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I'm considering getting involved in 'Warhammer 40,000' on the side of the Imperium. Instead of joining an existing chapter, e.g., the Space Wolves or Black Templars, I'm considering founding my own chapter. Here's the history:

Name: Death Masks

Chapter colors: The chapter symbol is a red ork skull being split by a sword. Typical colors include high-visibility fluorescent paint on armor and equipment for training purposes-- paintballs replace standard bolter ammo in excercises-- and the appropriate camouflage for combat.

Geneseed: Iron Hands

History and Doctrine: After the Imperium's failure to decisively defeat the Tau Empire, the Ordo Xenos felt there was a need to study the tactics and technology of enemy races, and to better train the Space Marines and Imperial Guard on how to defeat these tactics. The Death Masks were founded to be the "OPFOR" in training exercises, visually modifying their armor and equipment to resemble alien and, later, Chaos forces and imitating the tactics thereof so Imperial forces may learn how to fight against these enemies. The Death Masks also use captured and, allegedly, reverse-engineered Tau equipment for such exercises. They've also used alien tactics and equipment in battle against enemies of the Imperium, although the Space Marine and Imperial Guard are often reluctant to fight alongside the Death Masks due to several friendly fire incidents. The Death Masks enjoy the support of high-ranking inquisitors, and their attempts to reverse-engineer alien and Chaos technology and techniques aren't subject to Inquisition scrutiny-- they've allegedly disguised themselves as Chaos and/or xenos forces to assassinate "disloyal" Imperial governors and eliminate human anti-government organizations that enjoy popular support.

Special units: A "Dead Tyrannid" company with armor and weapons, vehicles, and Dreadnoughts modified to resemble Tyrannid units; multiple "Death to Chaos" companies to simulate Chaos legions, including one equipped with Basilisk self-propelled guns to simulate the Iron Warriors; a "Dead Ork" company and a "Dead Eldar" company. The largest company is the "Dead Tau" because the Death Masks commit significant human and material resources to revere-engineer Tau technology. (What can I say? I think Tau battlesuits and hovertanks look cool.)

I would recommend posting this in the 40K thread in Gaming & Computers. You can get much more input from experienced players in there.

Elheru Aran wrote:I would recommend posting this in the 40K thread in Gaming & Computers. You can get much more input from experienced players in there.

Thank you for your advice. (I rarely visit the Gaming forum.) Can a moderator please make the change?

Moved.

Oh, and your chapter is a bunch of heretics just waiting for a purge. Modifying the Most Holy Equipment to look like vile Xenos...that will go well with the AdMech, I'm sure.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Interesting history. Just don't put them on the front lines. Their very existence violates at least 5 unwritten Imperial laws.

Be warned that this army would involve *significant* green-stuffing and otherwise modding. Be pretty damn expensive and time consuming.

May want to talk to your local GW/games store staff; they usually have good input on this kind of thing.

EDIT: And as Fgalkin mentioned, this is a pretty big violation of in-universe rules. The Cursed Founding Chapters are more or less the most extreme out there (Space Wolves aren't that bad, they're just... kooky), and the majority of them were either massacred by other Marine Chapters or put under Inquisitorial scrutiny/sentence.

The idea with a 40K army, see, is to retain credibility in-universe... Uts' pink-hearts Chapter is pushing it a wee bit, and there are certainly several novelty armies out there, but the majority are intended to stay in-universe.

Of course, with an army like yours, you'd basically be able to fight everybody and not have to worry about allying up...

The concept, function, organization, and relation to the Inquisition sounds like it would work far better as a Stormtrooper regiment than an Adeptus Astartes Chapter. Space Marines are a monastic martial order and already have the Deathwatch for serving the Ordo Xenos in alien-hunting crusades. Stormtroopers would be serving the Inquisition more directly and have a more sensible role in utilizing alien technology, and therefore it'd make more sense to implant a rumored Navy Seal force onto them.

Utsanomiko wrote:The concept, function, organization, and relation to the Inquisition sounds like it would work far better as a Stormtrooper regiment than an Adeptus Astartes Chapter.

I didn't know there were "Stormtroopers" or the Imperium equivalent of US Navy SEALs. Thank you for the info. Do the Stormtroopers use power armor and genetic/cybernetic enhancements comparable to the Space Marines?

fgalkin wrote:Oh, and your chapter is a bunch of heretics just waiting for a purge. Modifying the Most Holy Equipment to look like vile Xenos...that will go well with the AdMech, I'm sure.

