RTS standard. Stupid tactics to keep knocking them down is both a) stupid (yeah, he's been knocked down ten times but he's only take 25p damage) and b) lame, since one of the good parts of DoR is it's relative lack of micro.

U235, I didn't know that. I would never have bothered playing if I did. Of course GW never wants a game that's as good as the TT, but DoR is so depressingly standard.

DoW is so great because although there are many things that I personally don't like about the game, its still the most fun RTS to play right now (excluding TA, because multiplayer is so hard to do in that game), in my experience. It would be an understatement to say that the RTS genre has been stagnating recently.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And that's only if you don't get rushed before you're able to get into 'fortress mode' first. Is there really any RTS that rewards turtling?

Total Annihilation.

DoW is so great because although there are many things that I personally don't like about the game, its still the most fun RTS to play right now (excluding TA, because multiplayer is so hard to do in that game), in my experience. It would be an understatement to say that the RTS genre has been stagnating recently.

By the looks of it, Supreme Commander is really shaping up to reinvigorate the RTS genre. Its being made by a bunch of the TA creators although its not in the same universe as TA.

Untill then, DoW is fine with me. I mostly like DoW for the fact it has all the fun of Star Craft but with kickass new visuals and the simple fact it was with 40K units.

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And that's only if you don't get rushed before you're able to get into 'fortress mode' first. Is there really any RTS that rewards turtling?

Total Annihilation.

That... depends. It's possible to make a map which would reward a conservative play style, but when I was last an active member of the TA community, all of the best players employed very aggressive strategies to try and throw down as many metal extractors as possible across the map, and to raid/destroy the enemy's extractors. Ultimately, with more of the map controlled, you could easily be cranking out more resources than your opponent and therefore outproduce him to death.

I think it would be more accurate to say that in Total Annihilation, the static defense emplacements can be a worthwhile investment - but are not always so.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And that's only if you don't get rushed before you're able to get into 'fortress mode' first. Is there really any RTS that rewards turtling?

Total Annihilation.

That... depends. It's possible to make a map which would reward a conservative play style, but when I was last an active member of the TA community, all of the best players employed very aggressive strategies to try and throw down as many metal extractors as possible across the map, and to raid/destroy the enemy's extractors. Ultimately, with more of the map controlled, you could easily be cranking out more resources than your opponent and therefore outproduce him to death.

It does depend on the map, I agree. More metal at a starting location would give better rise to porc strategies. Natural fortifications like hills, rivers and mountains can also be used.

The point though is that the map commands what strategy you can employ, which can reward swarmers, porcupines, eagles or octopussies to varying degrees (some maps can only be won using airpower for instance, whereas small land maps with no obstructions like forests or hills can reward swarmers).

I think it would be more accurate to say that in Total Annihilation, the static defense emplacements can be a worthwhile investment - but are not always so.

I've rarely played TA online against real players before. I confess that I can't say no to nuke silos and bertha cannons, and especially Annihilators.

MKSheppard wrote:Damn straight. I can understand if standard issue Imperial Guard Lasguns take a bit of time to down a bloodthirsty charging ork it's kind of hard to put a lot of power into something that's relatively manportable like a rifle; but for heavier calibre weapons mounted in buildings, and Imperial Guard vehicles? They should be capable of cutting down orks enmasse and stopping WAAAGH charges cold.

Sure, but then you'd effectively have modern combat, something 40K has eschewed for a considerable time.

MKSheppard wrote:There's nothing that fucks your sense of disbelief like seeing a Chimaera being UNABLE to simply run over Orks; it's a fucking tank for god's sake! We could crush infantry in C&C Tiberian Sun for God's sake; so why does DOW not allow tank squishing? This inevitably leads to a Chimaera surrounded by 20 orks all hacking away at it with axes... and it's unable to get out of the circle of orks, because in DOW world we can't run people over.

I'll admit that the no running people over thing is a little odd, and it's particularly annoying when you're boxed in by infantry but it's a small price to pay. That is, I prefer it where troops can't be run over. Not because it's realistic, but because I always thought it was lame. Infantry were instantly killable and just couldn't defend themselves from vehicles.

As for commanders, they're not that tough. There are tricks to dealing with them I suggest you try.

I like DoW cause it lets me play with units I've loved for years. Sure it takes a while to get the hang as it's got a lot of differences to most RTS games but a lot of those things create subtle intricacies that add to play far more than skewed representations of firepower might detract. At least for me anyway. Once you stop expecting things to work a certain way you can actually play the game and take advantage of the tools at your disposal.

Stofsk wrote: I've rarely played TA online against real players before. I confess that I can't say no to nuke silos and bertha cannons, and especially Annihilators.

No one can say no to Big Bertha. No one.

I liked Dawn of War because I could beat it. Plain and simple, you have a handful of cheaply made, nigh-invulnerable units that you can sustain indefinately and use to take down anything on the battlefield. At least, that's how it seemed to me.

Frankly, I'm not quick enough to micromanage dozens of small battles simultaneously, and always sucked at C&C because my armies seemed too fragile (largely because I'm not good at RTS games).

In short, Dawn of War is *easy* by comparison to anything else out there.

Ford Prefect wrote:No one can say no to Big Bertha. No one.

One of my favorite strategies was to turtle up, build a radar fire control system, and build a battery of Berthas, the power to keep them firing, and just shell the enemy into impotence

MKSheppard wrote:

Ford Prefect wrote:No one can say no to Big Bertha. No one.

One of my favorite strategies was to turtle up, build a radar fire control system, and build a battery of Berthas, the power to keep them firing, and just shell the enemy into impotence

Then why don't you like DoW and the Deep-Strike rush from hell?

Matt Huang wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:

Ford Prefect wrote:No one can say no to Big Bertha. No one.

One of my favorite strategies was to turtle up, build a radar fire control system, and build a battery of Berthas, the power to keep them firing, and just shell the enemy into impotence

Then why don't you like DoW and the Deep-Strike rush from hell?

I agree, heck in steel legion Guardsmen can deep strike (I fucked up a base with that).

what I personally liked with DOW and especcialy with winter assault was the artillery. I hate RTSs that have arty with ranges only slightly more than that of a standard tank. In DOW basilisks can pound the enemy from miles away conventiently out of the way from the enemy. Not to mention that a sngle shell can break an entire squad.

MKSheppard wrote:One of my favorite strategies was to turtle up, build a radar fire control system, and build a battery of Berthas, the power to keep them firing, and just shell the enemy into impotence

It's very, very satisfying to do it over a span of ocean.