The US military frequently visually modify their equipment-- painting aircraft with camouflage patterns used by Soviet/Russian aircraft, attaching panels to tanks so their silhouettes resemble Soviet/Russian tanks, etc.-- for training purposes. I'm just copying the doctrines of real-world militaries.

Elheru Aran wrote:Be warned that this army would involve *significant* green-stuffing and otherwise modding. Be pretty damn expensive and time consuming.

May want to talk to your local GW/games store staff; they usually have good input on this kind of thing.

Thanks for the advice. I guess I should start with the Black Templars first, or maybe join the forces of Chaos.

EDIT: And as Fgalkin mentioned, this is a pretty big violation of in-universe rules. The Cursed Founding Chapters are more or less the most extreme out there (Space Wolves aren't that bad, they're just... kooky), and the majority of them were either massacred by other Marine Chapters or put under Inquisitorial scrutiny/sentence.

As noted, the Inquisition supports the Death Masks' actions because the chapter serves as a useful death squad when plausible deniability is required, e.g., when a popular figure speaks out against an inquisitor's actions and the Inquisition must silence this figure without leaving evidence that they're responsible for the figure's death.

Sidewinder wrote:

EDIT: And as Fgalkin mentioned, this is a pretty big violation of in-universe rules. The Cursed Founding Chapters are more or less the most extreme out there (Space Wolves aren't that bad, they're just... kooky), and the majority of them were either massacred by other Marine Chapters or put under Inquisitorial scrutiny/sentence.

As noted, the Inquisition supports the Death Masks' actions because the chapter serves as a useful death squad when plausible deniability is required, e.g., when a popular figure speaks out against an inquisitor's actions and the Inquisition must silence this figure without leaving evidence that they're responsible for the figure's death.

This is why the Officio Assassinorum exists.

Pick your poison: Vindicare for long-range sniping, Callidus for infiltration and personal execution with C'tan phase sword, Eversor for mass destruction, and Culexus to really fuck up psykers....

Elheru Aran wrote:The idea with a 40K army, see, is to retain credibility in-universe... Uts' pink-hearts Chapter is pushing it a wee bit, and there are certainly several novelty armies out there, but the majority are intended to stay in-universe.

Can I have the link to the thread on the Pink Hearts Space Marines chapter, for reference when I decide to found my own chapter?

Sidewinder wrote:

Utsanomiko wrote:The concept, function, organization, and relation to the Inquisition sounds like it would work far better as a Stormtrooper regiment than an Adeptus Astartes Chapter.

I didn't know there were "Stormtroopers" or the Imperium equivalent of US Navy SEALs. Thank you for the info. Do the Stormtroopers use power armor and genetic/cybernetic enhancements comparable to the Space Marines?

No, they are normal humans with full-body carapace armor. Only Space Marines use geneseed implants, and the only other major Imparial force using power armor I know of is the Adepta Sororitas, although theirs is unpowered and lacks life-support and neural control.

The US military frequently visually modify their equipment-- painting aircraft with camouflage patterns used by Soviet/Russian aircraft, attaching panels to tanks so their silhouettes resemble Soviet/Russian tanks, etc.-- for training purposes. I'm just copying the doctrines of real-world militaries.

Then apply them to actual military bodies and not holy crusaders. The US military doesn't wear colored heraldry, purity seals, or censers. They also can't see in the dark, eat the flesh of their enemies, or consider themselves to be the God-Emperor's flesh on the battlefield.

As noted, the Inquisition supports the Death Masks' actions because the chapter serves as a useful death squad when plausible deniability is required, e.g., when a popular figure speaks out against an inquisitor's actions and the Inquisition must silence this figure without leaving evidence that they're responsible for the figure's death.

Without leaving evidence for whom?! When the Inquisition wants someone eliminated, they bomb them into radioactive ash and let the Imperium know they deserved it, praise the Emperor. Dealing with traitors and heretics is the Ordo Hereticus' job anyway, and wouldn't fall under a pet group of Ordo Xenos (who would stick with the Deathwatch anyway).

Utsanomiko wrote:

Sidewinder wrote:

Utsanomiko wrote:The concept, function, organization, and relation to the Inquisition sounds like it would work far better as a Stormtrooper regiment than an Adeptus Astartes Chapter.

I didn't know there were "Stormtroopers" or the Imperium equivalent of US Navy SEALs. Thank you for the info. Do the Stormtroopers use power armor and genetic/cybernetic enhancements comparable to the Space Marines?

No, they are normal humans with full-body carapace armor. Only Space Marines use geneseed implants, and the only other major Imparial force using power armor I know of is the Adepta Sororitas, although theirs is unpowered and lacks life-support and neural control.

Minor correction: The Sororitas' power armour, and other armours like the ones used by various Inqusitors, *are* powered. The difference is, as you mentioned, they don't have life support or direct muscular/neutral control. However, the armour does increase strength enough to the point that the Adepta Sororitas use Astartes bolters and heavy weapons, which would be difficult if they weren't powered...

Utsanomiko wrote:

As noted, the Inquisition supports the Death Masks' actions because the chapter serves as a useful death squad when plausible deniability is required, e.g., when a popular figure speaks out against an inquisitor's actions and the Inquisition must silence this figure without leaving evidence that they're responsible for the figure's death.

Without leaving evidence for whom?! When the Inquisition wants someone eliminated, they bomb them into radioactive ash and let the Imperium know they deserved it, praise the Emperor. Dealing with traitors and heretics is the Ordo Hereticus' job anyway, and wouldn't fall under a pet group of Ordo Xenos (who would stick with the Deathwatch anyway).

Good point. Okay, I'll change the Death Masks' history so so they'll be an OPFOR unit whose members are veterans recruited from other Space Marine chapters, and limit the reverse-engineering as the actions of a small number of techmarines. (Of course, these techmarines will be VERY good at covering their tracks and convincing others to look in the other direction.)

Sidewinder wrote:

fgalkin wrote:Oh, and your chapter is a bunch of heretics just waiting for a purge. Modifying the Most Holy Equipment to look like vile Xenos...that will go well with the AdMech, I'm sure.

The US military frequently visually modify their equipment-- painting aircraft with camouflage patterns used by Soviet/Russian aircraft, attaching panels to tanks so their silhouettes resemble Soviet/Russian tanks, etc.-- for training purposes. I'm just copying the doctrines of real-world militaries.

Yeah...but see, the very nature of your chapter would mean that you'd have to kill everyone who's ever fought with them, or seen them. To the more puritan members of the Inquisition, you've essentially transcended heresy and reached some sort of new level of blasphemy against the God-Emperor.


I'm just saying, is all.

Sidewinder wrote:Good point. Okay, I'll change the Death Masks' history so so they'll be an OPFOR unit whose members are veterans recruited from other Space Marine chapters, and limit the reverse-engineering as the actions of a small number of techmarines. (Of course, these techmarines will be VERY good at covering their tracks and convincing others to look in the other direction.)

Well then you basically just have the Death Watch under another name.

Sidewinder wrote:

Utsanomiko wrote:The concept, function, organization, and relation to the Inquisition sounds like it would work far better as a Stormtrooper regiment than an Adeptus Astartes Chapter.

I didn't know there were "Stormtroopers" or the Imperium equivalent of US Navy SEALs. Thank you for the info. Do the Stormtroopers use power armor and genetic/cybernetic enhancements comparable to the Space Marines?

Stormtroopers are the elites of the Imperial Guard. They're not so much SEALs as 'Republican Guard' or (shock!) 'Sturmtruppen'.

fgalkin wrote:Oh, and your chapter is a bunch of heretics just waiting for a purge. Modifying the Most Holy Equipment to look like vile Xenos...that will go well with the AdMech, I'm sure.

The US military frequently visually modify their equipment-- painting aircraft with camouflage patterns used by Soviet/Russian aircraft, attaching panels to tanks so their silhouettes resemble Soviet/Russian tanks, etc.-- for training purposes. I'm just copying the doctrines of real-world militaries.

That... is why you fail.

What you are suggesting is roughly equivalent to proposing the idea that hardline fundamentalist Muslim soldiers would dress up in the dripping carcasses of swine and bind the Koran in pigskin, while a bunch of Catholic priests mixed the Holy Eucharist with diesel fuel and grass fertiliser for use as a weapon. This is not a question of disguise; it is a matter of the most foul desecration imaginable.

It seems to me, Sidewinder, like you should review your 40K fluff a bit more. The way the Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Mechanicus, and others operate, seems to have escaped you slightly. The thing is, no Marine/Techmarine would allow their armour's (both power and vehicle) machine spirits to be so offended by descerating it. This is also why the Marines never wear camoflague, incidentally; their Chapter colours are highly important, and should they be obscured, the machine spirit will be angered and the armour won't function properly.

I could probably go on, but I would counsel you to check up on the various 40K threads around the board, and look up some of the books to get a better understanding. Just grabbing the rulebook and the Marines codex and a few figures and reckoning you can start off in a big way won't do you any good; you can start fine that way, but if you bugger the universe six ways from Sunday, the people who you play with won't appreciate it. And considering that you *will* want to use these, instead of just stickin them on a shelf or under a case...

I'd say that having guardsmen/penal battalions operating as an OPFOR is far more likely.

To be fair, Astartes (excluding the most radical, such as Black Templars) are very practical and relatively pragmatic sorts. While I don't think Sidewinder's idea is totally plausible, it isn't outside 40k's vast leeway in terms of army customization to give Marines camouflage or have one's Chapter be less superstitious. After all, the Astartes are one of the least religious elements in all the Imperium; most don't even consider the Emperor a deity.

Granted, such a pragmatic Chapter would certainly deviate significantly from the Codex, and wouldn't be very good pals with the Ultramarines, no say nothing of the loony Chapters, the Inquisition, and Adeptus Mechanicus. Said Chapter would likely have less help from all of them - consider the drawbacks We Stand Alone and Flesh Over Steel, as well as not using many Techmarines, to represent the lack of support such a Chapter would receive.

EDIT: For the record, Sororitas power armor does have some life support capability, as it does offer limited protection from hard vacuum.

Also, there are many different kinds of Stormtroopers. The Inquisitorial and Schola Progenium varieties are very much Delta Force types.

Well, my Chapter (The Varangians) are of Ultramarine stock, and Codex. Of course, they also got in trouble for first backing he wrong horse during the age of apostasy, and then sitting the conclusion of it out after everyone dogpiled on Vandire.

As an after thought, just to put the whole OPFOR training thing to rest:

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. What's the pointing of expending a hideous amount of resources (an entire Astartes Chapter, Inquisitorial scrutiny, vast amounts of xenotechnology, and some titantic logistical concerns) on what is little more than a pet project? Chapters are self-reliant and would scoff at using this OPFOR training, all but the most valuable of Guard units would be wasted on the exercises and wouldn't gain an appreciable boost from them anyways, Sisters' jaws would collectively drop at the sheer magnitude of heresy and then purge the offending participants, and so on and so forth.

In short, not only is it just plain infeasible, it isn't effective. Transplanting modern doctrine is all well and good, but unfortunately the 41st millenium is a wee bit shy of 'modern.'

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:As an after thought, just to put the whole OPFOR training thing to rest:

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. What's the pointing of expending a hideous amount of resources (an entire Astartes Chapter, Inquisitorial scrutiny, vast amounts of xenotechnology, and some titantic logistical concerns) on what is little more than a pet project? Chapters are self-reliant and would scoff at using this OPFOR training, all but the most valuable of Guard units would be wasted on the exercises and wouldn't gain an appreciable boost from them anyways, Sisters' jaws would collectively drop at the sheer magnitude of heresy and then purge the offending participants, and so on and so forth.

In short, not only is it just plain infeasible, it isn't effective. Transplanting modern doctrine is all well and good, but unfortunately the 41st millenium is a wee bit shy of 'modern.'

Change in plans:

"Death to the False Emperor!"

I'm establishing an Iron Warriors company that uses captured/reverse-engineered Tau equipment. (As noted, I think Tau battlesuits and hovertanks look cool.)

Sidewinder wrote: Change in plans:

"Death to the False Emperor!"

I'm establishing an Iron Warriors company that uses captured/reverse-engineered Tau equipment. (As noted, I think Tau battlesuits and hovertanks look cool.)

Uh, maybe you should...

...nah, I'll let someone else tell you.

Maybe you should, you know, play Tau, since you like them so much?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Nah, play a Goff warband wiv plenty o' lootas. Since your army concept seems to be "I want to use all the kool stuff, no matter who it actually belongs to!"

Of course, you'd have to make things all a bit more orky, but a Tau battlesuit wiv some proper shootas stuck on an' painted red would probably look quite natty.